Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

865 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

You keep portraying diesel owners as "poor" when the vast majority of them are not. Btw, your friend is a good example: if he keeps changing car, perhaps his next could be a petrol, no?

 

I honestly do not know why you do not get what he is saying, I actually think you get it but you just do not want to accept it because of your "I am always right attitude".    Of course you are right, there are very expensive diesel cars, that's not the point, he is talking about the cheap used ones.   There are people who only can afford to buy 1000€-3000€ cars, plenty of those cheap used cars are diesels, because they are old and because they might not have a green sticker.  Yes, those cars are not the best for the environment, but for some people they are their only choice.    The day we have 3000€ used EVs then we won't have that problem.   But we are very long from there.    You can talk all you want about TOC but if everything I have right now is 1000€ and I need a car then my only choice is something along the line of a high mileage 2005 Seat Ibiza or a 2006 Mazda 6 and pray it will run until its next TUV.

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Sure, I think poor people should be supported, in various ways, welfare programs etc  - but I am not sure I support the right of poor people to pollute the air we all breath to the point were I could die earlier from it - just because they are poor.

 

I would go the way of banning cars new ICE cars with larger engines, limit say to 1 liter, and improving overall fuel effiencey,  which over time, would cause pollution to drop ( ok over a 10 year period  ), and its not going to hurt the poor people directly - it would more effect the average/rich person - who can and do buy cars with higher emssions.

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

@lisa13

AFAIK the ban is also for LKW, but news focused on PKW.

 

dude!  overkill!

 

I got it loud and clear :)

 

and thank you (really)

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

...

I would go the way of banning cars new ICE cars with larger engines, limit say to 1 liter, and improving overall fuel effiencey,  which over time, would cause pollution to drop ( ok over a 10 year period  ), and its not going to hurt the poor people directly - it would more effect the average/rich person - who can and do buy cars with higher emssions.

 

 

 

 

A ban takes time to implement and in Germany there is a lot of opposition, so I would start be taxing the hell out of them.  

 

Any car with > 4 litre engine make the car tax 5,000 Euros year + 1,000 Euros extra for every 0.5 litre over this value

(Why?  Because such a large engine is clearly excessive and only used by vehicles owned by the rich anyway)

 

3 - 4 litre engine tax = extra 1000 euros/year

2.5 - 3 litre = extra 500 Euros/year

2 - 2.5 litre = extra 100 Euros/year

1.5 - 2 litre extra 50 Euros/year after 2022 (new registrations)

 

 

Exceptions should be made for Oldtimers as long as they are driven less than xxx KM/year.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

Why?  Because such a large engine is clearly excessive and only used by vehicles owned by the rich anyway

 

and the rich will just pay the extra tax as they are...rich

 

 

 

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Just now, lisa13 said:

 

and the rich will just pay the extra tax as they are...rich

 

 

 

 

Yes, most will.  But:

 

  • Short term it will force manufacturers to produce more fuel efficient cars.  Long term more focus on electric or alternative fuels
  • When they replace their vehicle they will look to other alternatives
  • The revenue generated can be put into expanding the grid for EVs
  • It make a point that such vehicles are excessive
  • You are targetting the rich and not the poor, who can't afford new vehicles
  •  

I would also allow cities to ban such vehicles

 

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2 hours ago, yesterday said:

Sure, I think poor people should be supported, in various ways, welfare programs etc  - but I am not sure I support the right of poor people to pollute the air we all breath to the point were I could die earlier from it - just because they are poor.

 

Maybe you have lived all your life in the city and you have little idea about how it is in the country.   People over there do not have cars for fun, some of them really need them.

 

2 hours ago, yesterday said:

 

I would go the way of banning cars new ICE cars with larger engines, limit say to 1 liter, and improving overall fuel effiencey,  which over time, would cause pollution to drop ( ok over a 10 year period  ), and its not going to hurt the poor people directly - it would more effect the average/rich person - who can and do buy cars with higher emssions.

 

 

 

They will ban all new ICE cars in the mid term.   Some countries like Norway as close as 2025.

 

1 hour ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

 

A ban takes time to implement and in Germany there is a lot of opposition, so I would start be taxing the hell out of them.  

