What's left for me in Germany after Chemnitz incident?

180 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

The point I think you are making is 100% valid and correct and has nothing to do with people being muslim or otherwise.  It is about installing an alternate legal system that is incompatible with modern German law.

 

Should fundamentalist christians attempt to bring in full on biblical law with death for adultery (Leviticus 20:10) I would be just as much against it as I would be if any other religion tried to get such a system in place.

 

Well, Sharia Law does belong to Islam, so I suppose it is more with the religion it self and it's blind and / or extreme followers.  But yes, Zwiebelfisch, if Europe decided to return to the laws or rules they followed 6 or 7 hundred years ago, that too would get me going.

 

It's interesting that you quote Leviticus.  Not long ago, I finally purchased the Torah. I have been wanting to read it for quite some time.  I have read the Bible several times, the Koran twice.  I am quite interested in reading the Torah.  For a non-religious person, I do find these books quite interesting from a historical and sociological perspective.

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It's amusing how racist are so scared of being identified as racist. If you are going to be racist, at least own it.

 

Here is what you wrote @BayrischDude

Quote

It is the Middle Eastern Muslims we make that statement about - compatibility.

 

Middle Eastern = national origin. Muslim = religion. So you are saying, a person with a particular national origin and a religion is not compatible. That is the very definition of discrimination by social origin and religion. 

 

You assumed OP is "incompatible" because he is from Pakistan and Muslim (Middle Eastern Muslim). OP is probably a fine person. That makes you a bigot and your arguments are that of Nazi.

 

 

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3 hours ago, BayrischDude said:

But when was the last time a Mormon carried out a suicide bombing?  Haven't heard of any Buddhists conduct an honour killing.  Last time I checked, men and women Roman Catholics eat at the same table.  Haven't heard of any American Southern Baptists hijacking a plane.  Have yet to hear of person from the Anglican faith drive a truck into a crowd of holiday shoppers.  And, I have yet to hear of a Jew calling on all Jews to take up arms and rid the world of the infidel. Maybe, it's just me.

 

Well, not a fair question because Mormons' favorite terrorist tactics are not suicide bombs, they prefer old school massive shooting.   BTW, Mormons have as well honor killings, they just call them differently, their name is "Blood Atonement"

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But how frequent are they, Krieg, in modern times? ie compared to suicide bombings?

eg in Indonesia

https://theconversation.com/how-people-become-suicide-bombers-the-six-steps-to-terrorism-96944

By the way, I´ve no time for ideological killings Left or Right in the traditional sense, either.

I chose Indonesia as an example of a country I used to live in where the five official religions were officially at a level pegging ie all accepted but aggressive Islamists are spreading, especially in Aceh, but not only.

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@john g. I’m one of those citizens of nowhere. It’s complicated, but I like how you think all Brits must have learned English from birth. Britain is much more diverse than that.

 

What is harsh is people insulting OP just because he happens to be from Pakistan, being a Muslim etc. At which point did OP say something that suggests he is a fanatic? I know many “Middle Eastern Muslims”. They are great, nice people. If you don’t want to be called a Nazi, maybe you shouldn’t hold the same belief as them.

 

Fact is, if you regard an entire group of people as “fanatics” and “incompatible” just merely because where they were born or what religion they grew up, you are a bigot and you are the kind of people who enabled Nazis. Those who send refugees to their death are the same kind of people who sent back Jewish refugees.

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Fair enough, dampstew! I thought you were a troll and apologies. Your English is fine.

I personally have never insulted the OP because he´s from Pakistan. I I am against fanatics wherever they are from - the young man OP is not my target. I wish him all the best.

 

I am not sending refugees to their death...that´s the job of fanatics, some of whom would be happy to kill anyone who doesn´t hold their faith, whether fellow Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, agnostics. 

This is my standpoint.

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@john g. Well, I completely agree with your standpoint, and believe me, I hate fanatic muslims as much as the next guy.

 

What pisses me off is people like @MikeMelga , @BayrischDude and others making OP feel shitty with their bigotry. Here is a young person minding their own business, and from what I've seen, probably a decent, patient person, and these people jump on him - without any provocation whatsoever - probably because their real life is shitty and they need to hurt someone else to feel better.

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The thread developed and moved on, dampstew! Bayrisch Dude is no way a bigot but a caring person (from personal experience ) and MikeMelga is NOT a bigot either as far as I can tell. He´s just not into religion---whoever´s it is.

