Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

865 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

you have clearly never lived "paycheck to paycheck" which IN FACT leaves you not knowing jack about where you will be financially possibly tomorrow, but certainly not past your next paycheck, at best.   yeah yeah, you didn't have a regular paycheck, but that was by choice, right?  and somehow you had the savings to forgo having a paycheck.  Good on you, truly, but the majority of people don't have this luxury.

I had the savings because I worked during my teenage and university years! I took a risk and created a company, which created jobs and brought, over the past 19 years, a couple of millions of Euros into Portugal!

The majority of people don't stick their neck out!

 

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I don't think you're willfully trying to insult anyone but you apparently have no earthly clue what it's actually like to be "poor".  Great to wax poetic about what people "should" do with their money, but you are assuming they HAVE money to make choices with.  Oh you were down to 32 euros in your bank account ONCE? ffs people who are actually poor face this every freaking month, if they are lucky and don't go into the red, for years on end and possibly a lifetime. 

Never said I was poor! I was responding to the accusation that I always lived from my "mommy and daddy". You are just distorting it as it suits you!

 

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  And that's exactly the problem with your views here - you seem perfectly comfortable with the idea of foisting your values on other people when you personally will never be touched by your proposed "solutions", as not only could you afford it, but you'd be in the exclusive group that would not be penalized in the first place- yay, you!. 

What are you talking about? I have a diesel car! Of course I would be penalized by my views!

 

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That, and you seem to have no earthly clue nor concern for how hard those proposals might be on those less fortunate than yourself. 

 

 

dude.  I generally don't think you're a jerk, but sometimes...gah!

I have no problem in being the punching bag on this thread. Great to improve rhetoric skills.

 

I defend the ban on Diesel. I can't state all my personal reasons here because I want to keep them private, but something has to be done with the pollution on big cities!

 

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Punishing people with so few resources with extra taxes for having to drive a shitty clunker, if they can even afford any car at all, is so obnoxious I have no words.  I do think this blind and/or naive elitism is precisely what is pissing people off, not the car itself. 

Poor people also get sick from pollution. Even more, because usually they live in shitty areas near big roads. The not-so-poor diesel drivers don't give a shit for those who even don't drive a car but still get the pollution? I'm guessing that those utterly poor people could use the same arguments that you guys are using against me and call all diesel drivers "rich, out of touch, and not giving a fuck about me!". Now who is being naive and elitist?

 

Now down to numbers: according to this site, the number of affected cars is 74.000. Total number of commuters is 350.000. If anybody has better numbers, please share!

https://www.gansel-rechtsanwaelte.de/abgasskandal-autofahrer/diesel-fahrverbot-frankfurt

Doing the math (with extra numbers from article, the number of affected commuters would be 75.250. No number for internal city drivers, but I guess most of them don't have a diesel, as it makes no sense for short distance commuting.

Unsure if the article talks about administrative borders (732.000 inhabitants) or urban area (2.300.000), but I guess the ban is only for the administrative area, but affects the whole urban area. So in terms of commuters, we are talking roughly of 75k/(2300k-732k) = 4.7% of people affected by the ban. Assuming a similar percentage  internal population commutes by car (worst case), we would end up with 108.100 persons affected.

So you are "attacking" 4.7% (worst case) of the population to increase the health level of 100% of (at very least) the inner city. Considering that diesel cars are not the cheapest around, most of those 4.7% are people who can indeed replace their cars.

Now go tell the real poor people (those who can't even afford a car!) that their health is at risk because a small percentage of drivers don't/can't change their cars!

According to this page, air pollution causes 154 deaths per 100.000 ppl per year in Germany.

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-03/esoc-apc030819.php

That would mean 1127 deaths in Frankfurt inner city alone, per year! Of course a ban won't save them all, but would save a significant number, plus the tens of thousands that don't die but have serious illness.

 

In the meantime, please, if it makes you feel good, keep hitting the "rich" guy and calling yourself "poor", play me as villain and you as a victim, I don't mind, really! But please also stop for a second and if you don't have any empathy, just think that one of those 1127 deaths could be you or a relative.

 

 

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7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Never said I was poor! I was responding to the accusation that I always lived from my "mommy and daddy". You are just distorting it as it suits you!

I never accused you specifically I used a sweeping generalisation which you appeared to be fond of using so thought you`d appreciate it.

7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

The majority of people don't stick their neck out!

Here you go again.

Many people don`t stick their neck out because they can`t,not because they`re unwilling to but they simply either don`t have the know how or even an inkling of an idea that they could stick their neck out for.

