Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

865 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

This is all problem from 1st generation EVs and bad dealerships, what you are doing here is very unfair.    Yes, the old EVs didn't have proper thermal management or nothing at old like the 2011 Zoes.   But things have changed.  Some of the current models guarantee 80% capacity of the battery after 7 years or something like that.   

 

Just take the same car you are using as a "bad example", the current Nissan Leaf 2019 offers 8 years or 100k miles guarantee for the battery.

Well, although you are right with the warranty for the new cars, the thermal issues are still abundant on the new Leaf.

Meaning issues in cold or hot weather, slow charging, etc.

 

Also, the 2019 Leaf model is so expensive that you better just buy the cheapest Tesla.

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18 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Also, the 2019 Leaf model is so expensive that you better just buy the cheapest Tesla.

 

Between 36k and 44k there is a slight difference.  And that's would be the basic models.

 

But yes, you are somehow correct, the current Nissan Leaf is right now if a very tough segment.    And the upcoming Leaf Plus will be very difficult to sell because it will be really in Tesla price territory.

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Whatever happend to the Hydrogen powered car mewonders?

A few yonks back it was heralded as the next best thing since sliced bread and then..

Nothing!

I would loved to have driven the Honda Hindenburg GT in a future that never happened.

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16 hours ago, slammer said:

Whatever happend to the Hydrogen powered car mewonders?

A few yonks back it was heralded as the next best thing since sliced bread and then..

Nothing!

I would loved to have driven the Honda Hindenburg GT in a future that never happened.

Hydrogen has almost no advantage over electric, for cars (Bus or truck might work). The current single advantage is fast loading time, under 10 minutes. Everything else is worst. It is more expensive, requires exotic and expensive materials, requires a whole new infrastructure, hydrogen is much more dangerous to store than gas, it is much less efficient, has too many parts (high maintenance cost), etc, etc.

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Have any of the "darmastadters seen any trucks using the overhead power gantries on the A5?  

They have been there for a year now and I havent seen a single one!

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Not a lot seems to have changed since the last time the subject came up :)

 

yes Tesla seems to be one of the best e cars (  if not the best ) on the market today, but also it too expensive for most people.

yes, we all still wait for other other e-car to arrive, wait wait wait, maybe good enough, without costing too much

yes we all expect technology to improve and get better e  car at a lower price

yes, we all want faster charging ting times - when will it ever come

 

Its a bit like a 7 year old wait for christmas ...

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Not a lot seems to have changed since the last time the subject came up :)

 

yes Tesla seems to be one of the best e cars (  if not the best ) on the market today,

It is the best EV, period! No discussion! Drive one, especially the Model 3, and you understand why. Not only best EV, but for many car magazines, the best car!

 

27 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

but also it too expensive for most people.

41k€ with Umwelt bonus. Yes, above average car cost (32k€ in Germany) but not by that much. Cheaper to buy than an equivalent Mercedes, BMW or VW. And for sure much cheaper to maintain. For a heavy commuter, the TCO is cheaper than a VW Golf very quickly.

I have a colleague that has a 75km commute (150km/day). He expects to save up to 3500€ per year compared to an ICE car, as his company will allow him to charge for free. See it in that perspective and quickly it sounds like a bargain.

 

Bottom line: when comparing an EV with an ICE, you need to compare the TCO, not the price tag.

 

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41K euro?.... 

 

Well, to put this into prospective... Thats 2/3rds of what I paid for my farmhouse and land.... 

 

Just goes to show that we live in different worlds! 

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28 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

41K euro?... 

 

Well, to put this into prospective... Thats 2/3rds of what I paid for my farmhouse and land... 

Again, the average new car price in Germany is 32k. If you want to make a meaningful comparison, do it with the average car buyer, not your personal farmhouse experience.

 

28 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Just goes to show that we live in different worlds! 

Yep.

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4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Again, the average new car price in Germany is 32k. If you want to make a meaningful comparison, do it with the average car buyer, not your personal farmhouse experience.

 

The average car buyer is not necessarily buying a new car (average price or not).

 

I would personally not describe a difference of 9000 EUR (41000 -32000) as "not that much". 

