Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

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And all this time I thought EV's were/are being developed to help save the planet with zero emissions. All you guys talk about is money. 

 

Seen any pictures of Delhi lately?

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Just now, fraufruit said:

And all this time I thought EV cars were/are being developed to help save the planet with zero emissions. All you guys talk about is money. 

 

Seen any pictures of Delhi lately?

I avoid going into the climate argument because it fails spectacularly with a lot of people. And in my case, my #1 altruistic reason is to fuck up Saudi Arabia, Russia, Venezuela, Angola and other oil-asshole countries.

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6 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

What are you talking about? Both news are from last month! The case in Portugal was the same crap: they only offered a proper price after it reached the news!

 

It is like talking to a wall.   Nissan has a world wide battery replacement program, I don't care enough to Google it, but the prices are reasonable.   But dealers have made mistakes.      The case in Australia is old, from like the beginning of the year, but for whatever reason there were a new round of "reports" in October telling the same story.

 

Dealers make mistakes all the time.   And in this case, those mistakes are valuable because plenty of people profit from them in clickbait websites and YouTube videos.  Then gullible people like you believe it is true.

 

P.S., for whatever reason the battery replacement of the Nissan Leaf in Japan is extremely cheap, U$2600.  But that's not the price for the rest of the world.

 

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1 minute ago, Krieg said:

 

It is like talking to a wall.   Nissan has a world wide battery replacement program, I don't care enough to Google it, but the prices are reasonable.   But dealers have made mistakes.      The case in Australia is old, from like the beginning of the year, but for whatever reason there were a new round of "reports" in October telling the same story.

It surfaced again because more cases showed up, one of them in Portugal.

 

1 minute ago, Krieg said:

Dealers make mistakes all the time.   And in this case, those mistakes are valuable because plenty of people profit from them in clickbait websites and YouTube videos.  Then gullible people like you believe it is true.

It´s not mistake. Dealers lose money when they sell an EV. With an ICE car, dealerships make money with maintenance. But as EVs have much less maintenance, dealers hate them.

The big exception is of course Tesla, which decided to skip dealerships because they realized that dealerships don´t want to sell EVs.

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2 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

It surfaced again because more cases showed up, one of them in Portugal.

 

But you said BOTH cases were recent.  Why is it so difficult to you to accept you were WRONG?   Didn't you say you were working on that?

 

2 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

It´s not mistake. Dealers lose money when they sell an EV. With an ICE car, dealerships make money with maintenance. But as EVs have much less maintenance, dealers hate them.

 

Of course it was a mistake.  The dealer has to quote the price of the global battery replacement program, not a price they pulled out of their butts.   

 

2 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

The big exception is of course Tesla, which decided to skip dealerships because they realized that dealerships don´t want to sell EVs.

 

Back to the Kool-Aid.

 

Dealerships provide as well a big network where to go when you have a problem.

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3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

The big exception is of course Tesla, which decided to skip dealerships because they realized that dealerships don´t want to sell EVs.

 

Absolutely true.  I wanted a Ford Focus EV but gave up trying to talk to the dealerships because they spend all their time trying to convince me to buy a regular ICE Focus. 

 

Dealers suck.  I have no idea why they are allowed to dominate the market in the US like they do.  They are a parasite on the market and provide no value beyond trying to upsell you on crap you do not need.  I would much rather prefer a system where I could rent the car i was interested in buying for a week or so and then buy directly from the manufacturer. 

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9 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Dealerships provide as well a big network where to go when you have a problem.

Yeah and then lock you out of the dealership in 90 degree weather when your less than 3 year old vehicle breaks down and they want to go home instead of helping you like happened to my 86 year old father. 

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Why don't we take a closer look at the Tesla and see if the disadvantages out weigh the advantages of owning one.

 

I'll start with 20 disadvantages that I think may affect the decision of owning one and let @MikeMelga tell us the advantages, then we can all make our own decisions and go about our day.

 

1. Their expensive compared to the limited competition.

2. Charging can take forever compared to refuelling an ICE 

3. Charging outlets are limited in comparison to refuelling a normal car

4. They have only 16 service centres for the whole of Deutschland

5. The batteries will lose their range in colder weathers

6. They are not at all green, it takes 7000 batteries to run a Tesla and they will need replacing at some stage, they cannot just be dumped in the bin.

7.How much horsepower or torque does a Tesla have? Nobody can say as this will differ according to how much power the battery has.

8.  In addition to No.7 Batteries degrade over time and thus power will be reduced.

9. In the event of a crash they will either explode or catch fire. One expert compared the batteries in a Tesla to having 50 sticks of dynamite in the car. 

