Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

1,006 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, mako1 said:

Also, certain diesel 4 autos without particle filters have a grün plakatte and are exempt from the current ban but will be banned in the future (Lupo 3L) which is a shame.

 

The Lupo 3L gets a special treatment because it is a "Three Liter Car", that's the 3L in its name.   It has a small engine and it was super efficient for its time, the Lupo was produced from 1999 to 2005.  The Three Liter Cars was a program created by the government to incentivize the production of small efficient cars, they were called Umweltautos (environmental cars).      The mega star of the program was the VW Lupo 3L, you can't then 4 years later take away everything and give them a yellow sticker.

 

More info (In German):  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niedrigenergiefahrzeug

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Krieg,

 

Just to further clarify the Lupo 3L:  The 3L refers to the amount of fuel used per 100km, not the engine size.  The Lupo 3L has a 1.2L turbocharged diesel engine.  

 

S. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Krieg said:

Plus ICEs are not dead yet, hybrids are giving new life to them.  

The only reason Hybrids still sell in decent numbers is because of company car tax. As soon as it ends (already did in Netherlands and other countries), hybrids die.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Europe for the past 5 years the majority is for company cars. Just check the garage of any company.

 

And the people who used to buy Prius for the eco argument have moved on to true eco-cars, i.e. EVs.

Prius (non-plugin) was more polluting than equivalent european and asian petrol cars. It only made sense in the US landscape.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I was speaking of the U.S. My bad.

 

I rented a very nice Ford hybrid over there some years ago. Thought if I lived there, I'd buy one.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

I said a new ICE, 40K may buy you an EV but for example it won't buy you much of a BMW SUV and and many other ICE vehicles on the market. When you consider the huge loss of resale value currently and possibly even worse in the future of an ICE compared to an EV its a no brainer!

And he said the people who buy new ICEs do it because of the 40k cost of an EV.You never said anything about BMWs or SUVs so I´m not sure where you´re coming from with your argument.

Yes the TCO is probably less from an EV than an ICE but in many people´s cases that doesn´t come into play.It´s the same with many things in life in that you can´t afford it now then you´re left with cheaper stuff that in the end costs you more.Vimes Boot Theory.

22 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I just can't figure where you are coming from or heading to when you post such apparently opposing views in two consecutive posts!:blink: Is the banning of new ICE sales in 2030 not one of those a massive changes we need?

I´m saying we all know the world is heading down the fucked up path but how many people are actually able or willing to do much about it.

How far are YOU prepared to go, are you willing to drastically alter your lifestyle?

22 hours ago, keith2011 said:

And this:-:rolleyes:

 

People aren´t buying EVs in droves because they´re so fucking expensive.

Everyones first love Tesla makes massive profits (Ask MM he´s always raving about their profit margin) yet their cars are extortionately priced so no excuses that the tech to build them etc costs more (It does for now in the case of ICE manufacturers retooling to build them but that will pay off)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Keleth said:

And he said the people who buy new ICEs do it because of the 40k cost of an EV.You never said anything about BMWs or SUVs so I´m not sure where you´re coming from with your argument.

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of new ICEs on the market place that cost more than 40K so why are they still selling? Certainly not because the buyers can't afford the 40K for a new EV!

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

I´m saying we all know the world is heading down the fucked up path but how many people are actually able or willing to do much about it.

How far are YOU prepared to go, are you willing to drastically alter your lifestyle?

 

I still don't get your argument you say governments need to make big changes but when they do you you complain that it is the common people who must bear the brunt and pay or not in the case of EVs and then preach that everyone must drastically change their lifestyle and accept higher prices for things. There is no logic there!

Quote

Everyone knows the problem, but we the "common" people cannot do a great deal to change it. It needs massive changes at govt and commercial levels which is almost impossible and it needs the public to accept greater costs for things, and more inconvenience, basically changing everyones lifestyle.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of new ICEs on the market place that cost more than 40K so why are they still selling? Certainly not because the buyers can't afford the 40K for a new EV!

 

Compare a 40k ICE to a 40k EV.

