Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

826 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

Why dont you go and start your own " I Love My Tesla" Thread?..

 

This one is about diesel prohibiton and not your Ego.. 

I have a diesel car and I am concerned that it will be prohibited inside the city at some point. That means an alternative "fuel" must replace diesel. EVs is well worth discussing in the thread. 

 

I mentioned that I would buy an EV not because of ego, but to show that I put my money where my mouth is.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me that E cars do have a future, but its just not developed enough for me to want to buy one  yet.

 

if you look at the superchargers in europe, there do not seem to lots at the moment, to compete with petrol/diesel stations.

 v3 chargers are gong to be installed from the 4th quarter https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/06/teslas-new-supercharger-slashes-charging-times/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=oR2ZhUf4jiWfzKcGfJazTA

And how long will it be before its a useable network ???

Most charge stations ie non supercharge stations, take a very long time to charge! and thats the biggest number shown on the tesla website

ok 120km in 5mins is better than a v2 station, but 5 mins gets me to a full tank of diesel 600K- so V3 does not give me what I already have.

 

and then law makes are backing off from banning diesel from city centers https://www.thelocal.de/20190315/diesel

 

Sure its a good thing to get a local environmentally friendly car, and I will buy when it can do what I do with my car ( or I have no choice :)). and I understand if its good enough for what @Mike wants to do with it then he will buy it- I hope @Mike  is happy with it.

 

I do not really see a reason to get in at the beginning, when prices are only going to fall if it goes mainstream and facilities become better, maybe one day I will buy @mikes old tesla

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yesterday said:

if you look at the superchargers in europe, there do not seem to lots at the moment, to compete with petrol/diesel stations.

 

Oh really?

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

And how long will it be before its a useable network ???

 

We drove from M. Vorpomm to Sicily and back in march last year, no problem. around 5000km. Only place without a supercharger was Sicily ( apart from 1 at a hotel ) I know there`s now 2 because there is now one under our carport / garage there.

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

Most charge stations ie non supercharge stations, take a very long time to charge!

 

So use a supercharger, as I pointed out on the last thread, if you stop every 200km or so for a pipi and coffee, its a 30 minute stop.

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

maybe one day I will buy @mikes old tesla

 

Good luck, you`d need to join a very long waiting list for mine :P

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If diesel control does not come ( which is what this post is about ), of which Frankfurt has backed off for now, does anybody here see the reason why to buy an e-car at the moment ?

Unless you are want to be a green person ? or to impress you friends and family ?

 

Because it seems to me there are no real advantages of e-cars - they take longer to fill and do not go as far also you have to manage charging and you are buying to an as yet un-proven technology - at least for the long term.    

 

I would not say its not a wrong decision, because people use cars in different ways - its not for me because, sometimes I like to go Lake Garda, which is 255 miles from me - We normally drive without out a stop - The model 3  ( 35000 ), just cannot make it without at least one stop. Also I like to go skiing, if we drive from Munich to Ischgl ( for example ), a Model 3 will be right of the edge of its range - when we get to Ischgl, there is a big rush to get a ski pass and get up the hill - There is a charge point for Tesla in Ischgl, but what should I do. Should I plug my Model 3 in and wait 50 mins to charge - NO, should I plug the car in and leave it there for the day, so nobody can use it - NO, should I plug it in ski skiing, and come back in an hour NO - should leave it in the public car park, finish the ski day, then drive the Testa to the charge station and wait for 45 mins ???

 

I would imagine, for @Spiderpig, he wants to drive it from Frankfurt to Augsburg to install 2 sat dishes , he does not really want to stop - because he needs the time to install the sat dishes, maybe his customers do not have supercharges at their house/flat, so he has to stop charge up and get lunch, then he needs to install the next one and stop again to charge at some point on his way home. So in a an e-car he has to stop 3 times ( 50 mins each ) for electricity -  where as he could do the whole trip in one 5 min stop for diesel. sorry if I am wrong SP.

 

@LeCheese, I am glad you are happy with your Tesla, driving it down to Sicily on a leisurely holiday trip must be nice, when you do not have any real time pressure - At my age I just do not want to drive that far, we went to Sicily in 2015, but we took a plane trip and hired a car - just because we thought is would be easier - no decision is wrong, it just personal choice

@LeCheese, you went last year in your Tesla to Sicily, because the 35000 Model 3 car was not available in Europe  at that  point I guess you bought one for plus 60,000 ( model S or X )- which is nice, but not everybody has 60,000 to spend on a car or just does not want to.

 

When you buy anything it should suite what you are going to do with it, for example @Mike says he will get a Model 3, charge it at home, drive to work, come back, and charge it again at home, perfect it fits what he wants to do with it, seems like a good decision to me.

