Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

1,039 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, GoBike said:

My house requires 3000l of heating oil a year. I could never use that amount in my car. How much red Diesel is sold each year in Frankfurt? Then pop over to the airport and calculate the Diesel they use on take-off. Only the legal aspects of Tax stop you from using Jet fuel or heating oil in the car. Thats why the Zoll checks what's in your tank.

No no no, you don´t understand.

It´s us normal everyday citizens who are fucking the world up, it´s not commercial interests etc.

We are to blame for everything.

 

Seriously, driving EVs in built-up areas is going to help pollution in those areas but it is a mere drop in the ocean in the whole scheme of things. Same as plastic straws and packaging etc.

Until the industrial uses for plastic etc are sorted out, we´re just pissing in the wind as regards the whole environmental problem.

But as usual, it is us that is made to bear the brunt of changes.

I´m not just blaming govts for this, it´s us as a civilization.It´s not as easy as just changing how we do and manufacture things because that´s not an easy or even possible thing to do.

How far are we prepared to go to reduce emissions?

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16 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

 

 

Most of the buses round here these days are either hybrid or full EVs and anyway commercial diesel vehicles, e.g. buses and LKVs are subject to much higher standards than cars, I read somewhere that a diesel bus actually produces less pollution than a diesel SUV!

So don't blame public transport and don't forget the trains and trams are also electric.

 

Munich has over 400 diesel busses   https://getbybus.com/en/blog/bus-munich/#:~:text=The%20main%20role%20of%20the,no%20subway%20or%20tram%20access.

 

To date line #144  and  #100    has 12 Electric busses   https://insideevs.com/news/451713/munich-first-fully-electric-bus-line/    It now has 21 electric busses

To date Munich has 45 Hybrid busses   https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/45-citaro-articulated-hybrid-buses-for-mvg-munich/

 

Its planned to complete the transition  by around 2030, which I fully support, but I am not sure that I would want to throw away a brand new diesel 6 bus, just for the sake of it

 

You must live on a particular route, for it to be " either hybrid or full EVs", but most people do not.

 

 

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1 hour ago, mako1 said:

https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:6d202d29-a9f5-4228-a0d0-8ab94bdc7fa4/221123_NO2-Messungen_Q3_2022_Tabelle.pdf

 

They measure in multiple areas.

Blame the automobile industry and automobile fetish of the conservative parties in Germany, not cities who are required (unlike auto manufacturers) to follow EU rules.

 

 

Your comment confused me.  Those numbers in that PDF are excellent and would suggest that a ban is not needed.

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5 hours ago, Keleth said:

Until the industrial uses for plastic etc are sorted out, we´re just pissing in the wind as regards the whole environmental problem.

But as usual, it is us that is made to bear the brunt of changes.

If the general public who are the end consumer are not made aware of the problem there will never be change.

 

3 hours ago, yesterday said:

Its planned to complete the transition  by around 2030, which I fully support, but I am not sure that I would want to throw away a brand new diesel 6 bus, just for the sake of it

 

You must live on a particular route, for it to be " either hybrid or full EVs", but most people do not.

 

I am on the 52 route so maybe I'm lucky but those on other routes still benefit from the much higher spec. and lower pollution levels of commercial diesel buses without even considering the per passenger ratio compared to a diesel SUV with just the driver (typical in the morning rush hour when the highest levels of pollution tend to occur and the buses are full)!

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39 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

 

Your comment confused me.  Those numbers in that PDF are excellent and would suggest that a ban is not needed.

 

Those numbers don't reflect the EU directive which I think are 25 μg/m3 . Probably the table numbers are the allowable in Germany/from the auto lobby. Doesn't mean we can't do better.

https://environment.ec.europa.eu/topics/air_en

There they estimate EU financial losses due to air pollution at 330 billion euro and 300k premature EU deaths due to fine particulate matter.

For a comparison, Australia allows 8 μg/m3 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates#Size,_shape_and_solubility_matter

 

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14 minutes ago, mako1 said:

 

Those numbers don't reflect the EU directive which I think are 25 μg/m3 . Probably the table numbers are the allowable in Germany/from the auto lobby. Doesn't mean we can't do better.

https://environment.ec.europa.eu/topics/air_en

There they estimate EU financial losses due to air pollution at 330 billion euro and 300k premature EU deaths due to fine particulate matter.

For a comparison, Australia allows 8 μg/m3 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates#Size,_shape_and_solubility_matter

 

 

The PDF you posted has the values for Nitrogen Dioxide and the limit is 40 μg/m3 average a year and up to 200 μg/min an hour.

 

The limit of 25 μg/mis for fine particles, that's not what the table is about.

 

And I would assume they posted the table for Nitrogen Dioxide because it is the only one that can be in theory influenced a lot by diesel.  So they are cherry picking and still the situation is not bad at all.

 

Any diesel car with a green sticker has already a fine particle filter.   And the ones without a green sticker are not allowed in the low emissions zone since 2008.