If you can afford the 40k for a new car then resale value isn´t going to worry you be it ICE or EV.

7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

pay or not in the case of EVs

We have the choice at the moment but come 2035 we won´t have that choice anymore. We just need to hope that the 2nd hand market in EVs is flourishing and they´re cheap.

7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I still don't get your argument you say governments need to make big changes but when they do you you complain that it is the common people who must bear the brunt and pay

Because we´re being made to bear the brunt of it, industry and commercial are not, although they´re by far the greater polluters. We have to save their profits by making us pay more for stuff rather than sharing the burden.

How much extra tax are you willing to pay to provide public transport to make it a viable alternative to people driving in cities?

How much extra are you willing to pay for your everyday items to enable businesses and their shareholders to keep their profits in line, because there is no way they´re going to reduce profit for becoming environmentally friendly?

How much tax are you willing to pay to invest in continually trying to find new battery technology, yes better than fossil fuels but still nowhere near "clean"?

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Because we´re being made to bear the brunt of it, industry and commercial are not, although they´re by far the greater polluters. We have to save their profits by making us pay more for stuff rather than sharing the burden.

How much extra tax are you willing to pay to provide public transport to make it a viable alternative to people driving in cities?

How much extra are you willing to pay for your everyday items to enable businesses and their shareholders to keep their profits in line, because there is no way they´re going to reduce profit for becoming environmentally friendly?

How much tax are you willing to pay to invest in continually trying to find new battery technology, yes better than fossil fuels but still nowhere near "clean"?

 

You should try climbing down from your soapbox it seems the lack of oxygen up there is effecting your ability to think logically!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of new ICEs on the market place that cost more than 40K so why are they still selling? Certainly not because the buyers can't afford the 40K for a new EV!

 

I assume you are not a car person if you are asking this.  The current EV market is divided in two, first there is Tesla that has all the great technology in batteries, battery management system, electric motors, software, and not really great clima control but they are still ahead of the others (heating is the Achilles of all EVs), but when it comes to the car itself, there are lot of quality problems like panels misaligned, and the interiors are not great.   Then you have the other side, the traditional makers, they have great cars because they know how to built them, but their EV technology is behind and their software is crap.   So a person who usually buys a 40k or 60k car would look at EVs and will think:    A Tesla of the same price is really a compromise, the interior is for peasants.   Then the person will look at the equivalent EV in his favorite brand and for a similar car instead of 40k or 60k, the price would be 70k or 100k, and then the EV technology is deficient.   There are brands like Hyundai and KIA trying to close the gap with the IONIQ and EV6s, but they were never seen as a premium brand, so a car person will think:  60k for a Hyundai crossover?  Are you crazy?

 

The perfect EV would be to take a Tesla drivetrain and software and pass it to Mercedes, BMW or VW and ask them to build the rest.  But such thing do not exist and if it existed it would be expensive.

 

53 minutes ago, Keleth said:

We have the choice at the moment but come 2035 we won´t have that choice anymore. We just need to hope that the 2nd hand market in EVs is flourishing and they´re cheap.

 

I am very pessimistic here, for this to happen we will need some new technologies that make batteries dramatically cheaper.   The price of the battery in an EV can be more than half of the retail price of the car, so swapping the battery in an old car might become financially complicated.   We can already see this effect with the tons of old Nissan Leafs with unusable batteries that are being trashed because it makes no sense to replace their batteries.    Current technology is a bit better than what happened to those Leafs, but still I don't see current EVs having a life longer than 12 to 20 years without battery replacement.   And cheap second hand cars is the only way plenty of people have access to cars, if that option is taken away it will be horrible.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

You should try climbing down from your soapbox it seems the lack of oxygen up there is effecting your ability to think logically!

 

You have to think some people do not have much money.

 

Some people buy a second hand ICE car for several hundred or a thousand or 2 Euro's because they do not have 40K in the bank to spend. 10 year old car etc, with  a TUV. Of course other users on here, will think they could not drive a 10 year old car and choose a more expensive one, but then they have the money for it.

