Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

826 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

 

There is a shitload of environmental damage done by ANY extractive mining. Particularly when not done correctly. Why pick on electric vehicles and not cell phones or TV sets (or standard cars)? 

 

I think hes referring to the fact that many proponents of EVs are often like religious zealots and seem to believe that 

Evs are the answer to pollution problems.

 

For example this from Keith2011 in response to my comment that I cannot afford a new or used EV.

 

"Well if all you can afford is some smelly, noisy , polluting  old diesel then maybe you should consider some other option for the future, like a pushbike, or maybe even an e-bike. "

 

I`ve never owned a diesel in my life but like I say he`s like some religious zealot in his support for EVs.

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15 hours ago, Keleth said:

I think hes referring to the fact that many proponents of EVs are often like religious zealots and seem to believe that 

Evs are the answer to pollution problems.

 

For example this from Keith2011 in response to my comment that I cannot afford a new or used EV.

 

"Well if all you can afford is some smelly, noisy , polluting  old diesel then maybe you should consider some other option for the future, like a pushbike, or maybe even an e-bike. "

 

I`ve never owned a diesel in my life but like I say he`s like some religious zealot in his support for EVs.

 

I interpreted it more as the "Nirvana fallacy" which is false dichotomy that assumes that if we can't have a perfect solution that solves all of our problems (e.g. totally non-polluting EVs) then we should do nothing at all.

 

However, I do agree that there are zealots on both sides.  I personally drive a diesel, however it is a Ford Fiesta Econetic which has some of the lowest tailpipe emissions around.

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Sticking this here because of the EV discussion. Looks interesting.

 

 

Quote

 

A team of scientists at Penn State University in Pennsylvania has developed a method through which lithium-ion batteries can heat up to 140 degrees Fahrenheit for 10 minutes and then rapidly cool down to ambient temperatures, allowing them to charge in that short time.

The self-heating battery uses a thin nickel foil with one end attached to the negative terminal and the other extending outside the cell to create a third terminal. A temperature sensor attached to a switch causes electrons to flow through the nickel foil to complete the circuit. When charging, this rapidly heats up the nickel foil through resistance heating and warms the inside of the battery. 

According to the researchers, rapid heating and subsequent cooling do not cause lithium spikes, which means that heat degradation of the battery does not occur...

 

 

the rest

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I also read yesterday that in Germany the registration of electric cars has doubled in the first 9(?) months of the year to 89,000.  Hybrid registrations were 190,000, which was a 75% increase.

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I dint read yesterday the the authoriies have done something about all the shipping on the Main... Nor have they done anything about cigarette smoke polution! :angry:

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59 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

I also read yesterday that in Germany the registration of electric cars has doubled in the first 9(?) months of the year to 89,000.  Hybrid registrations were 190,000, which was a 75% increase.

 

I think it will get better next year because there will be more "affordable" options, plenty of new cars in the 25k-30k € are being released right now.

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9 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

25-30 k price... PLUS battery rental!

 

Nope, no battery rental, that's the final price.  And you might get some money back from the government (up to 4k???).

 

While they are not really affordable cars, the situation is getting better.

 

Some cars in this range of prices:

 

- MG SZ 

- Honda E (But only the basic version is in that bracket)

- Renault Zoe (2020 version)

- VW ID.3 (Maybe a bit out of that price bracket before government rebate)

- VW e-Golf (Same as the id.3, a bit over 30k before rebate)

- Kia e-Soul

- Peugeot e 208

 

I think we are just a couple of years from the sub 20k € EV,   The MG SZ was actually pretty close, with the double rebate they offered for the first batch (sold out now) you could get one for 21k £ and if you consider they are throwing the charger home installation for free (which could be another 1k to 2k depending on your situation) it was a sweat deal.   But haters will say it is a Chinese car and not a real MG.

 

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Please google Renault zoe lease..

 

 

 

I wonder if MikeMelga has a battery rental clause in his purchase contract... 

 

Edited... I removed the "You definately neeed" part...  but its deffinately an option and a reccomended option at that!

 

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In 5 years the only reason not to buy an EV is because there won´t be enough factories to produce enough.

ICE cars will die very, very, fast.

 

Regarding the new sub-30k€ cars, they are half decent, especially for short commute.

I would say the Zoe and perhaps the upcoming ID3 are the best at that range.

The e-Golf is dead.

 

One issue with those cars is that they loose value much faster than ICE cars or a Tesla.

This is due to the battery/thermal management technology, which leads to fast degradation of the battery.

I expect the ID3 to be the first sub 30k€ to handle this properly, so I´m looking forward to see it on the streets.

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13 minutes ago, Krieg said:

... And you might get some money back from the government (up to 4k???).

...

 

I caught something on the radio this morning where the said it is being discussed if this should be increased to 6k.

 

 

3 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Please google Renault zoe lease..

 

you definately need to rent the battery...

..

 

 

Yes, for some leases at least this is true.  And the advertised price is excluding this (in the small print!). 

But not sure this is the case if you purchase the vehicle.

 

Actually, renting might be better if it is expected that the batteries need replacing after 5-8 years.  Then you don't have the upfront cost/reduced resale value of having to buy new ones.