Poor people are poor not through choice and they normally don`t have the opportunity of a decent education and unlike you if they do work in their teenage years their money goes to support their family because believe it or not they`re poor.

Many poor people certainly do not go to university (benefit of a free university education for you I presume or someone else paid as if you paid for an education and saved you need to let people in on the secret as millions cannot do it) and most of them don`t go not because they`re not intelligent enough but because they have to work.

Yer poor peoples mindset I suppose in worrying about the now and actually supporting a family rather than thinking what they could do after getting a higher education.

7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

What are you talking about? I have a diesel car! Of course I would be penalized by my views!

You could afford the fines or extra cost or whatever though.

This is your big failing in that you cannot seem to understand that some people drive diesels because they have to due to basically needing a car and having to take the cheapest they can get hold of.

7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

In the meantime, please, if it makes you feel good, keep hitting the "rich" guy and calling yourself "poor", play me as villain and you as a victim, I don't mind, really! But please also stop for a second and if you don't have any empathy, just think that one of those 1127 deaths could be you or a relative.

Um you`ve just admitted you are a villain.

You know how many deaths they cause,yet you have a diesel.

Why haven`t you sold it ?

7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Considering that diesel cars are not the cheapest around

But don`t you keep going on about TCO which is why most people drive diesels instead of petrol ?

7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Now go tell the real poor people (those who can't even afford a car!) that their health is at risk because a small percentage of drivers don't/can't change their cars!

These poor people you seem to care about when they get work and can afford a car they have to buy the cheapest possible which you seem to want to tax even more.

Many of them if they can actually get  job end up in factories doing menial work where the working conditions in regard to pollution is several levels above what they will actually suffer from traffic fumes.

8 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

but something has to be done with the pollution on big cities!

It does but do you honestly believe that it is only traffic that causes the problem ?

Funny how the worst affected cities are those with industries or ship traffic.

Yet once again it is the public bearing the brunt of it and being at fault and you keep that myth alive.

I wonder how much less money businesses and you would have made with extra taxes on lorries,industries etc.

It`s all well and good you opfering yourself now that you have the money to do it but when you didn`t have I honestly wonder how keen you would have been.

 

Tesla is not the answer to inner city pollution they are a tiny step on the way to it and until they bring out a cheap car that most people can afford they will just be a toy for rich people that has some good side effects.

If I could have brought an EV for the price of my Fiesta I would have done and I`m sure many other people would have as well but at the moment it isn`t happening.

 

Norway is a good example of how to bring in EVs in place of ICE.

In that they make the EVs cheaper in purchase price,charging,steuer and even parking and ferry costs etc etc than ICE cars rather than in Deutschland where they seem to (which you seem to be a supporter of)want to make ICE vehicles more expensive incl steuer etc than EVs.

Also I have heard (could be bollocks) that there is no standard charging connection in Germany and that you have to actively seek out one that would fit your car ?

 

 

 

 

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@MikeMelga That was an interesting read... 

 

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He said: "In Germany, for instance, agriculture contributes up to 45% of PM2.5 to the atmosphere. When manure and fertiliser are used on agricultural land, ammonia is released into the atmosphere, which reacts with sulphur and nitrogen oxides and associated sulphuric and nitric acids, forming salts such as ammonium sulphate and nitrate. These substances contribute significantly to the formation and composition of fine particles, interacting further with soot and organic aerosol compounds."

 

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12 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I had the savings because I worked during my teenage and university years! I took a risk and created a company, which created jobs and brought, over the past 19 years, a couple of millions of Euros into Portugal!

The majority of people don't stick their neck out!

 

that's awesome!  I worked during my high school (actually starting when I was 12) and university years so that I could have clothes that weren't from the dollar store and keep a roof over my head while I studied.  And yes I did have to go into debt to graduate, simply to cover some portion of living costs.  I'm glad that you could save so much money, but your idea, AGAIN, that those who don't save or "stick their necks out" are making a choice...Keleth already covered it very, very well so I won't rehash that.  But my goodness do you really have no idea how offensive some of your comments are?

 

12 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Never said I was poor!

 

I never said you were poor either - wtf are you talking about?  I said it's abundantly clear you have no clue what it's like to be poor, and you seem to have zero understanding of how your proposals could impact people who are.  And when people tell you about what those consequences might be, you just fall back to, basically, "well they should try harder and/or do something else" 

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

In the meantime, please, if it makes you feel good, keep hitting the "rich" guy and calling yourself "poor", play me as villain and you as a victim, I don't mind, really! But please also stop for a second and if you don't have any empathy, just think that one of those 1127 deaths could be you or a relative.