 

I agree with krieg, that it if costs 10 or 20 K to  replace the battery after 12 years, these kind of people buying old ICE cars will not be able to afford to drive a car anymore, or take other measures to cut spending in other areas.  That may impact the economy if it happens to enough people.

 

All Keith is saying, is that yes he wants clean air ( through Government laws ) but it needs to be done in a way, that it does not mess up the lives of people who cannot afford the more expensive EV's way of life. I hate the smell of diesel too. But at some level, I do not want a lot of poor people to become worse off, because they cannot afford the EV way of life. 

.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, yesterday said:

You have to think some people do not have much money.

 

Of course I do, I don't have 40k in the bank either when I last got a new car it was via a leasing contract, so basically paying by instalments like most people! There will always be people who can't afford a new car or indeed any car. At present EVs are expensive and in short supply which in the near term means both new and used will not be coming down in price much. That will change!

The same was  said regarding the ban on incandescent light bulbs, "LEDs are 10 times more expensive and the energy saver florescent ones are bad for the environment because they contain mercury" "We shouldn't be asking the common people to pay more". Yet here we are a few years later with LED light bulbs that never seem to need changing and consume up to 90% less power than their equivalent incandescent versions. Not only that but with such a big market place resulting from the ban the price has dropped considerably and the options and features available now far exceed those of the old technology. I suggest we will see much the same kind of change in the EV market!

I do share your concern regarding battery life and replacement cost but that should not be a show stopper for the ICE ban although ultimately if a solution is not found EVs could end up as a dead end but alternatives will be found.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Company bosses passed a brick today when they realized, that from next wednesday on our technicians cant drive into Munich in their diesel cars...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, slammer said:

Company bosses passed a brick today when they realized, that from next wednesday on our technicians cant drive into Munich in their diesel cars...

Munich rules:

Nope, Handwerker are exempted until 31.03.2024.

So you would only have a problem starting with April 1st, 2024 (no, that's not a joke).

Source: https://www.hwk-muenchen.de/artikel/diesel-fahrverbot-in-muenchen-mit-ausnahmen-fuer-das-handwerk-74,0,11077.html

  • Far-reaching exemptions for Handwerker
     

    Handwerker vehicles without a Handwerker parking permit
    For stages 1 and 2, i.e. until 31 March 2024, a general exemption (indicated by signage) applies to residents, Handwerker and delivery traffic.

    In the FAQs of the City of Munich under point 5, this general exemption is specified for customer and delivery traffic within the Low Emission Zone.
    This general exemption for the affected tradesmen and delivery traffic is thus valid until 31 March 2024 without the need for separate applications from your side.


    Note
    "Delivery traffic" is understood to be the business transport of goods when these are delivered to tradespeople or customers. Delivery traffic also includes journeys by tradesmen as well as construction vehicles that are used as workshop vehicles or for transporting tools or materials and absolutely have to be on site.

    An exemption permit is not required due to the signage until 31.03.2024.

    Handwerker with a Munich Handwerker parking permit may also drive into the designated extended environmental zone even after 31.03.2024.
    Craftsmen without a craftsman parking permit valid will - if they want to drive in the Low Emission Zone after 31.03.2024 - have apply for an individual exemption permit (muenchen.de/infos/umweltzone-muenchen.html).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Krieg said:

  A Tesla of the same price is really a compromise, the interior is for peasants.  

For peasants? LOL. I prefer my Tesla's interior ANY TIME to a Mercedes! I should know, I have both!

Better AC, better music, better seats, better usability, better SW, more space, glass roof, no cluttering. 

People are still attached to the image that "luxury" is well stitched leader. Don't be fooled. 

Luxury is doing an 8h trip on a Tesla and coming out as fresh as in a 1h with a Mercedes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

Munich rules:

Nope, Handwerker are exempted until 31.03.2024.


 

But only if you have applied for a permit, even with a Handwerkerausweis, you still need the permit, costs (I think) 60 Euros p.a. 

Guess who hasnt applied for said permit..

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

For peasants? LOL. I prefer my Tesla's interior ANY TIME to a Mercedes! I should know, I have both!

