Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

462 posts in this topic

On 1/11/2019, 8:00:01, Krieg said:

They can wait until low priced cars arrive to the market.   Which might take several years, or a decade.   

What about the poor buggers in Stuttgart, who have to change their diesels by February?  BTW, isn't it interesting that Stuttgart is also the home of Mercedes and Porsche?

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The problem with Stuttgart is that its is situated in a Bowl.... so the air movement tends to be minimal or even still... I do think I have ever experienced a windy day it Stuttgart center. 

 

They installed a few of them big fans to try and blow the fog away... but nowt happened... 

 

Another strange coincidence... The Neckar river... ( Hamburg has its Harbour.. Frankfurt has the Main/Rhein ... )  but no one has ever thought that the boats/Shipping could be the bringer of such shitty air to the towns and villages!!

 

Nope... lets ban diesel...   cnuts!

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The Feinstaub in Stuttgart is only partly caused by diesel cars and trucks.  Construction sites are the big contributor, industry, wood fires in home fireplaces and 2-stroke engines too.  Gasoline cars are also part of the mix.  The biggest problem is congestion, and that comes from numerous bottlenecks, an over-abundance of traffic lights and sheer traffic volume.  The answer is not to ban diesels but to reduce the number of cars moving through the city centre, so that traffic moves rather than sits.  In my opinion, a city toll similar to London or Stockholm would achieve that quickly, but that is not being considered. 

 

Stuttgart doesn't have a ring highway, so the main routes go through the middle of town.  It was also designed after the war to be the 'Autogerechte Stadt' or the car-favoured city.  The problem with building for cars is that you get more cars, which you then need to build for, ad infinitum.  It doesn't work, and makes cities shitty to live in, take any North American suburb as an example.  However, a sea-change in thinking in the Detroit of Germany against cars is unthinkable...

 

As for policing the new diesel ban, who the hell knows how that's going to work.  You'd have to pull people over and check their Fahrzeugschein - time consuming.  It doesn't affect me, I get to continue driving my big Euro 3 diesel through town under the general exception rule for Lieferverkehr.  So, the question is, how much is this going to actually solve?

 

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Have you never heard on ANPR  (Automatic Number plate recognition) cameras...

 

Would only take a week to install the cameras... the rest of the work is done by compúters... 

 

Quote

The Feinstaub in Stuttgart is only partly caused by diesel cars and trucks.  Construction sites are the big contributor, industry, wood fires in home fireplaces and 2-stroke engines too.  Gasoline cars are also part of the mix.  The biggest problem is congestion,

 

What about cigarettes?  

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1 minute ago, SpiderPig said:

Have you never heard on ANPR  (Automatic Number plate recognition) cameras...

 

Would only take a week to install the cameras... the rest of the work is done by compúters... 

 

 

 

If they do that they should start collecting tolls.

 

ANPR's are not (at least yet) going to be installed, the ban will be enforced by random checks by police:

 

Ein Verstoß soll nach den Worten von Verkehrsminister Winfried Hermann (Grüne) 80 Euro Strafe kosten. "Die Kontrollen werden stichprobenartig durch die Polizei und das Ordnungsamt Stuttgart im fließenden und ruhenden Verkehr erfolgen", sagt er der Südwest Presse. In Hamburg, wo es auf einzelnen Strecken Fahrverbote gibt, werden bei einer Missachtung für Autofahrer 20 Euro und für Lastwagenfahrer 75 Euro fällig

 

 

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1 minute ago, kapokanadensis said:

 

If they do that they should start collecting tolls.

 

ANPR's are not (at least yet) going to be installed, the ban will be enforced by random checks by police:

 

Ein Verstoß soll nach den Worten von Verkehrsminister Winfried Hermann (Grüne) 80 Euro Strafe kosten. "Die Kontrollen werden stichprobenartig durch die Polizei und das Ordnungsamt Stuttgart im fließenden und ruhenden Verkehr erfolgen", sagt er der Südwest Presse. In Hamburg, wo es auf einzelnen Strecken Fahrverbote gibt, werden bei einer Missachtung für Autofahrer 20 Euro und für Lastwagenfahrer 75 Euro fällig

 

 

A toll or a fine... the end result is almost the same... the driver get punished..

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Tolls are a choice, you don't have to pay them.  You can avoid them by avoiding driving during peak hours.  Or, you make the choice personally if it is worth it to drive into town, and live with that.  It is a discouragement for unnecessary car travel, and it works.

 

2 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

the driver get punished..

 

The driver does not pay for the great majority of the externalized costs they push off onto others, things like health effects due to noise and pollution, road maintenance and repair, burdens on the health system through accidents, policing costs...  I don't have a lot of sympathy for that argument, it's a weak one, drivers need to start paying their fair share. Driving a personal car is a choice not a necessity, especially in Stuttgart where there are loads of good other options for getting around.  A personal car is also a tremendously inefficient choice - From energy use to road space consumed to pollution caused to government subsidies, it is at the bottom of the list.  It's even way more expensive to the driver per km than public transit.   