 

Any car with > 4 litre engine make the car tax 5,000 Euros year + 1,000 Euros extra for every 0.5 litre over this value

(Why?  Because such a large engine is clearly excessive and only used by vehicles owned by the rich anyway)

 

3 - 4 litre engine tax = extra 1000 euros/year

2.5 - 3 litre = extra 500 Euros/year

2 - 2.5 litre = extra 100 Euros/year

1.5 - 2 litre extra 50 Euros/year after 2022 (new registrations)

 

 

Exceptions should be made for Oldtimers as long as they are driven less than xxx KM/year.

 

 

 

 

The result of this will be a massive disruption in the used car market which will mostly affect the poor.   The rich people will pay whatever taxes you ask them to pay (or find a way not to pay them).  And the poor then can't have those cars because they can't afford them.

 

Remember when germany was giving money if you took an old car out of the market and bought a new one?   That sounded like a good idea to help the car industry during the financial crisis.   But at the end it was a kick in the balls to the poorer, because tons of totally usable cars were taken out of the used market limiting their access to cheap cars.

 

But at least your tax table is not punishing too much the normal engine size cars.

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3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

You keep portraying diesel owners as "poor" when the vast majority of them are not. Btw, your friend is a good example: if he keeps changing car, perhaps his next could be a petrol, no?

I`m sorry but I now think everything you have said up until this point is absolute bollocks.

You are nothing but  a dreamer with not much cash to scrape together for anything let alone a Tesla and other cars.

No one as dumb as you could actually succeed in making money unless they won the lottery.

 

Sorry but I can`t write on here in big letters in crayon so here goes...

THE REASON HE BUYS CARS FOR NEXT TO NOTHING IS BECAUSE HE IS FUCKING POOR SO NO NEXT TIME HE WON`T BUY A PETROL UNLESS IT IS CHEAPER THAN A DIESEL

HE DOES NOT HAVE A CHOICE OF MODEL OR AGE OR FUEL TYPE BECAUSE HE IS FUCKING POOR AND HAS TO BUY WHAT HE CAN WITH WHAT LITTLE HE HAS

IF HE COULD AFFORD A CHOICE HE WOULD NOT BE POOR

IF HE DIDN`T BUY A CHEAP CAR HE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET TO WORK WHERE HE EARNS WHAT LITTLE HE HAS

 

3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

1) Mine is Euro 5

2) It is currently used 90% outside the city, and 100% outside Mitlerer ring, as my wife commutes outside Munich

3) I am doing my job and replacing my polluting cars, without nobody forcing me. What about you?

You`re not replacing them though until it is financially beneficial to you are you ?

 

And nope not me because I can`t afford to.

 

3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Stop rubbing Tesla on it! There are cheaper EVs out there. With the trade in money for diesel cars, plus umweltbonus, plus TCO, it is not a big deal, especially, AGAIN, because most diesel drivers are NOT poor.

I rub Tesla on it (not sure what that means) because that is all you`ve spent 90% of this thread going on about and how the other EVs can`t hold a candle to them.

 

3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Of course! Look on online second hand car websites! Just quickly found some around 10.000€!

Oh cool I could have brought a 2nd hand car for the price of a new one,jeez never knew that was possible.

 

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2 hours ago, Keleth said:

I`m sorry but I now think everything you have said up until this point is absolute bollocks.

You are nothing but  a dreamer with not much cash to scrape together for anything let alone a Tesla and other cars.

No one as dumb as you could actually succeed in making money unless they won the lottery.

This is unnecessary and just makes all your other arguments void.

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

 

Sorry but I can`t write on here in big letters in crayon so here goes...

THE REASON HE BUYS CARS FOR NEXT TO NOTHING IS BECAUSE HE IS FUCKING POOR SO NO NEXT TIME HE WON`T BUY A PETROL UNLESS IT IS CHEAPER THAN A DIESEL

HE DOES NOT HAVE A CHOICE OF MODEL OR AGE OR FUEL TYPE BECAUSE HE IS FUCKING POOR AND HAS TO BUY WHAT HE CAN WITH WHAT LITTLE HE HAS

IF HE COULD AFFORD A CHOICE HE WOULD NOT BE POOR

IF HE DIDN`T BUY A CHEAP CAR HE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET TO WORK WHERE HE EARNS WHAT LITTLE HE HAS

 

SO PEOPLE WILL KEEP DYING BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND CANNOT SPEND 50€ MORE?? Really? Is that an argument?