Better AC, better music, better seats, better usability, better SW, more space, glass roof, no cluttering. 

People are still attached to the image that "luxury" is well stitched leader. Don't be fooled. 

Luxury is doing an 8h trip on a Tesla and coming out as fresh as in a 1h with a Mercedes.

Of course... All those stops for recharging will leave you rested and fresh.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, slammer said:

But only if you have applied for a permit, even with a Handwerkerausweis, you still need the permit, 

Nope. Up till 31.03.2024, you just need to be a Handwerker. So if stopped by the police, you simply point to the tools of your trade that you are transporting in your car and that's it.

It's an automatic exemption for Handwerker and deliveries.

 

Please read the legalese in the "Allgemeinverfügung der Landeshauptstadt München": https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:34fa0db3-ab88-4792-a2d2-69b6bc678322/221222_Ausnahmekonzept.pdf

  • Pursuant to § 40 para. 1 BImSchG in conjunction with § 1 para. 2 of the 35th BImSchV, by virtue of this general exemption, motor vehicles with diesel engines may also enter the environmental zone with emission class Euro 5/V and worse for the following purposes:  
    ...
    1.2. journeys by the following vehicles or journeys for the following purposes  
    ...
    b. Handwerker vehicles whose use as a workshop vehicle or for the transport of tools and materials is absolutely necessary, limited until 31.03.2024. The prerequisite is also that the craftsman's business is listed in the Craftsman's Code ( Annex A or B ) or it is a comparable activity (e.g. maintenance service, installation of large equipment). 

Most types of Handwerker are not listed in Anlage A and B of the Handwerksordnung (the professions listed in there are a bit antiquated, when did you last see a "well builder", "wooden she (clog) maker" or a "fabric painter" at work?).

Common professions are missing, for example the gardener (Gärtner).

--> most Handwerker will have to go the "comparable activity" route.

 

Anlage A der Handwerksordnung: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/hwo/anlage_a.html

  • Number     
     1 Bricklayers and concrete workers
     2 Stove and air heating fitters
     3 Carpenter
     4 Roofer
     5 Road builders
     6 Heat, cold and noise insulators
     7 Well builders
     8 Stonemasons and stone sculptors
     9 Plasterers
    10 Painters and varnishers
    11 Scaffolders
    12 Chimney sweepers
    13 Metal workers
    14 Mechanic for surgical tools
    15 Car body and vehicle mechanic
    16 Precision mechanic
    17 Two-wheeler mechanic
    18 Refrigeration plant fitter
    19 Information technician
    20 Motor vehicle technician
    21 Agricultural and construction machinery mechatronics technician
    22 Gunsmith
    23 Plumber
    24 Plumber and heating engineer
    25 Electrician
    26 Builder of electrical machines
    27 Carpenter
    28 Boat and ship builders
    29 Ropers
    30 Bakers
    31 Confectioners
    32 Butchers
    33 Opticians
    34 Hearing aid acoustician
    35 Orthopaedic technician
    36 Orthopaedic shoemaker
    37 Dental technician
    38 Hairdressers
    39 Glaziers
    40 Glassblowers and glass apparatus makers
    41 Mechanic for tyre and vulcanisation technology
    42 Tile, slab and mosaic layers
    43 Stone and terrazzo masons
    44 Screed layer
    45 Tank and apparatus builders
    46 Parquet layers
    47 Roller shutter and sun protection technicians
    48 Wood turner (ivory carver) and wooden toy maker
    49 Cooper
    50 Glass finisher
    51 Sign and illuminated sign makers
    52 Interior decorators
    53 Organ and harmonium builders

Anlage B der Handwerksordnung: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/hwo/anlage_b.html

