Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

865 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

Do you honestly suggest people with perfectly usable vehicles should go out and buy an EV just on principle, just to prove we "care"?  

 

No of course, and if you some of my other posts, you will see, I think its better to run a car in to the ground, than change it every couple of years - because the environment cost of make a new car far out weights the pollution you create, when you drive somewhere.

 

11 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

for me, myself, and actually everyone I know in Munich proper who has a car:  no, we absolutely don't drive instead of taking public transport, "just because we have a car".  We drive when it's actually necessary (eg transporting more than we can carry) OR when it saves sufficient time to make it worthwhile.  Driving into the center is NEVER necessary, and it will take you 2 to three times longer (or more on a really bad day) than taking a bike, U or S bahn if that's even remotely possible.  Even my coworkers who live(d) farther afield drive to their nearest s-bahn then take that into town as the traffic is a complete waste of time.  I don't think your assumption that most people in a city will drive instead of taking public transport (if that is a reasonable option) just because they have a car is accurate.  Far from it.

 

Yeah well, its must be 2 or 3 years since I was last in the middle of by car, I normally use my bike or public transport. But unliky you I know quite a lot of people who drive everywhere, they are either too scared to use a bike ( yes true ) or do not like to sit with others on the public transport.

 

11 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

Even if I wanted an EV, I have no where to plug it in at home, and no, I'm not going to start moving my car around so I can charge it.  No, I really don't "care" that much.  I also drive about 30 km/month max (very often just 5 or even 0) so I'm also not feeling particularly guilt ridden.

 

Accepted and agreed, EV infrastructure needs to be improved.

 

 

11 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, keith2011 said:

They could start by banning the use of diesel vehicles inside Munich's mittler ring. This morning (like most work days between 7-9 am) outside my building's front door there was a tail back from the traffic light about 1km away, many diesel cars and vans not moving with their engines running and mostly just the driver on board and it really stank of fumes. Certainly not healthy and I feel sure it has contributed to the  bronchitis my wife has suffered for the last 2 weeks and my bad cough following a cold. We have typical November weather conditions here in Munich at present, low cloud, cold and no wind so the pollution just builds up.

 

If Mike had said that in his normal way, he would get accused of banning the poor person transport !!!!

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eta: in response to zwiebelfisch's comment

 

totally - this is where "bans" are the biggest concern 

 

eg my last job was an "outward" commute that took 20 minutes by car each way but would have taken 1:45 minutes by public transport using a combination of bus, s and u bahn, plus a fairly time consuming walk, EACH WAY.  there is no way in hell I would have accepted that job if I couldn't drive.  

 

Now imagine you don't have a choice but to take that job...

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28 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

Do you honestly suggest people with perfectly usable vehicles should go out and buy an EV just on principle, just to prove we "care"?  

 

...

 

Not forgetting, that in most cases the production of a new "anything" generates a far higher carbon footprint than running that thing for several more years, or into the ground.

 

An article which discuss this for cars:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

 

 

 

Quote

With this in mind, unless you do very high mileage or have a real gas-guzzler, it generally makes sense to keep your old car for as long as it is reliable – and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50%, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.

 

 

For example:  The article says that the Mondeo would generate 17 Tonnes CO2e to produce.  92,000 KM in this vehicle would generate 16.96 tonnes (https://calculator.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx?tab=4).  And EVs require many more rare earth materials due to the batteries.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

@Krieg Nice! I though it was not strictly forbidden to ICE in Germany. Or is it a local rule?

TBH, I would prefer that EV charging locations were placed away from supermarket entrances. I don´t mind walking a bit more and avoids ICEing situations.

 

 

I don't know for sure, but those parking signs normally say they are only for EVs and people normally respect them.

 

Besides that, what I like was the tone of the Berlin Police in their tweet, I think they are following the BVG public relations style.  But if you read the comments you realize the general population are not ready for that style yet, some people started to post calculations about amps and battery sizes and all sort or irrelevant crap in a post that is basically a joke about the size of the car.

 

46 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

Even if I wanted an EV, I have no where to plug it in at home, and no, I'm not going to start moving my car around so I can charge it.  No, I really don't "care" that much.  I also drive about 30 km/month max (very often just 5 or even 0) so I'm also not feeling particularly guilt ridden.

 

But actually you are the perfect apartment dweller customer for an EV because you drive so little, you can make it by charging in the free charging places in supermarkets.  Because you need to buy groceries once in while, don't you?  

 

Of course you have a car already and probably you prefer to drive it until it dies before deciding anything related to EVs.

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1 hour ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

Not forgetting, that in most cases the production of a new "anything" generates a far higher carbon footprint than running that thing for several more years, or into the ground.

 

An article which discuss this for cars:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

 

 

 

 

 

For example:  The article says that the Mondeo would generate 17 Tonnes CO2e to produce.  92,000 KM in this vehicle would generate 16.96 tonnes (https://calculator.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx?tab=4).  And EVs require many more rare earth materials due to the batteries.