 

I say again, although e-cars are getting much better and it can be said the dis advantages better e cars and ICE are getting smaller , I think at this point in time, Diesel/petrol is better for me and I think most people - but some people will buy them and, of course all this depends on large scale regulation of ICE cars.  Frankfurt put itself into a bit of a BREXIT situation, in that Frankfurt wanted Diesels banned for very good reasons, put the plans in place and then backed off when they could see what the consequences would be, I do not see how the consequences of banning is going to change in the short term - so I do not see diesels getting banned - and hence why buy an e-car when diesels are more versatile and cheaper ?? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here we go again, yes, at the moment an e-car might not be an option for people who drive long distance often and are not willing to compromise with a short stop every 300 km or whatever.   Then to not buy one, it is not for you.  e-car technology is starting, so obviously it is not yet prepared to cover everyone's requirements.

 

But in the other hand there are plenty of people who might want one for other reasons.  I would be happy to use one as a city car because it would be cheaper in the long term, and I live in a house so I could charge it at home and basically never go to a charging station.    We have two cars, so the other one could be used for long term trips until technology gets better, but I am willing to stop for 20 or so minutes every 300 km, I do not have any problem with it, I actually do it all the time when traveling with our ICE car..

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, yesterday said:

@LeCheese, I am glad you are happy with your Tesla, driving it down to Sicily on a leisurely holiday trip must be nice, when you do not have any real time pressure

 

35 hour drive, no hotel stops, took it in turns to drive.. hardly leisurely.

 

9 minutes ago, yesterday said:

@LeCheese, you went last year in your Tesla to Sicily, because the 35000 Model 3 car was not available in Europe  at that  point I guess you bought one for plus 60,000 ( model S or X )- which is nice, but not everybody has 60,000 to spend on a car or just does not want to.

 

We have the Model S - the bold above isn't an arguement, not everybody can aford a porch carerra either but they are still bought

12 minutes ago, yesterday said:

When you buy anything it should suite what you are going to do with it,

 

Drive - its a car, albeit one thats good for the environment.

13 minutes ago, yesterday said:

and hence why buy an e-car when diesels are more versatile and cheaper ?? 

 

Seems like the banning and or rstrictions on Diesel cars makes them far less versatile.. but what do I know.

 

Current pricing makes an E-car ( of whatever make ) a luxury, ho0wegver, that has never stopped anyone if they have the urge. I have a tesla, another family member has an E-Golf, another has an Electro Roller, my next car will be a Tesla and any other vehicles we buy in future will also be Electric where possible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If ICE engines are phased out, then the Petrol/Fossil fuel industry will probably colapse... this will have a huge knock-on effect... 

 

Plastic manufacture.. Lubrication.. wax productes plus much much more... 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, yesterday said:

If diesel control does not come ( which is what this post is about ), of which Frankfurt has backed off for now, does anybody here see the reason why to buy an e-car at the moment ?

Unless you are want to be a green person ? or to impress you friends and family ?

 

Because it seems to me there are no real advantages of e-cars - they take longer to fill and do not go as far also you have to manage charging and you are buying to an as yet un-proven technology - at least for the long term.   

 

Here are some bullet points.

 

Pros

  • Much lower maintenance costs
  • Lower running costs (~60% lower)
  • Less taxes to pay
  • Less depreciation
  • Excellent acceleration and overall performance
  • Much safer than normal cars (https://www.tesla.com/de_DE/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa)
  • Less noise while driving
  • More storage area for the same car external volume
  • Finally an end of that feeling that you are being cheated by your repair shop!
  • Less money going to Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Angola and other asshole-ruled countries
  • Geopolitically weapon of Europe (choice of energy sources)
  • Electric grid  versatility (choice of energy sources)
  • Electric grid optimization (leveling out peak times)
  • Energy independence (if you want to be "off-grid")
  • Lower house heating costs for a combined solution (solar panels, heat pump, battery, electric car)
  • and yes, environmentally friendly

Cons:

  • Charge times. 5 minutes = 120km. Is that a real problem?
  • Cost. Completely offset by Total Cost of Ownership
  • Battery life. Around 10-15 years. Offset by possibilities of upgrading to a more recent technology.

 

Now the question is: for a mid-priced car (40-60k€), does it even make sense to buy an ICE car again?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

If ICE engines are phased out, then the Petrol/Fossil fuel industry will probably colapse... this will have a huge knock-on effect... 

 

Plastic manufacture.. Lubrication.. wax productes plus much much more... 

No, because of demand. Saudi and Venezuelan oil are extremely cheap to harvest. All offshore oil industry would collapse, but countries like Saudi Arabia can still make a marginal profit at $10 a barrel. If there is demand for plastics, they would continue to produce.

