Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

865 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

And who do you think finances this bonus ?   The tooth fairy?

Hopefully taxes on less environment friendly cars.

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13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

1) With Umweltbonus it gets down to 41k

2) You keep forgetting TCO. But that´s what poor people usually do: think only of the immediate cost.

3) I kept the discussion on new cars. You can have a similar discussion on used ones.

4) If you accounted in a car´s price the damage it does for the environment, EVs would be price competitive even on the lower segment.


Keep talking about the same, but truth is lower income people can't afford this.  You can keep the discussion about new cars (showing even more you do not get the real world), but the point is diesel cars will be banned sooner or later, and not the new ones, but the old ones, the ones poor people can afford.

 

Maybe if I try with an analogy you can finally get it.  Imagine they banned Android smartphones, only Apple devices are allowed in the market.   Then you will say, no problem, the average smartphone costs 500€, then you should be able to buy the entry level Apple for 800€.  But Mike, what about poor people?  They can buy used Apples.   But Mike, they cost at least 400€ and you used to be able to buy new Androids for 100€.   Well, I will keep my conversation to NEW phones.

 

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People on the lower brackets cannot usually afford a new car. But someone is buying and using a new car, so that later they can buy it.

 

They can't buy the cars that are banned.  And used EVs are still out of their budget.

 

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You are spreading the argument forgetting we were focused on something easy to compare: new car prices

 

 

 

You are forgetting that this thread is about BANNING DIESEL CARS.  Not about how easy is for the upper class to buy Teslas.

 

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7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Hopefully taxes on less environment friendly cars.

 

So tax the poor to give it to the rich.   Nice Mike, nice.

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2 hours ago, Krieg said:

Not about how easy is for the upper class to buy Teslas.

 

On the other hand, its not like Tesla is only for the upper class.  You probably know I think they are mostly penis extentions for the under endowed, but 40k isnt upper class, its very much middle class.

 

That environmentalists think the peasants shouldnt be allowed cars is also not new, sadly the middle class champagne socialists with a prius have been this was for at least several decades.

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4 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

On the other hand, its not like Tesla is only for the upper class.  You probably know I think they are mostly penis extentions for the under endowed, but 40k isnt upper class, its very much middle class.

 

The cheapest Tesla cost 46k which is the entry level model, the Tesla S is around 80-100k, the Tesla X is around 150k, and the Roaster is like 250k.    Even the entry level model at 46k wouldn't be something I would call middle class, a family would have to save 1k a month for 4 years to buy one, and saving 1k might not be easy in the middle class.   Maybe we have different definitions of middle class.

 

Of course Teslas might not be the choice of the 1 percenters but I still see it as a luxury car.

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10 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Of course Teslas might not be the choice of the 1 percenters but I still see it as a luxury car.

Premium car, not luxury. Still, as a company car or for someone who drives a lot, it becomes cheaper in terms of TCO than a Golf. That is why it is so hard to define a Tesla: premium price, Ferrari performance, Golf TCO.

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6 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

So tax the poor to give it to the rich.   Nice Mike, nice.

Start with SUVs and crossovers. Poor people don´t buy them and they are a really big problem for the environment.

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3 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

On the other hand, its not like Tesla is only for the upper class.  You probably know I think they are mostly penis extentions for the under endowed, but 40k isnt upper class, its very much middle class.

Yes but I unlike what appears to be most of you on this board am not even middle class.

3 years ago due to various reasons I needed a car so decided to buy a new one rather than a used one.

Brought a Fiesta cost me about 15k which I had to take out credit for and this strapped me.There is absolutely no way I could afford even 20k let alone 40k and couldn`t afford even a used EV.

So to me 40k may as well be exclusively for the upper class.

Still it`s nice to know that the people who can afford one and don`t think us lower class deserve one are cleaning up the environment for us.

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6 hours ago, Krieg said:

Maybe if I try with an analogy you can finally get it.  Imagine they banned Android smartphones, only Apple devices are allowed in the market.   Then you will say, no problem, the average smartphone costs 500€, then you should be able to buy the entry level Apple for 800€.  But Mike, what about poor people?  They can buy used Apples.   But Mike, they cost at least 400€ and you used to be able to buy new Androids for 100€.   Well, I will keep my conversation to NEW phones.

Your analogy is flawed. We are not talking about banning companies, we are talking about banning technologies.

 

Let´s see the example of China, the largest EV market. 500 EV companies showed up in a few years to provide EV cars and motorcycles for poorer people. Make the laws to ban it, cheaper calls will appear, even if quality and range are bad.

In this case, it is simple:

  1. Ban diesel
  2. Force mid/large companies to provide free charging stations for employees
  3. Force large new buildings to have charging stations for tenants
  4. Keep small cheap petrol cars with low circulation taxes until EVs can replace them. You can even make a formula to review the limit every year
  5. Dramatically increase circulation tax for large motor/SUV petrol cars. I´m talking >1000€ per year

 

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6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Hopefully taxes on less environment friendly cars.

Yer those ones the people who can`t afford an EV have to buy.

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6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

2) You keep forgetting TCO. But that´s what poor people usually do: think only of the immediate cost.

Sorry but what a fucking wanker elitist you are.

You know why poor people think of the immediate cost because that is what matters.

Maybe they can afford 10k for a car that will cost them an extra 20k over it`s lifetime because they only have the 10k at that time.

Then in a year when tax,insurance etc needs paying they then have enough to pay for that.

But what they don`t have at the time they are buying a car is the 20k car that will only cost the say 25k over lifetime.

They actually can`t in many cases afford to save money.

 

Come down out of that ivory tower of yours and sniff the real world.