 

You are really getting into some strange hyperbole here.  I for one have already said I could buy a Tesla if I cared to, but I don't care.  I HAVE been poor but thankfully am no longer.  I'm not pegging you as a villain, and I am FAR from a victim in any of this and would not personally be overly hurt by new car regulations or taxes or whatever as I can afford to pay and/or I can definitely manage to just not have a car at all.  For me personally it is NOTHING of concern.  nothing!  That is not the case for everyone however.  Duh.

 

I'm sorry to say but you of all people should not be lecturing anyone about empathy.  You are not equipped to judge anyone else's life circumstances let alone pretend you are qualified to measure their level of empathy (eta: don't take that personally, nobody really can, but some come closer than others).  Throwing that out there is a cheap distraction to try to wheedle out of your failing argument. I'm pretty sure you don't actually give a shit about any of this - you've already stated this is just a rhetorical exercise at this point, right?

 

 

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13 hours ago, Keleth said:

This is your big failing in that you cannot seem to understand that some people drive diesels because they have to due to basically needing a car and having to take the cheapest they can get hold of.

Diesel is not the cheapest car... now you are bullshitting.

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

Um you`ve just admitted you are a villain.

You know how many deaths they cause,yet you have a diesel.

Why haven`t you sold it ?

Just sold one of the cars. Will sell the other one next year. AFAIK, I can get 4000€ for trading in a diesel. Plus 5000-6000€ umweltbonus. That is why I am interested in the VW ID3. I would get 10k€ from the state, plus some 10k€ from my current car and then add something extra and I would finally get rid of diesel.

BTW, those "poor" diesel folks can get up to 10k€ by trading them for an EV. Did you knew that? I thought you could not accumulate both, but a colleague told me today that you can.

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

But don`t you keep going on about TCO which is why most people drive diesels instead of petrol ?

Diesel TCO advantage only pays off if you drive a lot. And with modern cars, it does not pay off at all, because new diesel car maintenance is hugely expensive. Those improvements on efficiency came at the cost of complexity and high maintenance.

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

These poor people you seem to care about when they get work and can afford a car they have to buy the cheapest possible which you seem to want to tax even more.

Which is not a diesel!

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

It does but do you honestly believe that it is only traffic that causes the problem ?

Funny how the worst affected cities are those with industries or ship traffic.

Munich?

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

Yet once again it is the public bearing the brunt of it and being at fault and you keep that myth alive.

A very small percentage of the public.

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

Tesla is not the answer to inner city pollution they are a tiny step on the way to it and until they bring out a cheap car that most people can afford they will just be a toy for rich people that has some good side effects.

If I could have brought an EV for the price of my Fiesta I would have done and I`m sure many other people would have as well but at the moment it isn`t happening.

Stop using Tesla's price as an excuse! They are by far the best choice for anything above a VW Golf. But for the lower segment, for short commutes, there is more offer!

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

Norway is a good example of how to bring in EVs in place of ICE.

In that they make the EVs cheaper in purchase price,charging,steuer and even parking and ferry costs etc etc than ICE cars rather than in Deutschland where they seem to (which you seem to be a supporter of)want to make ICE vehicles more expensive incl steuer etc than EVs.

Hahahah, you gotta be joking bringing Norway in! They are going to ban ALL fossil fuels car sales in 2025!

Not only that, the tolls and ferry costs went UP to discourage ICE cars! Completely the opposite of what you said!

https://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/features/european-countries-banning-fossil-fuel-cars/

 

13 hours ago, Keleth said:

Also I have heard (could be bollocks) that there is no standard charging connection in Germany and that you have to actively seek out one that would fit your car ?

Ok, better stop saying crap and get informed. I've been into several chargers and I always had one who could fit mine. Although there are actually several connectors, most charging stations have 2-4 types and you always bring your own cable that can also work for some of them.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

@MikeMelga That was an interesting read... 

 

He said: "In Germany, for instance, agriculture contributes up to 45% of PM2.5 to the atmosphere. When manure and fertiliser are used on agricultural land, ammonia is released into the atmosphere, which reacts with sulphur and nitrogen oxides and associated sulphuric and nitric acids, forming salts such as ammonium sulphate and nitrate. These substances contribute significantly to the formation and composition of fine particles, interacting further with soot and organic aerosol compounds."

Although it is bad for farm workers, the populational densitiy is the problem which this ban tries to solve. Too much pollution in such a small area, which is inhabited by a lot of people. Concentration is the issue, not country average.

