What's left for me in Germany after Chemnitz incident?

180 posts in this topic

All of us... together... a big deep breath in and big deep breath out.  :) 

Does it work?

...

 

 

Just trying to be goofy! Please don't kick me out of the room yet :) 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2018, 5:51:53, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

... the strange presupposition that an individual Muslim is responsible for some kind of cultural quid pro quo...

On 9/3/2018, 6:32:24, dampstew said:

...a random Pakistani person to be defender of Islam? Do you walk around defending Christianity just because you were born in a majority Christian country?...

 

 I used to think it was kind of absurd to expect random individuals from any metagroup to be expected to dissavow the actions of a few or to have to defend in absentia, as it were, the metagroup, but my thinking is rather changing. Silent majorities everywhere empower the vocal minority.    Look at the grace shown by Mollie Tibbets father in the U.S., he didn't have to speak up and disavow the vocal minority preaching hate in the U.S., but he did.  https://eu.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/columnists/2018/09/01/mollie-tibbetts-father-common-decency-immigration-heartless-despicable-donald-trump-jr-column/1163131002/  I think all of us need to speak up and say "not in my name" when others attempt to do so.  I'll be first to say that Trump and the Evangelical right in the U.S is neither acting for me nor in my best interests.  

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just as a side note, regarding the Magical Bangladeshi, here's a highbrow conservative American Catholic journal lamenting what has become of Ireland:

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/08/the-mystery-parenthesis

 

Pre-Enlightenment Europe as a place where a glorious sacrality emanated from monasteries and cloisters.

Quote

 

You could easily conclude that almost everything has changed, what with the collapse of the Church’s authority and the country's descent into materialism—which culminated in the recent referendum results approving abortion and gay marriage. But, delving into it, I came to the conclusion that all these factors have a common root, which I elaborated using Romano Guardini’s description, in The End of the Modern World, of the religious sensibility of the Middle Ages. Guardini wrote that the Middle Ages were:

Filled with a sense of religion that was as deep as it was rich, as strong as it was delicate, as firm in its grasp of principles as it was original and fertile in their concrete expression. From cloister and monastery there shone a religious light whose strength cannot be overestimated. We cannot exaggerate the impact which was made on the corporate consciousness by the ever-fresh stream of worshippers, penitents and mystics which poured forth from the springs of medieval piety. From all these sources of faith tumbled the waters of religious experience, wisdom and certitude which constantly freshened and quickened every class and degree of society.

Medieval man “thirsted for truth,” which he found by adhering to the authority of Scripture, Church, and inherited wisdom; by meditating on the nature of reality; and by reading the symbolism of the world in terms not just of the appearance of things but also of “their own other side”—understandings that crept into art and the customs and speech of everyday life. 

 

20th century Ireland still had place for a magical reality:

Quote

I recognize something of this in my childhood memories of Ireland in the 1960s and for a time beyond. In an era in which it was not so easy as it is nowadays to hide from the pure nature of reality, each person’s “equation” of reality contained brackets in which a factor allowing for the computation of the unknown or unknowable was implicit and very close to consciousness.  You might call the contents of these brackets something like the “Mystery Parenthesis.”

 

The banishment of magic as a mental prison into which the European has put himself:

Quote

Oddly, it was improving education that further contaminated this consciousness of transcendence. The adapted English education system separated the world into constituent “subjects” and destroyed the totalizing understanding of Christianity by treating Christ as a magical figure in history, who thereby became implausible alongside other historical figures.  There he described the “bunker” that modern man had built for himself to live in. In the bunker, reality was reduced to parts that man had himself constructed, so that man asserted his omnipotence and omniscience in what seemed to be the whole of reality.

 

Coded, highly intellectual references to the breakdown of gender roles (the main bugbear, the article was written after Ireland struck down the anti-abortion constitutional clause).  The Enlightenment banishment of magical consciousness from daily experience directly leads to women (and men) questioning a traditionally-ordered life:

Quote

The pope’s speeches in Ireland might be attributed a single common theme: the evils of materialism. Not just materialism in the sense of obsession with money and consumerism, but also the downstream consequences of such obsessions, when the concepts of materialism infect mankind’s own sense of itself. When this happens it obviously impedes the emergence of a sensibility in which Mystery is self-evident to man, for in ceasing to see the Mystery of himself, man ceases to be capable of grasping any concept of mystery at all. 