 

Yes but you are missing the point which is there is a major pollution problem is many of cities and towns in Europe, that is damaging peoples health, now. A major cause is ice vehicles and diesels in particular and that needs to be fixed. There will, I am sure, be a progressive ban that will become a total one,  sooner rather than later hopefully. I would love to someday look back at ice vehicles in the same way as incandescent light bulbs

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36 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

But actually you are the perfect apartment dweller customer for an EV because you drive so little, you can make it by charging in the free charging places in supermarkets.  Because you need to buy groceries once in while, don't you?  

 

Of course you have a car already and probably you prefer to drive it until it dies before deciding anything related to EVs.

 

yes I buy groceries but I rarely drive to do so.  til last month there was a rewe across the street and there is the fallback aldi and edeka a couple of blocks away.  I don't drive to shop unless it's a very special market that has a parking lot and I can't walk.

 

so no.  I am not a perfect candidate ;)

 

for a bit of perspective I am PISSED that the gas station near the edeka is closed for some reason as that means now I have to make a special trip to gas up.  based on this feeling alone, there is no way in hell I'm going to work charging sessions into my current life without inconvenience. 

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1 minute ago, lisa13 said:

 

yes I buy groceries but I rarely drive to do so.  til last month there was a rewe across the street and there is the fallback aldi and edeka a couple of blocks away.  I don't drive to shop unless it's a very special market that has a parking lot and I can't walk.

 

so no.  I am not a perfect candidate ;)

 

for a bit of perspective I am PISSED that the gas station near the edeka is closed for some reason as that means now I have to make a special trip to gas up.  there is no way in hell I'm going to work charging sessions into my current life without inconvenience. 

 

 

I think you are being a contrarian here, because you already have to drive to the gas station.  So what would be the harm in bringing your car once every 3 or 4 months to your Aldi/Lidl/Rewe/Kaufland/Ikea/Whatever and charge ther for free?   You drive so little that the 1 hour free charge while you do the shopping will last you like 6 months.

 

Of course because you are being a contrarian here, I guess you will say something like "I do not need 1 hour to do my grocery shopping" or something along.

 

Sorry, but people who drive very little are the perfect customers for EVs, even if they do not have the chance to have their own charging place.  Actually having your own charging place wouldn't even make sense, why pay 1000€ or 2000€ for a charging place when you can just charge a couple of times a year for free and be done with it?

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

I think you are being a contrarian here, because you already have to drive to the gas station.

 

not at all

 

normally I would not drive just to go to a tankstelle. the reason I'm pissed is the last time I drove my car I planned to simply swing by my local station on the way home, but when I tried they were closed - hopefully for sanierung but maybe forever, I have no clue.  Could have easily spent the 5 minutes to fill up elsewhere if I'd known I could not hit my local as usual.  But I'm low enough on gas that finding a station is now the first order of business next time I need to do any driving.

 

the point is to illustrate how little interest I have in taking special precautions related to driving.  cars are largely about convenience.  No thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

Of course because you are being a contrarian here, I guess you will say something like "I do not need 1 hour to do my grocery shopping"

 

no, I sure as shit don't!  And it's not because I'm being "contrarian" it's simply the truth!  I live in the city, I work in the city, I can shop little bits as needed any time I need to, have a small undercounter fridge that doesn't hold much...when and why the hell would I ever need to spend an hour at one time shopping?

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

You drive so little that the 1 hour free charge while you do the shopping will last you like 6 months. ...Sorry, but people who drive very little are the perfect customers for EVs

 

I think YOU are being contrarian here.  Who in their right mind who drives SO little is going to spend that much to buy a car?!  Are you honestly serious here?

 

PS: the only reason I have a car is that I used to work outside the city as previously mentioned.  I have a parking space included with my apartment so I saw no reason to get rid of the car, but I mostly live without it, as I did prior to working outside the city.  It's actually more "contrarian" that I have a car at all.

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27 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

for a bit of perspective I am PISSED that the gas station near the edeka is closed for some reason as that means now I have to make a special trip to gas up.  based on this feeling alone, there is no way in hell I'm going to work charging sessions into my current life without inconvenience. 

https://www.swm.de/privatkunden/m-mobilitaet/elektromobilitaet/oeffentliche-ladestationen.html

Currently 424 charging point, 128 charging. You already have more charging points than fuel stations. This is from SWM alone.

If you add up all other suppliers, it is probably 500-600. In 2-3 years it should be several thousands.

 

Fortunately in my case I do most of my charging from a 230V 16A plug on my garage. Still, I get around 20% from supermarket /baumarkt/ikea free charging.

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3 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

I think YOU are being contrarian here.  Who in their right mind who drives SO little is going to spend that much to buy a car?!  Are you honestly serious here?

 

 

Nobody said you had to buy a Tesla S tomorrow.    Just that not having a private charging point is not a reason not to have an electric car, specially if you do not drive it too much because slowly the infrastructure is being build.   There is a big change in the past 18 months.