 

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Was roaming through youtube the other day and this popped up in the recommended list...

Haven't any clue about it, but China seems to be on the front foot of this sector at the moment.

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Just now, SpiderPig said:

Please google Renault zoe lease..

 

you definately need to rent the battery...

 

I think you are somehow correct for the Zoe, I was posting the "Europe" prices.  But in the German website they have only the option to lease the battery, but then the base price of the car is down to 22k€ before rebate.    You are supposed to be able to buy the battery for 7K but I couldn't find the option in the configurator.

 

2 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

One issue with those cars is that they loose value much faster than ICE cars or a Tesla.

This is due to the battery/thermal management technology, which leads to fast degradation of the battery.

I expect the ID3 to be the first sub 30k€ to handle this properly, so I´m looking forward to see it on the streets.

 

I think there is no EV car nowadays without thermal battery management.   Maybe not as advanced as in Teslas, but they have it.   

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56 minutes ago, Krieg said:

I think there is no EV car nowadays without thermal battery management.   Maybe not as advanced as in Teslas, but they have it.   

yeah, they have it... they reduce power or reduce top speed or reduce charging speed. They get very inefficient in the winter and hot summer and they loose capacity.

 

The Leaf is an example of a good EV, which suffers from bad thermal management and often severe capacity loss. Worst, they charge a huge amount of money for a replacement battery.

https://insideevs.com/news/379055/nissan-30000-euros-leaf-battery/

Funny, after it showed up on the news, they dropped the price to 9000€.

 

Tesla has a very good battery coverage and they are still selling updated batteries for the original Roadster! Any successful EV manufacturer will have to do the same. My assumption is that if I keep my Model 3 long enough (I don´t think so), I might have to replace the battery (in 12-15 years?) and by then I will just have one that weights half, costs a fraction and improves acceleration and range.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/roadster-3_0-battery-upgrade

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I read that Merkel is planning to have 1 million charging stations in Germany by 2030.

 

I also read about another plan where, instead of charging the cars, you just exchange the battery for a charged one. Reminded me of propane tanks. Of course, there would have to be some kind of standard for the batteries then.

 

I guess the thing to do is, every time you charge your battery, throw €60 or so in a pot to save for the new battery.

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1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

I read that Merkel is planning to have 1 million charging stations in Germany by 2030.

10 year promises are empty promises. Want to do some proper EV incentive? Make large/mid size companies install chargers for employees. Give them a tax rebate or some incentive per installation point.

 

1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

 

I also read about another plan where, instead of charging the cars, you just exchange the battery for a charged one. Reminded me of propane tanks. Of course, there would have to be some kind of standard for the batteries then.

Tesla tried to do that but ultimately it is not a good idea. When charging times drop considerably, it stops making sense.

Right now you can charge 120km in 5 minutes with a Tesla, under optimal conditions. Battery swapping would not be much faster.

 

1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

I guess the thing to do is, every time you charge your battery, throw €60 or so in a pot to save for the new battery.

No! A proper battery warranty avoids it. (Again, yes, I know...) Tesla has a good battery warranty and they honor it.

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The last car I bought was a 1990 model 4.8 liter Grand Cherokee with 250.000 km´s on the clock, I paid 800 Euros for it and drove it for six years untill TüV did us depart, it never had any major problems, it ran quiet and had room to spare, it drank 7 to 10 liters to 100 (except while towing a boat where it did 40 liters up the Kasseler Berge.) and I was very happy with it.

I wonder if in another 20 years somebody will say the same about their EV.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

yeah, they have it... they reduce power or reduce top speed or reduce charging speed. They get very inefficient in the winter and hot summer and they loose capacity.

 

The Leaf is an example of a good EV, which suffers from bad thermal management and often severe capacity loss. Worst, they charge a huge amount of money for a replacement battery.

https://insideevs.com/news/379055/nissan-30000-euros-leaf-battery/

Funny, after it showed up on the news, they dropped the price to 9000€.

 

This is all problem from 1st generation EVs and bad dealerships, what you are doing here is very unfair.    Yes, the old EVs didn't have proper thermal management or nothing at old like the 2011 Zoes.   But things have changed.  Some of the current models guarantee 80% capacity of the battery after 7 years or something like that.   

 

Just take the same car you are using as a "bad example", the current Nissan Leaf 2019 offers 8 years or 100k miles guarantee for the battery.

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3 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

@MikeMelga

 

do you have any rental agreement with tesla for your battery or additional insurance for it?

Tesla offers no rental agreement for the battery.

The warranty covers 8 years or 192.000km. 70% of capacity assured. The vast majority of Teslas lose around 1pp of capacity per year, which means 8% in 10 years. So for the average car this is not an issue.

As I only drive 15.000km per year, it means the 8 years limit will be reached earlier. In 8 years, it means I will have at very least 70% of capacity, which is more than 400km of range, which still makes it a very useful car.

Worst case, battery goes dead after 8 years. No official statement, but a tweet from Elon a few months ago said that a replacement battery could be done under $10.000. Put 8 more years of R&D on it and the price will even be lower.

 

So no, I don´t need additional insurance for it.

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