It would not be an exaggeration to say that John Paul II’s visit was the last memorable occasion when a form of Catholicism appeared to embrace virtually the entire population of Ireland. Shortly after his departure, the Church fell apart, and Irish society “matured” into new understandings. 

 

The solution is given in a recent, slightly earlier article in the same magazine:

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/06/after-the-irish-debacle

Quote

In December 2011, after meeting in Dublin with legislators of both major political parties, journalists, serious lay Catholics, and the country’s most accomplished theologian, I sent a memo to friends in Rome, arguing that radical measures were needed to turn things around in Irish Catholicism: retiring most of the then-sitting bishops; shrinking the number of Irish dioceses by at least half; and appointing new bishops for Ireland from throughout the Anglosphere—the principal criterion for selection being a man’s demonstrated capacity as an evangelist. Ireland, I wrote, was mission territory. It needed missionary bishops. And if native-born Irishmen could once become bishops in the U.S., why couldn’t American bishops known to be effective evangelists be sent to Ireland today?

 

ie, the solution is to find the charismatic American priests who can restore magic.

 

Of course, my posting this is a little tendentious -- the analogy to the Magical Bangladeshi cited earlier on this thread was too delicious to ignore.  A highbrow American publication demanding exactly the same thing, but with Catholics.  However, there are left-wing takes on exactly the same analysis: that not all the outcomes of banishing magic from the world were positive or for free...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Prince Charles was basically banging the same drum in his book 'Harmony', or at least in the bit I read - and in his case that is not from a specific denominational/faith position, but a rather more general 'spirituality' position. 

 

One of the things I liked about the Waldorf Kindergarten was the insistence on the magical as being critical for children, and quite possibly the rest of us - my A1/2 German was frankly not up to the task of knowing what we were being indoctrinated with at parents evenings but even I could spot a clay dwarf. And make a figure out of Märchenwolle :rolleyes: - very much life's rich tapestry...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Returning said:

 

 I used to think it was kind of absurd to expect random individuals from any metagroup to be expected to dissavow the actions of a few or to have to defend in absentia, as it were, the metagroup, but my thinking is rather changing. Silent majorities everywhere empower the vocal minority.    Look at the grace shown by Mollie Tibbets father in the U.S., he didn't have to speak up and disavow the vocal minority preaching hate in the U.S., but he did.  https://eu.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/columnists/2018/09/01/mollie-tibbetts-father-common-decency-immigration-heartless-despicable-donald-trump-jr-column/1163131002/  I think all of us need to speak up and say "not in my name" when others attempt to do so.  I'll be first to say that Trump and the Evangelical right in the U.S is neither acting for me nor in my best interests.  

 

I agree that this is not so simple an issue such that no member of a "metagroup" should ever publicly disavow a minority of bad actors among them. And I don't think anyone ever said that.  The problem is in the "expecting" -- who is doing the expecting and where and why?  The demands made to disavow Islamic extremism in a context in which the fate of Muslim minorities was effectively being discussed were not innocent, they were intended to inject a presupposition (that Muslims as such are threatening) in the minds of bystanders and derail the discussion (so that it becomes impossible to discuss how to balance human rights with the difficulty in handling large-scale emergency migrations like in 2015).  As for "defending the metagroup in absentia", it once again depends on the context.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, kiplette said:

Prince Charles was basically banging the same drum in his book 'Harmony', or at least in the bit I read - and in his case that is not from a specific denominational/faith position, but a rather more general 'spirituality' position. 

 

One of the things I liked about the Waldorf Kindergarten was the insistence on the magical as being critical for children, and quite possibly the rest of us - my A1/2 German was frankly not up to the task of knowing what we were being indoctrinated with at parents evenings but even I could spot a clay dwarf. And make a figure out of Märchenwolle :rolleyes: - very much life's rich tapestry...

 

Though I know a Waldorf parent or two who has drunk the full anthroposophy Kool-Aid.  Oy. ;)

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You really just need to have a pinch of perspective. I won't labour the points that have already been made, but knife crime, hate crimes and extremism is a thing these days. There were  40,147  knife crime incidents in London alone last year. London is still statistically safer than New York, and although there has been a surge in Germany, firm recent statistics are unavailable,  the German police reported around  4000 knife related crimes in 2016 in the entire country ( https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10488/germany-stabbings), it is still a safe place to live.

 

On 9/2/2018, 5:40:40, Imam Bux said:

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that. 