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Nowadays @MikeMelga is drinking Tesla's Kool-Aid.   And what it's ironic he spreads nonsense fud against non-Tesla EVs.   He is already using the same poor arguments as the anti-EV squad, only that he uses them against non-Tesla EVs.   Like his "examples" of battery replacements for a non-Tesla car, just an isolated mistake by a dealer, or saying that no-Teslas do not have thermal battery management, which is just false.

 

PS. The average new car price in Germany is 28153€, not sure from where he's got that 32K number.   Of course he lives in a different world so he would say 28k and 32k is the same.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

Nowadays @MikeMelga is drinking Tesla's Kool-Aid. 

I am both a shareholder and a Tesla owner. I drive the car every day. I´ve driven 2 generations of Leaf, 1 Zoe, I tried out the Kona and Ioniq, so I am not pulling this shit out of my butt.

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 And what it's ironic he spreads nonsense fud against non-Tesla EVs.   He is already using the same poor arguments as the anti-EV squad, only that he uses them against non-Tesla EVs.   Like his "examples" of battery replacements for a non-Tesla car, just an isolated mistake by a dealer,

Unfortunately far from isolated, same happened in Australia, and it reached the news.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-nissan-leaf-owner-faulty-battery-nightmare/

 

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or saying that no-Teslas do not have thermal battery management, which is just false.

I said bad thermal management. Now who is doing nonsense?

 

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PS. The average new car price in Germany is 28153€, not sure from where he's got that 32K number.   Of course he lives in a different world so he would say 28k and 32k is the same.

Fuck off, will you?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/589607/average-prices-new-cars-germany/

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6 hours ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

The average car buyer is not necessarily buying a new car (average price or not).

That´s why we compare oranges with oranges. If we are talking about new Tesla prices, I will have to compare it with new <put brand> prices!

 

6 hours ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

I would personally not describe a difference of 9000 EUR (41000 -32000) as "not that much". 

Jeez, read the rest! If you talk about TCO, the difference is not that much! Those 9000€ become zero in 3-10 years, depending on your mileage!

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10 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

41k€ with Umwelt bonus. Yes, above average car cost (32k€ in Germany) but not by that much. Cheaper to buy than an equivalent Mercedes, BMW or VW. And for sure much cheaper to maintain. For a heavy commuter, the TCO is cheaper than a VW Golf very quickly.

I have a colleague that has a 75km commute (150km/day). He expects to save up to 3500€ per year compared to an ICE car, as his company will allow him to charge for free. See it in that perspective and quickly it sounds like a bargain.

 

I would advise your colleague to buy a new calculator !

 

I calculate  150km per day * (( number or worked days ) for me its 237 days -  ( holidays, give by the company ) 30)  - Gleitzeit 10 days ie days in company is 197

Which is 150km * 197 gives 29550km per year

 

if I drive at 120kph, mostly on the autobahn I get 4.3 litre from my diesel.

 

I calculate that's (29550 /100) * 4.3 litre per hundred  = 1270.65 litre used for the year, no private trips !

 

Now the tank price of diesel is about 1.25 per litre  gives a cost of 1588 euro per year

 

How does he save 3500 euro per year on diesel ??? he would have to double his per year kms, to 60,000 kms per year to see that saving

 

Tesla gives you 192,000 kms of distance, then the battery will not be replaced for free if it goes wrong

 

192,000 / 60000 per year gives you  3.2 years of use, maybe who knows if the battery will run for 7 years ??

 

In say 4 years your colleague maybe be ask to pay 10000 euro for a new battery !!!

 

Lowest price Tesla is 41k with rebate

Average car price is 28k

difference 41- 28 = 13 K

 

to make up that difference in years, it will   13000  ( difference ) /  1588 ( saved per year with free charge )

 

takes 8 years   

 

How does that make sense

 

I much prefer when Mike, gives figures because is easy to work out where the mistakes are, when he just says everything is better  its difficult to argue against

We should not forget his colleague( if he has one, who does not understand basic math), gets free electricity most people do not so the calculation is even worse  for the most.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

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32 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Unfortunately far from isolated, same happened in Australia, and it reached the news. Will find the link later.