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3 hours ago, mako1 said:

https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:6d202d29-a9f5-4228-a0d0-8ab94bdc7fa4/221123_NO2-Messungen_Q3_2022_Tabelle.pdf

 

They measure in multiple areas.

Blame the automobile industry and automobile fetish of the conservative parties in Germany, not cities who are required (unlike auto manufacturers) to follow EU rules.

 

You do not consider the history 

 

Euro 4 came in around the end of 2000, 2006. 

This was introduced by the EU on car manufactures, thats why the car manufactures put better control of emissions from cars.

This was a re action to Petrol cars, causing too much climate change, through CO2 emissions, diesel does not do that much.

 

At that time, there was no mass or mini market of EVs, so the  EU went down the road of getting people to buy Diesel cars, to save the planet and the car manufactures responded by making money ( as you put it ) by making more and more diesel cars.

 

Then after 2015, it was discovered that diesel cars are bad for you, too much NO2 and PM figures

 

So at that point you cannot make diesel or petrol cars, because both have serious down sides, but you have to because people need to get around, otherwise the economy will crash, which is the situation we have now. Sure we will slowly transition to an EV car economy, but that is going to take years ...  and what should people do in the mean time to get around - yes you guessed it - start the petrol and diesel cars. 

 

The graph already shows falling emissions and it will improve over time. It nice to see there were no RED days in 2022. 

 

Its only when you  look at the history you can see why we got to this position, sure I want things to get better. Sure you can say ban Petrol and Diesel cars from the city centre, but that will limit how much the city can grow because some people just will not be able to get to those important activities. We need to transition at a pace that does not hurt the city, but gradually gets cleaner.

 

The automobile industry has changed when new laws are introduced, they have to, but the politicians decided how they should change.

 

Obviously Tesla has made a big impact on the car industry, but that only really came in 2019 with the model 3. But it going to take 10 years before its makes any really difference.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Then after 2015, it was discovered that diesel cars are bad for you, too much NO2 and PM figures

 

Small correction here:

 

Around 2008 when low emissions zones started they already knew about PM emissions and diesel motors, so the government created a program to retrofit particle filters (DPF) into EURO4 diesel cars, they paid more than half of the costs of installing such filters.   After that diesel cars with DPF have lower PM emissions than petrol cars and they received a green sticker.

 

Banning EURO5 cars is even crazier, those were produced until 2015, so they are banning cars that are 8 years old, what a waste.

 

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

Obviously Tesla has made a big impact on the car industry, but that only really came in 2019 with the model 3. But it going to take 10 years before its makes any really difference.

 

In 2030 the UK will ban the sale of new ICE vehicles and the EU is talking about doing the same in 2035. :) I can't imagine why at this time anyone would realistically consider buying a new ICE let alone a diesel one, so I think we will start seeing a difference in about 5 not 10 years.

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1 hour ago, keith2011 said:

 

 I can't imagine why at this time anyone would realistically consider buying a new ICE let alone a diesel one

Price, plain and simple.

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6 hours ago, keith2011 said:

If the general public who are the end consumer are not made aware of the problem there will never be change.

Nicely done for missing the point.

Everyone knows the problem, but we the "common" people cannot do a great deal to change it. It needs massive changes at govt and commercial levels which is almost impossible and it needs the public to accept greater costs for things, and more inconvenience, basically changing everyones lifestyle.

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3 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

In 2030 the UK will ban the sale of new ICE vehicles and the EU is talking about doing the same in 2035. :) I can't imagine why at this time anyone would realistically consider buying a new ICE let alone a diesel one, so I think we will start seeing a difference in about 5 not 10 years.

Norway EV sales share is currently 74%, with EV fleet share at 17%. Conservative estimations put the EV fleet at 70% by 2030.

Norway is about 5 years ahead of most EU countries in EV adoption. So a rough estimation is that EU fleet will be 70% EV by 2035, with very marginal ICE sales by then.

 

There will be a few laggards (I know a couple) and others who cant do math, but they will run out of excuses with each year that passes.

This will be accelerated by closure of gas pumps and repair shops. By 2035 it will be very difficult and expensive to own an ICE car.

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I just can't figure where you are coming from or heading to when you post such apparently opposing views in two consecutive posts!:blink: Is the banning of new ICE sales in 2030 not one of those a massive changes we need?

4 hours ago, Keleth said:

It needs massive changes at govt and commercial levels which is almost impossible and it needs the public to accept greater costs for things, and more inconvenience, basically changing everyones lifestyle.

And this:-:rolleyes:

 

4 hours ago, Keleth said:

Price, plain and simple.

 

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16 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

 I can't imagine why at this time anyone would realistically consider buying a new ICE let alone a diesel one,

 

People who do not have the 40k to buy an EV?   People who have the money but think it is too much money to spend on a car?  People who still do not believe in EVs?   People who think the inconveniences of having an EV outweigh the advantages?    People who do not want to wait twelve months for their car?   People who are not convinced EVs are good for the environment?   People who drive a car type that has no EV option?   People with high towing requirements?  People who only buy second hand cars due to financial advantages?   People scared of lithium batteries?   and the list goes on ...