 

As for the above nonsense, I think you may find that the US incident at the twin towers, the string of continuing Extremest bombing, shooting, vehicle and knife incidents in London and across Europe make a lone stabbing, as tragic as it is, pale in comparison. Equally larger, more tragic events involving mass Genocide have occurred across Former Yugoslavian countries and countries in the middle east regularly within the past 20 years.

 

My point is, there is no need to be a drama queen. Yes, there is a tangible risk that it is possible to be stabbed whilst out and minding your own business these days, regardless of where you live (but particularly in large cities), what background you have or who may commit the crime, (Muslim extremists, White Nationalists, Drug users, Thief's, etc).

 

Be aware of the risk, accept it, try and avoid it and live your life. Alternatively, move to somewhere like the Galapagos Islands.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two weeks after chemintz, I've noticed that my German work collegues have become nicer to me. Especially after that Maaßen incident.

 

It's almost like they are really hurting and trying to let me know that not all of them are assholes.

 

Anybody notice that behaviour among his or her colleagues?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 03/09/2018, 15:56:21, catjones said:

It was used as an example...and you missed it.

 

If you are a wealthy white person, take a walk through Englewood Chicago...you'll quickly discover the "numerical difference".

 

#moronsplaining . and wrong.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/09/2018, 18:11:00, BayrischDude said:

 

Well, Sharia Law does belong to Islam, so I suppose it is more with the religion it self and it's blind and / or extreme followers.  But yes, Zwiebelfisch, if Europe decided to return to the laws or rules they followed 6 or 7 hundred years ago, that too would get me going.

 

It's interesting that you quote Leviticus.  Not long ago, I finally purchased the Torah. I have been wanting to read it for quite some time.  I have read the Bible several times, the Koran twice.  I am quite interested in reading the Torah.  For a non-religious person, I do find these books quite interesting from a historical and sociological perspective.

 

The Viote

In the United States, the term "suffrage" is often associated specifically with women's suffrage; a movement to extend the franchise to women began in the mid-nineteenth century and culminated in the 1920, when the United States ratified the Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, guaranteeing the right of women to vote. In most countries, universal suffrage (the right to vote but not necessarily the right to be a candidate) followed about a generation after universal male suffrage. Notable exceptions in Europe were France, where women could not vote until 1944, Greece (1952), and Switzerland (1971).

 

Death Penatly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#Europe_2

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44954200

 

etc

 

No need to go back 6 or 7 centuries.

 

Also: wrt. the last link we celebrate the execution, dismembering and burning of a religious enemy each and every year. yes celebrate.

 

The Attorney General Sir Edward Coke told the court that each of the condemned would be drawn backwards to his death, by a horse, his head near the ground. They were to be "put to death halfway between heaven and earth as unworthy of both". Their genitals would be cut off and burnt before their eyes, and their bowels and hearts removed. They would then be decapitated, and the dismembered parts of their bodies displayed so that they might become "prey for the fowls of the air"

 

His fellow plotters were then hanged and quartered. Fawkes was the last to stand on the scaffold. He asked for forgiveness of the King and state, while keeping up his "crosses and idle ceremonies" (Catholic practices). Weakened by torture and aided by the hangman, Fawkes began to climb the ladder to the noose, but either through jumping to his death or climbing too high so the rope was incorrectly set, he managed to avoid the agony of the latter part of his execution by breaking his neck.[37][55][56] His lifeless body was nevertheless quartered[57] and, as was the custom,[58] his body parts were then distributed to "the four corners of the kingdom", to be displayed as a warning to other would-be traitors.[59]

 

Cultural myopia writ large.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/09/2018, 12:41:21, MikeMelga said:

And is it ok to paint everybody's culture as equal? Bear in mind that coming from Portugal, where there are almost no muslims, I had no prejudicial view of them. Religion in Portugal is taken very lightly. I came here and while seeing burqas/niqab is still very, very awkward to me, I still did not mind. 

Things changed when I met that guy from Bangladesh. And others like him later. And seeing the security nightmare caused by Merkel's open border policy got on my nerves. Worst, initial German reaction was idiotic, it was some sort of attempt of redemption from WW2. When we needed Germans to act as "Germans", they failed to do it, in a stupid attempt of redemption.