10. In the event of a crash the cars could take months to be repaired, parts are a problem and despite it being a Tesla it's still like any normal car, it too can have accidents.

11. No way to modify.

12. Can't even add a loud speaker system, well you can try if you can get around the electrical system without getting electrocuted but even then the batteries will drain limiting the vehicles range.

13. It's not a family car as there's only 2 cup holders in the front.

14. You must learn to drive one.

15. You'll have to explain it to your friends and family

16. It makes life owning one more complicated.

17.No spare tyre and they don't have run flats.

18. Autopilot system is questionable

19. There are cheaper alternative modes of transport

20. Then there's the Tesla boy fans, first it was the 'Apple Fan Boys” of yesteryear who would ignore basically everything that would not support Apple as being “the best there is' and now Tesla Fan Boys who have no sense of what reality is anymore.

 

I look forward to comparing the advantages @MikeMelga 

 

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1 hour ago, Sir Percy B said:

Why don't we take a closer look at the Tesla and see if the disadvantages out weigh the advantages of owning one.

 

I'll start with 20 disadvantages that I think may affect the decision of owning one and let @MikeMelga tell us the advantages, then we can all make our own decisions and go about our day.

 

1. Their expensive compared to the limited competition.

2. Charging can take forever compared to refuelling an ICE 

3. Charging outlets are limited in comparison to refuelling a normal car

4. They have only 16 service centres for the whole of Deutschland

5. The batteries will lose their range in colder weathers

6. They are not at all green, it takes 7000 batteries to run a Tesla and they will need replacing at some stage, they cannot just be dumped in the bin.

7.How much horsepower or torque does a Tesla have? Nobody can say as this will differ according to how much power the battery has.

8.  In addition to No.7 Batteries degrade over time and thus power will be reduced.

9. In the event of a crash they will either explode or catch fire. One expert compared the batteries in a Tesla to having 50 sticks of dynamite in the car. 

10. In the event of a crash the cars could take months to be repaired, parts are a problem and despite it being a Tesla it's still like any normal car, it too can have accidents.

11. No way to modify.

12. Can't even add a loud speaker system, well you can try if you can get around the electrical system without getting electrocuted but even then the batteries will drain limiting the vehicles range.

13. It's not a family car as there's only 2 cup holders in the front.

14. You must learn to drive one.

15. You'll have to explain it to your friends and family

16. It makes life owning one more complicated.

17.No spare tyre and they don't have run flats.

18. Autopilot system is questionable

19. There are cheaper alternative modes of transport

20. Then there's the Tesla boy fans, first it was the 'Apple Fan Boys” of yesteryear who would ignore basically everything that would not support Apple as being “the best there is' and now Tesla Fan Boys who have no sense of what reality is anymore.

 

I look forward to comparing the advantages @MikeMelga 

 

Wow, so much bullshit.  Batteries are one of the most recycled things in the waste stream.  The radio runs on 12 volts just like on any other car.  There is no significant drain on the batteries from any rational conceivable stereo system that you would even notice.  You only need to learn to drive one if you need to learn to drive.  Autopilot system is better than on your car since you have none.  Gasoline is much more flammable than batteries and there are much more frequent fires with normal ICE cars than EVs by far.  I could go on but the rest is mostly subjective personal opinion.

 

Yes, they are expensive and yes, there are limitations but lets keep the discussion rational.  Just as there are fanboys, there are irrational Tesla haters. 

 

And before you respond, no, I don't own a Tesla and, yes, for me they are too expensive.

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2 hours ago, fraufruit said:

And all this time I thought EV's were/are being developed to help save the planet with zero emissions. All you guys talk about is money. 

 

Seen any pictures of Delhi lately?

 

 

Is was on the News, the Delhi smog, is due to the local famers burning down their land at this time of the year, apparently it happens most years.

 

I thought Musk, was developing EV cars to make some money, but it helps when people think they are saving the environment at well.

 

Personally I have never understood the argument that buying  a brand new car will save the environment, if you just run an ICE car until it really drops dead, then you save the environmental  effects of building a new car - Building a new will always pollute more than running an older car. 

 

PS I am not a Tesla hater or lover - I just look at the car and ask would I buy one to help the environment - I would say no - because I don't believe it will

 

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25 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Is was on the News, the Delhi smog, is due to the local famers burning down their land at this time of the year, apparently it happens most years.

 

Yes, and it contributes to the already existing smog. What say you about Mexico City, Los Angeles and other smoggy places? My apartment floors in Singapore had to be mopped every time we left the balcony doors open for a few hours to get some fresh air. That was on the 27th floor and 30 years ago. It has gotten worse.