 

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9 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

I'm sorry to say but you of all people should not be lecturing anyone about empathy.  You are not equipped to judge anyone else's life circumstances let alone pretend you are qualified to measure their level of empathy (eta: don't take that personally, nobody really can, but some come closer than others).  Throwing that out there is a cheap distraction to try to wheedle out of your failing argument. I'm pretty sure you don't actually give a shit about any of this 

I have my strong reasons to want a ban in all cities with too much pollution but I want to keep them private. And I can assure you I am being emphatic about it.

 

9 hours ago, lisa13 said:

- you've already stated this is just a rhetorical exercise at this point, right?

I'm a glass half full kind of guy. Worst case, I improve my rhetorical speech.

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but this is old technology... or is history repeating itself!

 

I recal in the 70/80s watching Tomorrrows world and they demonstrated a driverless tractor ploughing a field...

 

Our Milk man was called MikeMelga and drove an electric milk float... 

 

Rumbellows TV rental company had a fleet of Dual-fuel Cars... ( petrol/LPG)

 

We used Glass for Pop  and milk bottles and shopping was packed in Paper bags or in a decent cardboard box from the supermarket..!

 

Almost all Fruit and veg was only seasonal and "bio" !...  Every farm had a Farm shop selling their wares at fair prices.. 

 

Air travel was only for the wealthy!....    ( My British granddad used to work in Munich and was only permitted to travel back to familly twice a year... ) now its common place to fly in a country for a 2 hr meeting and fly home same or next day!!  

 

But sadly due to the lack of internet there was a lack of public opinion.. so,  " The monster of progress"... progressed in the wrong direction... 

 

Maybe we need to change our lifestyles and not be so darned greedy...    and Mike... That means get a smaller glass then your Half full glass will be full!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Wow

 

Seems to me, Mike is actually saying the right things, but does put his point in a way that can be taken and used in a way that upsets people.

I mean a lot of city's are polluted, I do not like to ride my bike in Munich ( I do it anyway ) city center because, I know it has a higher than normal level of pollution during parts of the day, and during rush  hour I drive my diesel around the mittler ring and just have stop and go, thus adding to more and more pollution to the streets. I have lived in Munich for a long time, in that time, the city has grown from about 800,000 to 1.5 million - but the street's are mostly the same - leading me to think that there are just too many cars on the road.

Sure, I guess a lot more poor, people have cars and use them - sure rich people buy their sons and daughters cars as well - all adding to the level of pollution. Once you get a car, you will drive it, even it you can use the public transport, that just seems to be the way for most people.

I  think most people, just look at the  buyin price for a car for whatever reason, they do not normally think about the TCO, over 10 years because - maybe things change in the 10 years and their plan goes wrong, so short term planning will normally be used when thinking about buying cars - does not matter if that's wrong or right - people just think that way. Different thinking about buying a house or apartment, or getting married

As a lot of people have said here, they can afford an e-car, but want to use the cash for something else, which just means we all accept the pollution - and we are all part of the problem - we just do not care enough  about the environment we live in.

I do not really see e-cars taking off in a big way, for the next couple of years, at least until the price comes down, and you can charge them in a 10 minutes, to full, although e-cars can clearly be used in some peoples life's - they are not an all round replacement yet  for an ICE car.

Given all of that, why should a person buy an e-car, maybe they think

- Impress the people around them

- Save the planet - do not see how, when so few are sold.

- save money, because TCO is less - difficult to say over a 10 year period.

- Just to try new technology, like the first people to buy mobile phones 

 

Given as I believe e-cars will take a while to arrive in any numbers, in the short term, to cut pollution and traffic there has to be limit put on the number of cars driven around, like London has done with the congestion charge - which of course dis advantages the poor people more than the rich people - but what else can you do ?

- Limit the number km's you can do a year ??

- Allow one car per family

- Allow entry to the city, for people living in Munich

-- Introduce laws, to only allow  e-cars in the center of city s ( like china has done, for non residents of the city ).

- ???

 

Clearly, if nothing is done, then the poor  people around the mittler ring will suffer the most from  a health point of view - and we all suffer the high number of traffic jams.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

Wow

 

 

Given as I believe e-cars will take a while to arrive in any numbers, in the short term, to cut pollution and traffic there has to be limit put on the number of cars driven around, like London has done with the congestion charge - which of course dis advantages the poor people more than the rich people - but what else can you do ?

- Limit the number km's you can do a year ??