 

I had a similar problem reading online forums but then I met an idiot once and he was a nice guy. I then realised that not all idiots are idiots.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/09/2018, 21:47:52, BayrischDude said:

On the matter of compatibility... a mate from Australia posted a video on FB.  It depicts a 'wedding party' somewhere in the middle east.  One comment got everyone going.

 

' in African culture during our ancestors time, man and women don’t share same room or eat in same plate because of unexpected menstrual period from her which will contaminate her husbands spiritual energy. But Europeans came and destroyed that beautiful culture. Men were highly spiritual back then but nowadays man and woman share same bed even when she is her period and this is why men of today are spiritually weak. European civilization for Africans created a lot of misleading and manipulations.'

 

While the author of that is from Africa, others from Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries chimed in how this is correct thinking.

 

The comments that followed are incredible.  Truly.  Everything from the reason the wedding party only shows men, is that the women are in a separate room - including the bride - to the thought of a women having her period and as she is 'tainted' men should not come near her. 

One woman responded with, 'if a woman's period contaminates your spiritual energy, it must have been really weak to begin with'.  Beautiful response!

 

Yes, western societies believed the same thing for many, many years, centuries ago.  But we progressed.

 

So, again, is this thinking compatible in Europe in 2018 or other non-Muslim dominated societies? 

 

Also, again, I have spent time in these countries.  I did get on very well with the people, so long as we discussed anything other than politics and religion.  Food, culture, sport, art, etc.  They are warm people who are quite giving and very hospitable.  But when it comes to their religious and political ideology, it's too foreign and too rooted in old morals and values to co-exist in 21st Century western societies.

 

Wot?  Miss Teen South Carolina 2007 is that you?

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/09/2018, 09:31:23, MikeMelga said:

That is a bullshit argument. You can always "feel safe" if you restrict your zone or friends.

It is a falacious argument, that it is safe, "except for some isolated parts". Well, if you use the same judgment in really safe countries like Germany, then you could even "feel safer"!

 

Btw, which country are you from?

 

True and then you have to factor in the effects of mental fragility and analysis-obsession ticks.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 03/09/2018, 16:34:50, Returning said:

 

The admins will close posts if they go totally off the rails or if they are spam.  The possibility that someone  could have hurt  feelings from a mostly polite discussion about the interaction between religion and daily life, or about how religion affects cultural expectations,  has never (that I've seen) been sufficient grounds for closing posts.  In life in Germany generally as well, short of a Beleidigung offense that impugns your personal character, hurt feelings aren't really grounds for the stifling of ideas or conversations.  

 

Feel free to criticize or make fun of Jesus if you like, an especially fertile ground for humor or criticism, that is even accepted by 90% of devout Christians, is the pervasiveness of Jesus iconography that shows him with exaggerated European or nordic features.  

 

As to your original question, I'm glad you got feedback you considered relevant.  

 

Your assumption that "a mostly polite discussion about the interaction between religion and daily life, or about how religion affects cultural expectations" ONLY leads to "hurt feelings" is invalid.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 02/09/2018, 21:26:37, swimmer said:

 

I suppose a key thing is that there is historically a very low number of BME people in Germany.  It's only a few hundred thousand.  I know that comes as a surprise to, for instance, some black Britons who come to Berlin.  There's not going to be large number anywhere and maybe perhaps historically the east might have had some of the bigger single populations (hosting e.g. Vietnamese).

 

As to "big cities", big here is what?  Perhaps 500,000?  Not that big really and would include some with quite a "right" presence e.g. Dresden.   I'm not sure it makes that difference.  Somewhere like Frankfurt is no more (or less) welcoming than the rest of Rhein Main (while potentially being more hostile because scale can built marginalised sub-cities).   The usual marker of welcoming outsiders is wealth and the other things correlating with that (such as education, employment levels etc). 

 

Seriously ?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 03/09/2018, 10:28:37, BayrischDude said:

 

I make it a practice to avoid religion and political threads on TT, however... this comment is begging it.
 

 

Where did religion come from?  People!  People created religions.  Regardless of who or what one believes, their 'deity' did not claim, 'start a religion, cult or following'. These people created a book and people followed it. People created it.  Religions are good and bad.  Most of the bad comes down to 'my deity, morals and beliefs are better than yours'.  Rubbish.  

 

 

Rubbish.  Where do you think the idea of the burqa came from?  A little studying will show that the documented start of women wearing the burqa came at the same time as the start of the Muslim religion - 622ce.