 

LOL.  It is old old news, there were plenty of YouTube videos about it, no need to post anything.  It was a dealer mistake, Nissan make the corrections long time ago, what really happened is that the dealer was not aware of the Nissan replacement battery program and quoted some nonsense price.     That particular case was used by the anti-EV brigade to badmouth the EVs, and now you use it to badmouth the non-Teslas.

 

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I said bad thermal management. Now who is doing nonsense?

 

Oh I see, now it is "bad".   Who said it is bad?  You?  

 

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Sure, no problem, different source, different amount, or maybe I quoted the number for the wrong year.   No need to insult.

 

 

Tesla might be the best EV right now in the market, but its future has several problems, first they are still in the upper class in terms of prices and second they still do not have enough experience building cars.   They are the best ones now because they started first, but once the normal car makers get their things correct Tesla is in for a tough fight and they might lose.   Slowly the older Tesla models are getting old and their inexperience in making cars is starting to show up.  The Tesla S had already multiple recalls, from the top of my head the failing seatbelts, the steering wheel having problems due to corrosion and the parking brakes.    Several models are showing rusting problems, I think in Finland some consumers protection office already said the rusting issue is a real thing and Tesla is not fulfilling the required quality.    Tesla tried to "solve" this by adding some crap to the user manual where they basically blame the user instead.

 

I am not a Tesla hater, and of course not an anti-EV.   I just do not drink any company's Kool-Aid.   I honestly think Tesla will lose the game in the mid and lower price brackets, if they manage to survive they will be the Apple of the EVs.    Which after second thought, it is a very good analogy because you already talk like an Apple user.

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Just now, yesterday said:

 

I would advise your colleague to buy a new calculator !

 

I calculate  150km per day * (( number or worked days ) for me its 237 days -  ( holidays, give by the company ) 30)  - Gleitzeit 10 days ie days in company is 197

Which is 150km * 197 gives 29550km per year

 

if I drive at 120kph, mostly on the autobahn I get 4.3 litre from my diesel.

 

I calculate that's (29550 /100) * 4.3 litre per hundred  = 1270.65 litre used for the year, no private trips !

Of course private trips. You are entitled with a company car. In my case, I do around 7000km of private trips. Besides that, he has more short commutes for his 3(!) kids.

I used 5L/100 as a reference from a new VW Passat. AFAIK, he has an older car, which consumes more, but I used the Passat.

 

 

Just now, yesterday said:

 

Now the tank price of diesel is about 1.25 per litre  gives a cost of 1588 euro per year

 

How does he save 3500 euro per year on diesel ??? he would have to double his per year kms, to 60,000 kms per year to see that saving

Then you need to add maintenance and car tax.

So he does 30.000 from work commute, around 3000 from kids commute, plus let´s say 7000 for private trips. That´s 40.000km. At 5L/100, that´s 2500€. Add 250€ car tax (at least that was what I was paying for my 2 Merc), that´s 2750€.

Maintenance is a bit harder to account for, but I have the example of my colleague with a 2013 Model S. He spent (besides tires) 500€ in total in the past 5-6 years! Assuming you save 500-1000€ per year on maintenance, you reach the value.

 

Just now, yesterday said:

 

Tesla gives you 192,000 kms of distance, then the battery will not be replaced for free if it goes wrong

 

192,000 / 60000 per year gives you  3.2 years of use, maybe who knows if the battery will run for 7 years ??

 

In say 4 years your colleague maybe be ask to pay 10000 euro for a new battery !!!

 

Lowest price Tesla is 41k with rebate

Average car price is 28k

difference 41- 28 = 13 K

 

to make up that difference in years, it will   13000  ( difference ) /  1588 ( saved per year with free charge )

 

takes 8 years   

 

How does that make sense

Read again what I wrote. The likehood that you have to replace your battery outside warranty is very low.

 

Just now, yesterday said:

 

I much prefer when Mike, gives figures because is easy to work out where the mistakes are, when he just says everything is better  its difficult to argue against

We should not forget his colleague( if he has one, who does not understand basic math), gets free electricity most people do not so the calculation is even worse  for the most.