 

Not burning fossil fuels and stopping fracking are things that will help the environment.

 

We get a new (or slightly used) car every 10 years or so. They have to be manufactured - doesn't matter whether ICE or EV.

 

So you don't believe that ICE's pollute the air. Ok.

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2 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

Why don't we take a closer look at the Tesla and see if the disadvantages out weigh the advantages of owning one.

 

I'll start with 20 disadvantages that I think may affect the decision of owning one and let @MikeMelga tell us the advantages, then we can all make our own decisions and go about our day.

 

1. Their expensive compared to the limited competition.

2. Charging can take forever compared to refuelling an ICE 

3. Charging outlets are limited in comparison to refuelling a normal car

4. They have only 16 service centres for the whole of Deutschland

5. The batteries will lose their range in colder weathers

6. They are not at all green, it takes 7000 batteries to run a Tesla and they will need replacing at some stage, they cannot just be dumped in the bin.

7.How much horsepower or torque does a Tesla have? Nobody can say as this will differ according to how much power the battery has.

8.  In addition to No.7 Batteries degrade over time and thus power will be reduced.

9. In the event of a crash they will either explode or catch fire. One expert compared the batteries in a Tesla to having 50 sticks of dynamite in the car. 

10. In the event of a crash the cars could take months to be repaired, parts are a problem and despite it being a Tesla it's still like any normal car, it too can have accidents.

11. No way to modify.

12. Can't even add a loud speaker system, well you can try if you can get around the electrical system without getting electrocuted but even then the batteries will drain limiting the vehicles range.

13. It's not a family car as there's only 2 cup holders in the front.

14. You must learn to drive one.

15. You'll have to explain it to your friends and family

16. It makes life owning one more complicated.

17.No spare tyre and they don't have run flats.

18. Autopilot system is questionable

19. There are cheaper alternative modes of transport

20. Then there's the Tesla boy fans, first it was the 'Apple Fan Boys” of yesteryear who would ignore basically everything that would not support Apple as being “the best there is' and now Tesla Fan Boys who have no sense of what reality is anymore.

 

I look forward to comparing the advantages @MikeMelga 

 

 

I greened you because of the "spirit" of your post, but many of your arguments are really blatantly wrong.

 

2. They charge much faster nowadays, but you are totally missing the point, it is a game changer, you are not supposed to go to the charger that often, like how ICEs go to the petrol station.  If you live in a house you charge at home and never go to the "station".   And nowadays Kaufland, Lidl, Ikea, etc offer one hour free charging while shopping.  More are coming, like Rewe, Aldi, etc.   The real "issue" is long distance trips, so if you travel very long distances very often, and you are not willing to stop for 20 minutes, yes, and EV is not yet for you.

 

3. Read above.

 

5. True but mostly irrelevant to people who do not travel long distances every day.

 

7. Actually very high.  The Tesla S can beat a supercar.

 

12. Come on ...

 

14. Partially true, but not really a big deal.  You have to learn to "feel" how the car accelerates in the different modes and how it breaks especially if it has regenerative brakes.   But then, it is almost the same when you get a new car.

 

17. I have had a total of ONE flat tire in the last 12 years.  Then I called ADAC and towed the car home.

 

In general I get what you are trying to say, but if you criticize Mike for drinking the Tesla Kool-Aid you have to be a bit fairer too.

 

19 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Personally I have never understood the argument that buying  a brand new car will save the environment, if you just run an ICE car until it really drops dead, then you save the environmental  effects of building a new car - Building a new will always pollute more than running an older car. 

 

I don't think it is so straight like that, I think it is more like a curve, because old cars might have poor mileage and pollute more, so once you reach some critical point it will be better to build a new car in the long term.

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2 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

Why don't we take a closer look at the Tesla and see if the disadvantages out weigh the advantages of owning one.

 

I'll start with 20 disadvantages that I think may affect the decision of owning one and let @MikeMelga tell us the advantages, then we can all make our own decisions and go about our day.

 

1. Their expensive compared to the limited competition.  - They are cheaper than their equivalents: Merc, BMW, Audi

2. Charging can take forever compared to refuelling an ICE - 120km in 5 minutes... is that "forever"?

3. Charging outlets are limited in comparison to refuelling a normal car - Overblown topic. You have a vast network of superchargers for long trips. For daily driving, night charging from a 230V plug is good enough. And you have more plugs than fuel stations.

4. They have only 16 service centres for the whole of Deutschland - they do have 10x less moving parts, so much less maintenance

5. The batteries will lose their range in colder weathers - Yeah, below -5°C can be noticeable. But same as normal cars, they also lose performance in cold weather.