 

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15 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Start with SUVs and crossovers. Poor people don´t buy them and they are a really big problem for the environment.

 

Are you aware that brands like Dacia make SUVs and Crossovers?  I think you are stuck in 2002.

 

7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Your analogy is flawed. We are not talking about banning companies, we are talking about banning technologies

 

So you are telling me that Android is a company and not a technology? Seriously?

 

I like how you start very confident "Your argument is flawed" and proceed  immediately write something that is basically nonsense.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:
  1. Ban diesel
  2. Force mid/large companies to provide free charging stations for employees
  3. Force large new buildings to have charging stations for tenants
  4. Keep small cheap petrol cars with low circulation taxes until EVs can replace them. You can even make a formula to review the limit every year
  5. Dramatically increase circulation tax for large motor/SUV petrol cars. I´m talking >1000€ per year

 

Or what about add 10k to the price of every EV vehicle which is then set aside to provide cheaper EVs for those who can`t afford them ?

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41 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Premium car, not luxury. Still, as a company car or for someone who drives a lot, it becomes cheaper in terms of TCO than a Golf. That is why it is so hard to define a Tesla: premium price, Ferrari performance, Golf TCO.

 

Somebody who drives a lot !

 

That means you go past the 192,000 km free battery limit quick.  and could be stuck with buying a new battery - given the Model 3 battery is a new design - who can really say if it will be work after 250,000km

 

 

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Sorry but what a fucking wanker elitist you are.

You know why poor people think of the immediate cost because that is what matters.

Maybe they can afford 10k for a car that will cost them an extra 20k over it`s lifetime because they only have the 10k at that time.

Poor people's mindset. If you are taking a loan, you have to do the math of TCO even more than if you pay cash!

One thing I've seen in life is that a lot of poor people stay poor because they can't see past the next day.

 

On the elitist remark, thanks, much appreciated.

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Come down out of that ivory tower of yours and sniff the real world.

Sniff the real world? Let me tell you one thing: I have NO DEBTS! You know why? Because I only buy what I can immediately afford to pay cash! What I see is a lot of people that go into debt unnecessarily. 

I have a shitty <200€ smartphone but I see cleaning ladies with iPhones all the time!

Of course there are people that work hard, that do the math, and still end up poor, but what 've seen is that most get themselves in a debt trap!

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

 

Somebody who drives a lot !

That means you go past the 192,000 km free battery limit quick.  and could be stuck with buying a new battery - given the Model 3 battery is a new design - who can really say if it will be work after 250,000km

Model S has several examples of people driving much more than that.

Here is a German that already drove 900.000km.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-record-mileage-900000-kilometers

 

The Model 3 has a more advanced battery that already showed to degrade much less than the Model S/X.

Remember: they would not offer a 192k warranty if they were not sure it could last double!

 

But let's assume 250.000km over 6 years (40k/y), then the battery dies. That would represent around 10.000€ of fuel savings (charging at home) or 15.000€ savings charging for free, compared to a Diesel. Then add maintenance difference of at least 2000€ per year. So after 6 years you would have saved easily 22.000€, potentially 27.000€. Musk said a replacement battery would be around 10k, but let's assume 15k for extra EU costs. You are still saving money. I'm not even factoring in taxes nor depreciation, which is the highest cost of a car!

 

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

Are you aware that brands like Dacia make SUVs and Crossovers?  I think you are stuck in 2002.

Are you aware that SUVs, independently of manufacturer, are becoming one of the worst pollution emitters?

https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/2019/october/growing-preference-for-suvs-challenges-emissions-reductions-in-passenger-car-mark.html

 

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

So you are telling me that Android is a company and not a technology? Seriously?

A specific OS is not a technology, it is an instance of a technology developed initially by one company (Google).

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Hence, my recommendation to stash away 50 or 60 Euros each time you charge. Just as though you went into a station and bought fuel. Then, battery replacement would be covered (especially if you invest the moneyB))

 

That is what I would/will do.

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57 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Model S has several examples of people driving much more than that.

Here is a German that already drove 900.000km.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-record-mileage-900000-kilometers

 

The Model 3 has a more advanced battery that already showed to degrade much less than the Model S/X.

Remember: they would not offer a 192k warranty if they were not sure it could last double!

 

But let's assume 250.000km over 6 years (40k/y), then the battery dies. That would represent around 10.000€ of fuel savings (charging at home) or 15.000€ savings charging for free, compared to a Diesel. Then add maintenance difference of at least 2000€ per year. So after 6 years you would have saved easily 22.000€, potentially 27.000€. Musk said a replacement battery would be around 10k, but let's assume 15k for extra EU costs. You are still saving money. I'm not even factoring in taxes nor depreciation, which is the highest cost of a car!

 

 

900,000 on a Model S is good

 

Model 3 battery is a different battery so lets not compare

 

Model 3 battery maybe better maybe worse, we just do not have the data to predictions

Its like comparing the life expectancy of 2 men, sure you can guess, but we have no hard data on this type of battery.

 

All your figures are based on nothing changing, suppose demand goes up  and musk start charging more to charge, personally I use a third party garage to get my service done, so pay a fraction of what the dealer wants, maybe in the future the government decide to scrap the road tax discounts - and I accept of things can change for diesels aswell

 

If we are taking about, long distance travel, it will generally be on the autobahn, and were there is little pollution at the local level.

 

 

As you say, we are taking about a 10 year prediction here, of which so much can change, personally, I think if you have the money sure buy a Tesla( makes my air that I breath cleaner), but for people looking for a less risky, lower cost way forward - its still a diesel 

 

 

 

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