Timewise, first there would be a massive price droppage due to low demand. Then most of the industry would collapse. Then after a few years, a much smaller industry would raise prices again, as new investments are required.

There will be no supply shortage during this cycle as there are huge stokepiles. The US alone has 5 years worth of oil stored. Saudi Arabia and others store oil to drive up the price.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Here are some bullet points.

 

Pros are you sure your points are not cons ?

  • Much lower maintenance costs   -    MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince
  • Lower running costs (~60% lower)  MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince
  • Less taxes to pay       accepted but Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ is going to cost less over life time, buy second hand and you save even more on ICE cars
  • Less depreciation        now way MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince
  • Excellent acceleration and overall performance - only if its important to you
  • Much safer than normal cars (https://www.tesla.com/de_DE/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa)     arguable - not so many e-cars on the road to draw a fiar comparison
  • Less noise while driving  - Most diesel engines are drowned out by tyre noise = same as e-cars
  • More storage area for the same car external volume   Accepted
  • Finally an end of that feeling that you are being cheated by your repair shop!  can hppen with either type of car
  • Less money going to Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Angola and other asshole-ruled countries  why do you hate these people ??
  • Geopolitically weapon of Europe (choice of energy sources)   Accepted  - but no biggy to me
  • Electric grid  versatility (choice of energy sources)   Accpted but no biggy to me
  • Electric grid optimization (leveling out peak times)   Accpted but no biggy to me
  • Energy independence (if you want to be "off-grid")  NO way, disel is far more available
  • Lower house heating costs for a combined solution (solar panels, heat pump, battery, electric car) that's not the normal situation  - very few people have that kinda setup
  • and yes, environmentally friendly     yes the only real reason to get only that I can see

Cons: or Pros

  • Charge times. 5 minutes = 120km. Is that a real problem? Disiel car 5mins 600+ which one is better !, take your time to think about
  • Cost. Completely offset by Total Cost of Ownership   MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince
  • Battery life. Around 10-15 years. Offset by possibilities of upgrading to a more recent technology.   There is not enough real world data available at the moment to support this. Tesla upgrade there batteries every 3 years trying to make them better - but very low number sold to date do not give any real world data for 10 to 15 years and then the batteries will be different over that time period.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike... do you actually read what you post?.. 

 

How do you think all the metailc parts in an e car are manufactured?   

 

Lets see if le Fromage will answer as to maintenance costs of his/her Tesla... 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Here are some bullet points.

 

Pros are you sure your points are not cons ?

  • Much lower maintenance costs   -    MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince
  • Lower running costs (~60% lower)  MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince
  • Less taxes to pay       accepted but Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ is going to cost less over life time, buy second hand and you save even more on ICE cars
  • Less depreciation        now way MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince

Why are you comparing apples with oranges? As stated before, the average car price in Germany is over 30.000€. Clearly, the average person does NOT buy a Dacia Sandero!

 

2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

 

Not arguable, it is a crash test, not a statistical test.

 

2 minutes ago, yesterday said:
  • Less noise while driving  - Most diesel engines are drowned out by tyre noise = same as e-cars

This borders nonsense. Have you ever tried out an EV?

 

2 minutes ago, yesterday said:
  • Less money going to Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Angola and other asshole-ruled countries  why do you hate
  • these people ??

Not the people, their government. Saudi Arabia is financing terrorism all over the world. Ask any non-Saudi Muslim what they think about Saudi Arabia. They hate them. Venezuela´s Maduro is killing his people. Angola is just pure corruption.

 

2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Cons: or Pros

  • Charge times. 5 minutes = 120km. Is that a real problem? Disiel car 5mins 600+ which one is better !, take your time to think about

Yes... Diesel is better in 1% of the situations...

 

2 minutes ago, yesterday said:
  • Battery life. Around 10-15 years. Offset by possibilities of upgrading to a more recent technology.   There is not enough real world data available at the moment to support this. Tesla upgrade there batteries every 3 years trying to make them better - but very low number sold to date do not give any real world data for 10 to 15 years and then the batteries will be different over that time period.

Roadster been running for 11 years. Model S for 6 years. Battery degradation has been thorougly studied and it is around 1-1.5% per year.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Lets see if le Fromage will answer as to maintenance costs of his/her Tesla... 

 

 

Less than the maintenance costs of our  ICE Dodge pickup, I do not have the figures at hand but off the top of my head, about half. Only major repair was to the charger on our property, which had been wired up badly and burnt out. At some point I will change the battery but it is still fine. Basically, they don`t go wrong ( assuming you did not get one of the lemons to start with, which is the same as with any car, ICE or E)

If there was an off road E pickup produced by Tesla I would buy one in a new york second.