6. They are not at all green, it takes 7000 batteries to run a Tesla and they will need replacing at some stage, they cannot just be dumped in the bin. - that is a very vast topic but I can just tell you that depending on the energy mix of each country, they are over their lifetime several times "cleaner" than a normal car.

7.How much horsepower or torque does a Tesla have? Nobody can say as this will differ according to how much power the battery has. - Wrong, wrong, the torque has been measured for several charge levels. On a Model 3, it maintains the same acceleration until the battery is low. It is not battery limited, it is electronic power throughput limited, at least on the Model 3.

8.  In addition to No.7 Batteries degrade over time and thus power will be reduced. - Wrong again, only if your battery won´t charge over 20% or so.

9. In the event of a crash they will either explode or catch fire. One expert compared the batteries in a Tesla to having 50 sticks of dynamite in the car.  - oh, you are SO wrong on this one. Probability of a Tesla catching fire is 5x less than a normal car.

10. In the event of a crash the cars could take months to be repaired, parts are a problem and despite it being a Tesla it's still like any normal car, it too can have accidents. - that was a huge issue during 2018 but in 2019 this improved hugely, although outside US it is still not as easy as with a Mercedes. Right now, if the car detects a faulty part (let´s say a TMS pump about to fail), it will automatically notify HQ to ship a replacement part to the nearest service center

11. No way to modify. - Modify what? The car? Of course. People even take the whole battery and power train and put it on other cars.

12. Can't even add a loud speaker system, well you can try if you can get around the electrical system without getting electrocuted but even then the batteries will drain limiting the vehicles range. - Aiaiaiaia, are you for real?? There are hundreds of shops customizing Teslas

13. It's not a family car as there's only 2 cup holders in the front. - There are 2 more in the back... like it matters...

14. You must learn to drive one. - yeah, they are fast as a Ferrari, so you need to learn how to control it

15. You'll have to explain it to your friends and family

16. It makes life owning one more complicated.

17.No spare tyre and they don't have run flats.- Run flats are a property of the tire, not of the car. Both my Mercs also don´t have them

18. Autopilot system is questionable - questionable ignorance

19. There are cheaper alternative modes of transport - You can say that about anything

20. Then there's the Tesla boy fans, first it was the 'Apple Fan Boys” of yesteryear who would ignore basically everything that would not support Apple as being “the best there is' and now Tesla Fan Boys who have no sense of what reality is anymore. - You, my friend, are living in the past.

 

I look forward to comparing the advantages @MikeMelga 

 

Answers in bold

Damn, almost nothing from your points. You might have some reason on long service times, but not entirely sure if still applies.

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3 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

11. No way to modify.

 

 

 

 

 

Whole process:

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I am both a shareholder and a Tesla owner. I drive the car every day. I´ve driven 2 generations of Leaf, 1 Zoe, I tried out the Kona and Ioniq, so I am not pulling this shit out of my butt.

 

 

Not driven any of those,only electric car I`ve driven is a Taycan :P

 

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@Krieg and @MikeMelga

 

You both receive a greenie for taking the bait, they are arguments copied from a couple of websites who are clearly anti Tesla and/or Elon Musk.

 

I was going to add this at the end of my post but I thought it would give it away.

 

5dc42f607ba79_DisGBGud.png.db020ddf2c5a3

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

 

So you don't believe that ICE's pollute the air. Ok.

Hopefully no one actually thinks that but who knows.

 

The problem I see is that many people seem to think that once EVs are the standard then pollution will be a thing of the past.

It`s the same thing with plastic bags and straws where the onus and the blame is being put on the public rather than on businesses who actually cause the most pollution.

Everyone driving EVs and using metal straws will only solve a very tiny piece of the pollution problem.

 

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2 hours ago, yesterday said:

Personally I have never understood the argument that buying  a brand new car will save the environment, if you just run an ICE car until it really drops dead, then you save the environmental  effects of building a new car - Building a new will always pollute more than running an older car. 

Not really. Until recently old diesels were really a big mess!

 

Quote

 

PS I am not a Tesla hater or lover - I just look at the car and ask would I buy one to help the environment - I would say no - because I don't believe it will

 

Read this article! Best example on how EV are really hugely beneficial for the environment.

https://electrek.co/2017/11/01/electric-cars-dirty-electricicty-coal-emission-cleaner-study/

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

17.No spare tyre and they don't have run flats.- Run flats are a property of the tire, not of the car. Both my Mercs also don´t have them

Do your Mercs have a spare though ?

I`ve noticed over the past few years a spare tyre doesn`t come as standard anymore but rather an optional extra.

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