That was an example for TCO. In my case I don´t get free electricity, so my savings are around 2000€ per year, with my short commute.

 

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7 hours ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

The average car buyer is not necessarily buying a new car (average price or not).

 

I would personally not describe a difference of 9000 EUR (41000 -32000) as "not that much". 

 

The average price for used cars is something around 12000€ (I am not going to Google it), I think that's a totally different market and the EVs are still extremely far from those customers.   First we need EVs in lower price brackets, so first we need full development of the ~20000€ segment, which still did not happen but I think we are getting close.   Then we need the prices of those used EVs to go down, which might be another problem because EVs seem to keep their price better in the used market than ICEs, which I still do not know why, but I guess it is because EVs deteriorate at a slower pace than an ICE, probably due to a more "simplistic" engine and the non-existence of plenty of "easy-to-break" parts that ICEs have.

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19 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

LOL.  It is old old news, there were plenty of YouTube videos about it, no need to post anything.  It was a dealer mistake, Nissan make the corrections long time ago, what really happened is that the dealer was not aware of the Nissan replacement battery program and quoted some nonsense price.     That particular case was used by the anti-EV brigade to badmouth the EVs, and now you use it to badmouth the non-Teslas.

What are you talking about? Both news are from last month! The case in Portugal was the same crap: they only offered a proper price after it reached the news!

 

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Oh I see, now it is "bad".   Who said it is bad?  You?  

No, just everybody. There is even a hashtag for it!!!

Literally 5 second search:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/05/60-kwh-nissan-leaf-still-no-liquid-cooled-battery/

https://www.electrive.com/2018/04/08/leaf-drivers-complain-of-rapidgate/

 

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Tesla might be the best EV right now in the market, but its future has several problems, first they are still in the upper class in terms of prices and second they still do not have enough experience building cars.   They are the best ones now because they started first, but once the normal car makers get their things correct Tesla is in for a tough fight and they might lose. 

Tesla success does not come from technology, it comes from 3 factors:

- vertical integration

- continuous development and deployment (SW guys, you know what this is)

- Agile process

 

The technology is a result of the 3 factors above, not just pure luck. So other manufacturers can copy the technology, but they can´t copy the rest because of their old, immobile structure.

 

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 Slowly the older Tesla models are getting old and their inexperience in making cars is starting to show up.  The Tesla S had already multiple recalls, from the top of my head the failing seatbelts, the steering wheel having problems due to corrosion and the parking brakes.    Several models are showing rusting problems, I think in Finland some consumers protection office already said the rusting issue is a real thing and Tesla is not fulfilling the required quality.    Tesla tried to "solve" this by adding some crap to the user manual where they basically blame the user instead.

Still, sells like hot cakes in Norway! Drive around Germany and you will see Mercedes with rust. I was shocked at first, but realized that if you don´t take care of your car, it will rust in the snow.

 

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I am not a Tesla hater, and of course not an anti-EV.   I just do not drink any company's Kool-Aid.   I honestly think Tesla will lose the game in the mid and lower price brackets, if they manage to survive they will be the Apple of the EVs.    Which after second thought, it is a very good analogy because you already talk like an Apple user.

Let´s talk again in a year. I have a lot of reasons on why I think you are wrong, but to sum it up: BMW could go bankrupt much faster than Tesla.

 

I´ve followed Musk since 2005, with SpaceX. What they are doing in that industry is simply amazing. They did not invent a single thing: they just focused on cost and continuous improvement. Now they dominate the market and in 5 years they will basically have the monopoly.

When I started looking out of Tesla, I saw the same pattern: new company on the block, everybody saying quality was shit, that it would go bankrupt. Same as SpaceX.

 

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4 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 Then we need the prices of those used EVs to go down, which might be another problem because EVs seem to keep their price better in the used market than ICEs, which I still do not know why, but I guess it is because EVs deteriorate at a slower pace than an ICE, probably due to a more "simplistic" engine and the non-existence of plenty of "easy-to-break" parts that ICEs have.

Yeah, also because of:

- fear of diesel being banned

- cheaper maintenance and running costs

- better for tax avoidance as company cars

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