  • Section 1
    Crafts not subject to licensing
    Number     
     1 Not applicable
     2 Deleted
     3 Deleted
     4 Not applicable
     5 Watchmakers
     6 Engravers
     7 Metal formers
     8 Electroplaters
     9 Metal and bell founders
    10 Precision toolmakers
    11 Goldsmiths and silversmiths
    12 not applicable
    13 not applicable
    14 Model maker
    15 not applicable
    16 Wood sculptor
    17 not applicable
    18 Basket and wickerwork maker
    19 Tailor
    20 Textile designers (embroiderers, weavers, lace makers, trimmers, knitters)
    21 milliners
    22 (omitted)
    23 Sailmakers
    24 Furrier
    25 Shoemakers
    26 Saddlers and fine bag-makers
    27 omitted
    28 Millers
    29 Brewers and maltsters
    30 Wine cooper
    31 Textile cleaners
    32 Candlemaker
    33 Building cleaner
    34 not applicable
    35 Precision optician
    36 Glass and porcelain painters
    37 Gem cutters and engravers
    38 Photographers
    39 Bookbinders
    40 Print and media technologists (printers, screen printers, flexographers)
    41 not applicable
    42 not applicable
    43 Ceramists
    44 not applicable
    45 Piano and harpsichord makers
    46 Hand-pulled instrument maker
    47 Violin maker
    48 Bow maker
    49 Metal wind instrument maker
    50 Woodwind instrument maker
    51 Plucked instrument maker
    52 Gilder
    53 not applicable
    54 Wood and building preservationist (wall preservation and wood impregnation in buildings)
    55 Undertaker
    56 Beauticians

  •  

     

    Section 2
    Crafts similar to crafts
    Number     
     1 Ironworkers
     2 Building drying trade
     3 Floor layers
     4 Asphalt layers (excluding road construction)
     5 Joint fitters (in building construction)
     6 Not applicable
     7 Pile driving (pile driving in hydraulic engineering)
     8 Concrete drillers and cutters
     9 Theatre and scenery painters
    10 Manufacture of custom-made wire frames for decorative purposes
    11 Metal grinder and metal polisher
    12 Metal saw sharpeners
    13 Tank protection companies (corrosion protection of oil tanks for combustion plants without chemical processes)
    14 Vehicle recyclers
    15 Pipe and sewer cleaners
    16 Cable layers in building construction (without connection work)
    17 Wooden shoe (clog) makers
    18 Wood blockmaker
    19 Stave carpenter
    20 Wooden ladder maker (special production)
    21 Trough hewer
    22 Wooden hoop maker
    23 Wood shingle maker
    24 Fitting of standardised prefabricated building components (e.g. windows, doors, frames, shelves)
    25 Brush and paintbrush makers
    26 Men's outerwear ironers
    27 Decoration sewers (excluding window dressers)
    28 Spotted carpet makers
    29 (omitted)
    30 Theatrical costume makers
    31 Pleated stitchers
    32 (omitted)
    33 Fabric painter
    34 (omitted)
    35 Textile hand printer
    36 Artisan stuffers
    37 Alteration tailor
    38 Glove maker
    39 Carrying out simple shoe repairs
    40 Tanner
    41 Offal butcher (Kuttler)
    42 Ice-cream maker (with distribution of ice-cream with usual accessories)
    43 Meat cutters, boners
    44 Appreteurs, decorators
    45 Dry cleaners
    46 Carpet cleaners
    47 Beverage line cleaners
    48 not applicable
    49 Make-up artists
    50 not applicable
    51 Lampshade manufacturer (custom-made)
    52 Piano tuner
    53 Theatre sculptor
    54 Props makers
    55 Umbrella makers
    56 Stone printer
    57 Drum makers
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

You should try climbing down from your soapbox it seems the lack of oxygen up there is effecting your ability to think logically!

Ok.

We should just accept things and not complain. You´re the sort of person govts and commercial interests love.

Nicely done on sidestepping the questions btw.

16 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Not only that but with such a big market place resulting from the ban the price has dropped considerably and the options and features available now far exceed those of the old technology. I suggest we will see much the same kind of change in the EV market!

This applies to the market for cars over the last god knows how many years but the price hasn´t dropped consistently, yes you get better for your money but the buy price still remains the big obstacle.

The big thing with LED is that although more expensive initially they last a lot longer, are you willing to say that for EVs?

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now