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You should change your user name to KrakPot!

 

Tell me... How are all the small buisnesses supposed to run?  How can I transport my Ladders on a Bus or tram?

 

How can my Plumber friend get that Broken boiler to the recycling  place and get a new one delivered?

The Aircraft... Tell me about that polution!!  

 

I am not sure if cars are to blame for the Emergeny room overload and stress on the hospitals... I am sure its the Vehicle drivers fault... 

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21 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Tell me... How are all the small buisnesses supposed to run?  How can I transport my Ladders on a Bus or tram?

 

Read what I wrote:  Unnecessary car travel.  I don't consider car-commuting necessary where good alternatives are available, that is a personal choice and a luxurious one at that.  I am a small business owner that has to transport ladders, tools, materials to my jobsites, and I would gladly pay a toll to enter the city if it meant that 10% of the car traffic was gone and traffic moved better.  The customer pays my toll, but saves on the Anfahrt Pauschale because it took me less time to get there.  Obviously people aren't going to tranport equipment and materials on the U-Bahn, why would you think I was implying that? 

 

With tolls, everyone decides for themselves if their travel is necessary or not.  In Stockholm, enough people did in fact decide that it isn't necessary and changed their habits to improve the traffic and air quality situation in that city.  It could work in any city.

 

Check out this video from TedTalks, ignore the bowtie if you can:

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonas_eliasson_how_to_solve_traffic_jams

 

 

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4 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

No need to watch videos

 

This means:  no need to learn more, you already know everything.  That's nice for you, congratulations!  Problem with writing: you can't see that this is meant tongue-in-cheek,

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3 hours ago, kapokanadensis said:

 

 

 

With tolls, everyone decides for themselves if their travel is necessary or not.  In Stockholm, enough people did in fact decide that it isn't necessary and changed their habits to improve the traffic and air quality situation in that city.  It could work in any city.

 

 

 

 

 

Hasn't worked in London though, more cars worse air quality!

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18 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Hasn't worked in London though, more cars worse air quality!

 

It has worked in London though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge

 

It has worked in Singapore:

https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltaweb/en/roads-and-motoring/managing-traffic-and-congestion/electronic-road-pricing-erp.html

 

It has worked in Stockholm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_congestion_tax

 

It can work in Stuttgart too.  In most cases, you only need to get 10 percent of the cars off the road in peak hours to dramatically improve congestion.  London being as big and populated and important as it is probably needs more cars off the road to make a sizeable difference.

 

It may seem like it hasn't due to population growth or other measures like traffic calming that make it awkward to drive there. 

 

And air pollution is only partly caused by vehicle traffic.  As @SpiderPig has helpfully noted: 

 

5 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

What about cigarettes?  

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

You should change your user name to KrakPot!

 

Whoever's mobbing loses. If you lack arguments, just shut up. 

 

17 hours ago, rodisi said:

What about the poor buggers in Stuttgart, who have to change their diesels by February? 

 

By April actually, the ban for Stuttgarters starts on the first of April. 

 

As commercial transport is excluded, private individuals will either have to buy or lease another vehicle or, like ten thousands of others, use public transport and car sharing. In Stuttgart you really don't need a car to get from A to B, there are buses, the city train, the S-Bahn (and after the winter you can rent bicycles with and without electric drive and the electric rental mopeds of the Stadtwerke again). 

 

 

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5 hours ago, kapokanadensis said:

 

As for policing the new diesel ban, who the hell knows how that's going to work.  You'd have to pull people over and check their Fahrzeugschein - time consuming. 

 

Nope, this doesn't take much time at the routine checks of the Stuttgart police - but most of the checks are carried out in stationary traffic, by the traffic wardens who check parking violations. Most Euro4 diesel engines can be recognised by the (age of) model(s) even without a vehicle registration document. 

 

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Just now, someonesdaughter said:

 

Nope, this doesn't take much time at the routine checks of the Stuttgart police - but most of the checks are carried out in stationary traffic, by the traffic wardens who check parking violations. Most Euro4 diesel engines can be recognised by the (age of) model(s) even without a vehicle registration document. 

 

 

Well there you go, now I know!

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1 minute ago, kapokanadensis said:

 

Well there you go, now I know!

 

The traffic wardens are already busy handing out cards with clues - both to people from Stuttgart and abroad (because there are no penalties yet). If I pass my car again today, I'll take a picture of one and post it. :) 

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On 1/12/2019, 1:57:52, wien4ever said:

 

If Tesla goes bust tomorrow, who is going to provide you with a replacement battery?

 

If Ford goes bust, I can still buy gasoline.

Sorry, this is the most idiotic comment on the whole thread. If you want a direct comparison, when Tesla goes bankrupt, you recharge your batteries (fuel) from another energy supplier.

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