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

You`re not replacing them though until it is financially beneficial to you are you ?

Waiting for Model Y. Need at least one car with bigger trunk.

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

Oh cool I could have brought a 2nd hand car for the price of a new one,jeez never knew that was possible.

Better than having people dying, right? I found one reasonable solution for your problem and you complain that you prefer not to have it and let people die! Let´s not forget the topic: People are dying or having serious complications because some people like you refuse to spend some money!

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24 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

SO PEOPLE WILL KEEP DYING BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND CANNOT SPEND 50€ MORE?? Really? Is that an argument?

 

what are you talking about?  where are you getting this 50 euro figure? 

 

I think this topic has fully jumped the shark

 

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so are diesels actually banned at this Point in the City Center of Frankfurt?  Or was that just a "we're considering it" Kind of Thing?

 

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16 minutes ago, CincyInDE said:

so are diesels actually banned at this Point in the City Center of Frankfurt?  Or was that just a "we're considering it" Kind of Thing?

 

Its required under EU, that the levels are below a certain number - I think it was 50 of something.

 

Germany ( and other country's ) are ignoring this EU law, on the grounds that they do not want to be nasty to poor people. As you can see its a subject which some people can get quite up tight about.

 

Reading about this figure of 50, all lot of people seem think the limit should be higher anyway.

 

I sometimes look at this webpage http://aqicn.org/city/munich/   it shows a lot of data about the air quality, most places on earth, it very rarely goes above 50 in Munich and not for long - compare it with China/ south east asia and they regularly get 800 +. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Come the environmental revolution those stinky moped / scooter / Roller things that pump out fumes with their crappy tiny engines should be first against the wall.

 

Got stuck behind one in traffic again this morning on my bike in the cycle lane. Echt nicht lustig :(

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2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

This is unnecessary and just makes all your other arguments void.

No it`s not which is further proved by your answer below.

2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

SO PEOPLE WILL KEEP DYING BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND CANNOT SPEND 50€ MORE?? Really? Is that an argument?

€50 is probably enough to feed him and his kid for a couple or 3 weeks so yer.

Well you let them die because you need a bigger trunk apparently.

Who`s the worst out of the both of you ?

You still don`t really understand what the word poor means do you ?

2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Better than having people dying, right? I found one reasonable solution for your problem and you complain that you prefer not to have it and let people die! Let´s not forget the topic: People are dying or having serious complications because some people like you refuse to spend some money!

I`ll use the bigger trunk argument again here.There is literally nothing worse than you saying a poor person should spend €50 more to not have a diesel and then in the very next sentence say you won`t replace your diesel because you need a bigger trunk.I really cannot get my head around your hypocritical arrogant i`m all right Jack attitude.It`s even worse as you advertise yourself as wealthy and it wouldn`t make a difference to you financially.

 

 

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2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

what are you talking about?  where are you getting this 50 euro figure? 

 

I think this topic has fully jumped the shark

 

That`s how much poor people should spend so they could buy a petrol not a diesel,not really sure where he gets the actual figure from.

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11 minutes ago, Keleth said:

That`s how much poor people should spend so they could buy a petrol not a diesel,not really sure where he gets the actual figure from.

 

but that's not what you were talking about was it?  I thought your point was regarding pure cash outlay to simply GET a car in the first place

 

but even just for the gas costs...  I frequently had about $20 per week for groceries when I was in uni, which was only a couple of dollars more than a tank of gas cost me.  looks like I wouldn't have been eating much if I was spending twice as much on gas (diesel does cost about half the price of benzin, right?)

 

whatever.  jumping.  sharks.  just based on past performance the message will never get through.  

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With this logic one could argue that the TÜV ist also unfair to the poor.  There would be many more affordable cars on the used car market if there was no TÜV.

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35 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

With this logic one could argue that the TÜV ist also unfair to the poor.  There would be many more affordable cars on the used car market if there was no TÜV.

See post below.

But if you want to be like you then you could say the price of food,heating,electricity,and so on and so on is unfair to the poor.

And you know what ?

It is.

 

Still at least you seem to know what poor means.

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