- Allow one car per family

- Allow entry to the city, for people living in Munich

-- Introduce laws, to only allow  e-cars in the center of city s ( like china has done, for non residents of the city ).

- ???

 

Clearly, if nothing is done, then the poor  people around the mittler ring will suffer the most from  a health point of view - and we all suffer the high number of traffic jams.

 

 

 

 

They could start by banning the use of diesel vehicles inside Munich's mittler ring. This morning (like most work days between 7-9 am) outside my building's front door there was a tail back from the traffic light about 1km away, many diesel cars and vans not moving with their engines running and mostly just the driver on board and it really stank of fumes. Certainly not healthy and I feel sure it has contributed to the  bronchitis my wife has suffered for the last 2 weeks and my bad cough following a cold. We have typical November weather conditions here in Munich at present, low cloud, cold and no wind so the pollution just builds up.

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@Krieg Nice! I though it was not strictly forbidden to ICE in Germany. Or is it a local rule?

TBH, I would prefer that EV charging locations were placed away from supermarket entrances. I don´t mind walking a bit more and avoids ICEing situations.

 

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24 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

They could start by banning the use of diesel vehicles inside Munich's mittler ring. This morning (like most work days between 7-9 am) outside my building's front door there was a tail back from the traffic light about 1km away, many diesel cars and vans not moving with their engines running and mostly just the driver on board and it really stank of fumes.

They have to, they are just postponing a court decision.

 

24 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Certainly not healthy and I feel sure it has contributed to the  bronchitis my wife has suffered for the last 2 weeks and my bad cough following a cold. We have typical November weather conditions here in Munich at present, low cloud, cold and no wind so the pollution just builds up.

I actually bought an air purifier for my bedroom. Not only it is great for allergies, it also cleans up most of smoke particles from traffic.

For commuting, some cars have HEPA filters or something of similar efficacy.

For those without, I wonder if putting the AC in circulation mode would help.

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I hope that diesel will be banned completly. I am so glad this is happening. I suffered from chronic bronchitus which always flared up in winter. I used to have to travel alot on public transport and even considered wearing one of those masks. I remember having a shower in the evening the taste of fumes from my hair.

 

Since the ban my lung health has improved greatly. I never realised the correlation before.

 

I notice a huge difference when I am behind a diesel car or a petrol car engine.

 

I am also glad they are making people with chimneys put particle filters in. I hate winter, not being able to open the window to get fresh air, instead fumes come in.

 

Seriously, maybe I need to get out the rat race and move to the country.

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51 minutes ago, Anna66 said:

Seriously, maybe I need to get out the rat race and move to the country.

 

Do you honestly think its that much better here in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere?

 

Almost every single house has a wood burner...  

In summer, almost every single day someone is mowing.. strimming or moaning about excessive traffic... 

 

I have seen a huge change in our village over the past few years... and I dont think it will get much better... 

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3 hours ago, yesterday said:

they can afford an e-car, but want to use the cash for something else, which just means we all accept the pollution - and we are all part of the problem - we just do not care enough  about the environment we live in.

 

Do you honestly suggest people with perfectly usable vehicles should go out and buy an EV just on principle, just to prove we "care"?  

 

for me, myself, and actually everyone I know in Munich proper who has a car:  no, we absolutely don't drive instead of taking public transport, "just because we have a car".  We drive when it's actually necessary (eg transporting more than we can carry) OR when it saves sufficient time to make it worthwhile.  Driving into the center is NEVER necessary, and it will take you 2 to three times longer (or more on a really bad day) than taking a bike, U or S bahn if that's even remotely possible.  Even my coworkers who live(d) farther afield drive to their nearest s-bahn then take that into town as the traffic is a complete waste of time.  I don't think your assumption that most people in a city will drive instead of taking public transport (if that is a reasonable option) just because they have a car is accurate.  Far from it.

 

Even if I wanted an EV, I have no where to plug it in at home, and no, I'm not going to start moving my car around so I can charge it.  No, I really don't "care" that much.  I also drive about 30 km/month max (very often just 5 or even 0) so I'm also not feeling particularly guilt ridden.

 

eta:  mittlerer ring is a big problem and reflects the lack of reasonable options for those who would benefit from a real public transport/s-bahn ring, which is sadly lacking in Munich.  No, I don't think the piecemeal ring bus thingy they have started to implement is a reasonable alternative to driving yet.

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11 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Do you honestly think its that much better here in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere?

 

Considering this is a thread on banning of cars, the most striking thnig to me is how little many city people appreciate the need for a car outside of cities or in some cases simply just outside of the city centre.

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