 

You said your problem with EVs is because you live in an apartment and can't have your own charger.

 

 

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I don't even have an EV yet, and I don't think I will have one at least in the next 3 to 5 years..  I am just trying to be fair with the arguments from both sides.  And it amuses me how sensitive this subject is.   From both sides.

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I can't stop laughing. Are we really arguing that the best customer for an ecar is someone who says they never drive and dont need a car?

 

Tonight I'm going to call a bald friend of mine and tell him he is the perfect customer for an expensive hair dryer.

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Just now, zwiebelfisch said:

I can't stop laughing. Are we really arguing that the best customer for an ecar is someone who says they never drive and dont need a car?

 

Not the one never drive the car, but the one who doesn't drive long distance regularly.   And the one who doesn't drive hundreds of kms every week doesn't even need its own fast charger.    In other markets there are EVs with extremely low range.  Some people would consider that ridiculous of course, because they are not the target market.

 

I guess nowadays someone driving under 100 km a week can probably live without a house charger very easily.   And someone driving under 300 km a week (probably more depending on the car) can live charging from the wall socket very easily (no need to own a fast charger).

 

Of course I can understand the price is a deterrent at the moment, that's the reason I myself don't buy one.

 

The argument started because the deterrent to have an EV was LIVING IN APARTMENT.  

 

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thank you!

 

14 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

Tonight I'm going to call a bald friend of mine and tell him he is the perfect customer for an expensive hair dryer.

 

be sure to play up the fact that with so little hair, his head will be dry lickety split!

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49 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

https://www.swm.de/privatkunden/m-mobilitaet/elektromobilitaet/oeffentliche-ladestationen.html

Currently 424 charging point, 128 charging. You already have more charging points than fuel stations. This is from SWM alone.

If you add up all other suppliers, it is probably 500-600. In 2-3 years it should be several thousands.

You would probably like it in the Netherlands. We have the highest number of public charging points in Europe and we are smaller than Bavaria :).

 

https://www.eafo.eu/alternative-fuels/electricity/charging-infra-stats

 

The government is pushing this topic with beneficial fiscal policies for e-cars.

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4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

@Krieg Nice! I though it was not strictly forbidden to ICE in Germany. Or is it a local rule?

TBH, I would prefer that EV charging locations were placed away from supermarket entrances. I don´t mind walking a bit more and avoids ICEing situations.

 

 

I had to sternly tell an old guy in a Mazda he was blocking the charging Station at Kaufland when I was in Saxony earlier this year.  He grumbled something in Sächsisch then drove off.  win?  

 

In Munich there are 4 chargers near my Office.  At least one is usually free, but there are regularly all kinds of vehicles blocking at least one of the charging spots. ICEs, fully charged PHEVs, unplugged Teslas (asshole), Pflegedienst (I'll only be a few minutes; what can it hurt?), and once a big truck blocking 3 spots.  

 

Charging stations on public streets are of course governed by "the rules."  Check out the most German Website I've ever seen.  it goes over examples of valid and invalid signage for charging infrastructure.  

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27 minutes ago, Krieg said:

The argument started because the deterrent to have an EV was LIVING IN APARTMENT.  

 

yeah, for me it is actually.  ffs have you been sharing mike's favorite smoke?  Can you really and honestly not even imagine the hassle of this scenario?  apparently not so let me spell it out in excruciating detail (I got time...wating for a big build to finish)

 

Since I am so abnormal that I don't do large, lengthy shopping trips because I don't have to, because I live in an apartment, in the city...

 

...any time I needed to charge my car I'd have to:

 

0) realize that before I was in a bind - do these cars hold their charge well after long periods of inactivity?  a regular car battery often won't do that, so I have my doubts.  But let's have fun and presume I would never have to worry about my car running out of juice from lack of use.  

 

1) drive from my garage, or from the parking spot I miraculously found on the street after multiple trips around the block, to a charging station.  one that is miraculously not occupied, given the craze for EVs now and high respect non ev drivers have for keeping charging stations free

2) ok I found one.  plug in and do whatever that requires

3) now I have to go find something else to do for an hour.  is it really just an hour?  

4) ok so I made sure I had enough to do, but not TOO much as I don't want to exceed any time limits, plus I just don't want to be a douche in case someone else needs to charge.

5) now I go back to get my car.  drive it back to my garage or spend some time driving around looking for a spot on the street

 

OH YES!  I CAN'T WAIT!

 

you know what this reminds me of?  doing laundry in a laudromat.  you wanna spend your time that way, have at it.  I personally don't.  vive la difference, man

 

 

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I live in an Apartment and I have an EV.  it's not that big of a deal.  I drive to work sometimes and Charge on the street nearby.  Or I fast Charge at Aldi while I'm Shopping.  Range anxiety is a Thing until you get the car and it's suddenly not.  

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