 

From a real world owners perspective, the Model S is perhaps the best car I have ever driven / owned &  we have a Model X on order

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, yesterday said:

MODEL 3 cost 35000  new  - Dacia Sandero Ab 6.990€ that's a lot of maintaince

 

Seriously?  You are comparing the bottom of the barrel car with a premium car.  Of course a Sandero would be cheaper.   Of course a Maserati would be expensive.   Of course Lidl Putinoff Vodka is cheaper than Grey Goose vodka.   

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many of us don't have the option of buying an e car simply because there are no chargers in our underground garages and no place to put them anyway. I have seen some chargers on the side of the road but who wants find an available one and just sit there whilst charging?

 

I would love to have one, BTW.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Seriously?  You are comparing the bottom of the barrel car with a premium car.  Of course a Sandero would be cheaper.   Of course a Maserati would be expensive.   Of course Lidl Putinoff Vodka is cheaper than Grey Goose vodka.   

 

 

I just have read what you wrote

you wrote that you want a second, city car - I always  thought  a city car should be quite small, good for parking, cheaper ie no bells and whistles as its not  intended for longer journeys - But the Tesla Model 3 a full size car - that's why a  Dacia Sandero  would more suitable for what you said you wanted. or maybe Fiat 500/panda/Renual Zoe or any number of other cars

 

@Mile, your requirement for a 'fast' car to get you to your work and back - is that so important ? yes, if you had read my other posts you would have seen that I a Renault Zoe for a day - but did not think it was for me.

 

@LeCheese, yeah, my option comes from what I can afford, living in Munich, and the practicability of it for my life, I accept other people have different circumstances and therefore make other decision, you sound to have your own house, that you fitted a charging point to a Tesla > 60,000Euro  and a Model X on order, you have a second e-golf and scooter + at least one ICE on top, I think you would make different decision to what I would make. But do not get me wrong I am happy that you would make different decision,  like would be boring if everybody thought the same way.

 

And what would SP think, his interest was, if I remember in a car costing 6000Euro ( second hand ), clear all e-cars cannot be had for that at the moment.

 

Just seems to be that we are all different, with different requirements, I have seen many u-tube videos about how good the Tesla is and many who slag off things like the build quality and any other things, worth a watch if you get time. - I came to the conclusion its not for me - others will come to a different decision. all can read why from my post above

 

And of course I have a underground garage, where I could plug in, but I guess I would have pay for it as the people in the block would not be happy for me to take the electricity without paying for it. I would like to have one, purely its green and I would save the environment 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, yesterday said:

@Mile, your requirement for a 'fast' car to get you to your work and back - is that so important ? yes, if you had read my other posts you would have seen that I a Renault Zoe for a day - but did not think it was for me.

 

I don´t have that requirement because I´m stuck at traffic. My requirement there is some level 2 autonomous driving so I can relax in the mitlerer ring.

Regarding performance, I am not a fast driver, but I enjoy having a car with good cornering hability, as well as acceleration.

BTW, that is a downside on EVs, there is no gearbox, so you can´t play so much as with a manual sticker.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yesterday said:

you wrote that you want a second, city car - I always  thought  a city car should be quite small, good for parking, cheaper ie no bells and whistles as its not  intended for longer journeys -

 

Your definition of a city car might not be the same as others' definition. 

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

But the Tesla Model 3 a full size car - that's why a  Dacia Sandero  would more suitable for what you said you wanted.

 

Tesla 3: 469x185x142

Dacia Sandero: 405x199x151

 

So the Tesla is 64 cm longer, but it is narrower and shorter.   I fail to see how the Dacia Sandero is a small car and the Tesla 3 is a full size car.

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

@Mile, your requirement for a 'fast' car to get you to your work and back - is that so important ?

 

While in the city you do not need a car with high final speed, having a car that sprints decently is something positive.   Nothing worst than waiting for a chance to cross an intersection and when you finally have a chance you remember your car is bloody slow.

 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LeCheese said:

 

Only major repair was to the charger on our property, which had been wired up badly and burnt out. At some point I will change the battery but it is still fine. Basically, they don`t go wrong ( assuming you did not get one of the lemons to start with, which is the same as with any car, ICE or E)

 

Now, theres an honest answer..!! Thank you...

 

So, if the battery is "Fine"... then why change it?  

 

Who installed the charging unit? A local Sparkie or one that was suggested by Tesla?  And why werent they responsible for a poor installation? 

 

Lastly... How is payment taken when you "charge" at a remote site?  Do you hook up the car and the car talks to some server and allocates ammount of power consumed or what?  Please can someone explain this to me?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now