 

Plus ICEs are not dead yet, hybrids are giving new life to them.  And while I do not like hybrids that much, specially plug in hybrids, I must accept they are achieving amazing things nowadays.   The Fiat 500 hybrid can do 100 km with less than 3 liters of petrol, but yes, it is a very small car, however the upcoming new Toyota Prius hybrid claims 100 km with something around 2.4 liters of petrol, and it is a normal size sedan, and it looks quite good as well.   Totally amazing fuel economy, and the most ironic thing, with current energy prices that would be much cheaper than EVs.

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16 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

In 2030 the UK will ban the sale of new ICE vehicles and the EU is talking about doing the same in 2035. :) I can't imagine why at this time anyone would realistically consider buying a new ICE let alone a diesel one, so I think we will start seeing a difference in about 5 not 10 years.

 

I take these figures with a pinch of salt !!

 

The Government/EU want to get clean air just like all of us.

 

But if the adoption rate is not as high as expected and people cannot get to work as they can now then it may crash the economy as not as many jobs will be done, because people cannot get there to do the work, then things may change....

 

So the Governments/EU will have to make a political decision at some point, if not enough EV's are on the streets, they will delay the ICE ban, if they think enough EV's are on the streets then it will go ahead. Keith is just saying EV's are too expensive at the moment, for mass market adaption. Therefore there will not be enough of them not to hurt the economy and the ban limit will be set back. Things are changing fast with EV's, the new MG4 @ 24000$, is getting close, to a point where most people can afford, but even then, if you need it cheap catr, you are going to have to wait 5 or 10 years, before you can maybe afford one.  Maybe the Model 2 comes soon, but I did not hear any plans. But one thing is for sure, prices will not fall too much while demand out strips supply.

 

I think the roll out of EV's will be slower than some expect on here, but would be happy to be proven wrong. We can all make guesses on how long it will take.

 

@Keith2011, I find it hard to believe, that you just accept what the Government says, after living a long life, I have seen many changes that Governments make, you can always say that a politsion is only lying while they are talking. :huh:

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Krieg said:

People who do not have the 40k to buy an EV?

 

I said a new ICE, 40K may buy you an EV but for example it won't buy you much of a BMW SUV and and many other ICE vehicles on the market. When you consider the huge loss of resale value currently and possibly even worse in the future of an ICE compared to an EV its a no brainer!

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41 minutes ago, yesterday said:

@Keith2011, I find it hard to believe, that you just accept what the Government says, after living a long life, I have seen many changes that Governments make, you can always say that a politsion is only lying while they are talking. :huh:

 

I wonder if you thought the same about the proposals to ban the sale of incandescent light bulbs for instance???

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

People who do not have the 40k to buy an EV?   People who have the money but think it is too much money to spend on a car?  People who still do not believe in EVs?   People who think the inconveniences of having an EV outweigh the advantages?    People who do not want to wait twelve months for their car?   People who are not convinced EVs are good for the environment?   People who drive a car type that has no EV option?   People with high towing requirements?  People who only buy second hand cars due to financial advantages?   People scared of lithium batteries?   and the list goes on ...

 

Plus ICEs are not dead yet, hybrids are giving new life to them.  And while I do not like hybrids that much, specially plug in hybrids, I must accept they are achieving amazing things nowadays.   The Fiat 500 hybrid can do 100 km with less than 3 liters of petrol, but yes, it is a very small car, however the upcoming new Toyota Prius hybrid claims 100 km with something around 2.4 liters of petrol, and it is a normal size sedan, and it looks quite good as well.   Totally amazing fuel economy, and the most ironic thing, with current energy prices that would be much cheaper than EVs.

 

Absolutely. I'll need a new car soon and I'm looking to get a 7 seater. Dacia offer a brand new 7 seater ICE for €20k (and soon a Hybrid for €25k). I didn't think I'd still be considering an ICE in 2023 but the price for a 7 seater EV is not even in the same stratosphere as the €20K Dacia ICE.

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21 hours ago, yesterday said:

proposed regulation...otherwise the economy will crash

 

This is the argument made for every regulation the automobile industry has been required to meet.

An example, the US requires airbags, Germany does not. I have yet the see Americans stop driving cars/economy going into the ditch.

The truth is in Germany the auto industry has undue influence on the laws in Germany and Europe.

München is phasing in the rules and will ban non Münchners diesel 4 autos first. If the benchmarks are made, they won't do any more regulations. (The problem is there is not really much chance of enforcement).

If people vote for parties that promise to clean up the air, these things will happen. The actual damage from poor air quality is usually more of an issue than theoretical damage the economy claimed by a group of industries that are constantly crying the sky will fall...

Also, certain diesel 4 autos without particle filters have a grün plakatte and are exempt from the current ban but will be banned in the future (Lupo 3L) which is a shame.

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