 

The biggest issue with Islam is it's failure to progress.  To look at beliefs based on the times when it began - near 1400 years ago - and to not consider change is in it's self a flaw.  Everything changes as people do.  Time changes, morals change, beliefs change.  To hold 1400 years old doctrine as true is a flaw.  Christianity is no different on that issue.  It too has it's flaws, but it does change, albeit slowly. 

 

 

Not following you on this.  Are you saying the world cannot make fun of Jesus or only Muslims cannot?  Christians take no issue to humour involving Jesus.  They do it often.  If you are referring to Muslims not making fun of Jesus, then I would say, 'lighten the fook up!'  Perhaps this is one small area the rest of the world takes issue with Islam.  The inability to laugh, joke and make fun.  If one is so tightly wound on a belief system that they cannot find humour in it's failings, it is a huge fault.  It is a sign that the belief system, in their own mind, is perfect and nothing, I mean nothing is absolutely perfect.  To laugh at it's imperfections is to be human.

 

I love the law.  I stood behind it professionally for over two decades.  But is the law perfect?  Not even close and so I would often laugh and make fun of it, due to it's flaws.  That showed that I am human, but still have respect for it.  I follow no formal religion.  I am simply spiritual.  Whatever the fook that means.  And I obviously make fun of my own belief.  Why?  Because my beliefs are flawed, as am I! 

 

When a westerner goes to a middle eastern country, their laws, which are founded in Islam must be followed.  Women must cover their heads (burqa).  No public displays of affection. Women cannot drive a car.  No alcohol, etc.  To not follow these religious based laws can land a non-muslim in prison. 

In the west, laws are also based upon religion.  Thou shalt not murder, steal or commit adultery.  Adultery was illegal, but has fallen away since... well, you know.  Short of that, religious based laws in the west have disappeared over time.  People have progressed and these laws were viewed as archaic and limited individuality. Islam does not recognise that. 

 

 

Christianity has progressed to the point where "Christian" economic barbarism is known as Capitalism and "Christian" violence is referred to as "helping people".

 

Christianity's greatest advance is its ability to elicit self-delusion.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17.11.2018, 23:41:44, claudeyc said:

 

Seriously ?

Seriously? Why are you spamming the thread? You are making huge quotes and then saying nothing useful.

What is your purpose?

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7.9.2018, 23:30:11, Eupathic Impulse said:

Of course, my posting this is a little tendentious -- the analogy to the Magical Bangladeshi cited earlier on this thread was too delicious to ignore.  A highbrow American publication demanding exactly the same thing, but with Catholics.  However, there are left-wing takes on exactly the same analysis: that not all the outcomes of banishing magic from the world were positive or for free...

When you have a college educated guy saying he would do anything that a radical magical bangladeshi iman would tell him to, you know something is fucked up. It's not about believing or not in magic, it is the whole culture that would push a smart guy into such a radical behavior.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2018, 10:46:26, claudeyc said:

 

Christianity has progressed to the point where "Christian" economic barbarism is known as Capitalism and "Christian" violence is referred to as "helping people".

 

Christianity's greatest advance is its ability to elicit self-delusion.

 

 

As a Wiccan I have no love for Christianity nor for Islam as people like me have been burned and persecuted by both religions. I don't have any problem with Christians or Muslims practicing their religion as long as they don't call me a devil worshiping whore who should be crucified. In that case I will get medieval and hex them. No I'm not joking.

 

Fortunately most mainstream Christians haven't given me any trouble. However I can't say the same thing about Muslims, a few of which have quoted passages from their holy book saying that witches should be burned.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/2/2018, 5:40:40, Imam Bux said:

I am Masters student, living in Hessen, from Pakistan. I came in this country (like others) last year for further studies and for the bright future. I, like any student, had any country to go but because Germany is offering free education and providing the good market for the Software Engineers so, I came here.

 

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that. However, because of the current wave, I don't know if I am walking down the street at random day and some native German considers me one of those people who rapes, kills (because of the stereotypes) and stabs me. I have invested my 1.5 years, paid taxes, contributed in the society and I am willing to do as much as I can for Germany.

 

Now, I am considering to move to US. Is my fear right? Can I visit any city in (East) Germany any time without any fear? Am I, as an international and muslim student, liability on this country? Will I be the victim of political unstability of the country?

 

Hmm hard to compare Germany with Pakistan who has blasphemy laws ;)

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now