And you know what..I´m not a Nazi, either!:lol:

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10 hours ago, john g. said:

But how frequent are they, Krieg, in modern times? ie compared to suicide bombings?

eg in Indonesia

https://theconversation.com/how-people-become-suicide-bombers-the-six-steps-to-terrorism-96944

By the way, I´ve no time for ideological killings Left or Right in the traditional sense, either.

I chose Indonesia as an example of a country I used to live in where the five official religions were officially at a level pegging ie all accepted but aggressive Islamists are spreading, especially in Aceh, but not only.

 

Again, not a fair comparison because Mormons are not at the moment at ideological or political war with anybody.    How those terrorists attacks coming mostly from the Middle East started?  because some westerners went then and messed up with their politics bringing democracy and values they didn't ask for and they even probably despite.    For me the crucial mistake was killing Saddam Hussein, that was what finally unchained chaos in the area.   If they wanted to remove Saddam they should have had a proper plan for the whole region after that, because he might has been the devil incarnated but he was the cork keeping the upside bottle closed.

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@john g. I take it that neither Bayrisch or MikeMelga is a flag waving Nazi. But the thing is, the Nazis weren't successful because there were so many flag waving Nazis. They were successful because they had large part of the population that could be convinced it was ok to paint people with certain national origin and religion with a broad brush. All over the world you learn this in school, how it is human instinct to do this and how you need to be vigilant against this. Plenty of Nazi supporters were nice people. Hell, Hitler was nice to animals, too...

 

It's really unfortunate to see this in Germany out of all places, since they really did a good job educating their population against this.

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21 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Something very ironic about honor killings, at least from the legal point of view, honor killings in most countries where they exist/existed are/were based on a French law, the Code 324 from the Napoleonic Code.

 

Pardon me? Here is a translation of the code 324 to which you refer.

 

324. Murder, committed by the husband, upon his wife, or by the wife, upon her husband, is not excusable, if the life of the husband or wife, who has committed such murder, has not been put in peril, at the very moment when the murder has taken place.

 

How does this condone honour killings?

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3 hours ago, dampstew said:

@john g. I take it that neither Bayrisch or MikeMelga is a flag waving Nazi. But the thing is, the Nazis weren't successful because there were so many flag waving Nazis. 

They were successful because they had large part of the population that could be convinced it was ok to paint people with certain national origin and religion with a broad brush.

 

And is it ok to paint everybody's culture as equal? Bear in mind that coming from Portugal, where there are almost no muslims, I had no prejudicial view of them. Religion in Portugal is taken very lightly. I came here and while seeing burqas/niqab is still very, very awkward to me, I still did not mind. 

Things changed when I met that guy from Bangladesh. And others like him later. And seeing the security nightmare caused by Merkel's open border policy got on my nerves. Worst, initial German reaction was idiotic, it was some sort of attempt of redemption from WW2. When we needed Germans to act as "Germans", they failed to do it, in a stupid attempt of redemption.

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@MikeMelga I think you need to meet some more Middle Eastern Muslims. Fine there are a lot of assholes, but it’s unfair to hate all of them.

 

If we follow your logic, we should deport all males because clearly they are a security threat compared to women. But we don’t do that because a lot of innocent males will be affected. Same thing with Muslims.

 

If somebody is rapist etc. then we should throw him in jail, but we shouldn’t throw all males in jail based on assumption. Same thing.

 

I know many Muslims. I maybe had one or two slightly “weird” ones (e.g. they didn’t want to do some work based on vague moral criteria, which I thought was too much). Otherwise people were really fine. One of my most socially conscious colleague is a Muslim. He is more progressive than average. 

 

For the sake of argument, let’s assume 60% of Muslims are assholes compared to 30% of Christians - we still shouldn’t just screw over the 40% of fine Muslim people.

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1 hour ago, optimista said:

 

Pardon me? Here is a translation of the code 324 to which you refer.

 

324. Murder, committed by the husband, upon his wife, or by the wife, upon her husband, is not excusable, if the life of the husband or wife, who has committed such murder, has not been put in peril, at the very moment when the murder has taken place.

 

How does this condone honour killings?

 

Maybe you should have copy-pasted the whole thing and not only half of it.  It continues like this:

 

Nevertheless, in the case of adultery, provide for by article 336, murder committed upon the wife as well as upon her accomplice, at the moment when the husband shall have caught them in the fact, in the house where the husband and wife dwell, is excusable.

 

Notice that only killing the wife and lover was accepted, a wife killing her husband was not allowed.   The worst part is that such law stayed in France all the way until 1975.

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1 hour ago, dampstew said:

@MikeMelga I think you need to meet some more Middle Eastern Muslims. Fine there are a lot of assholes, but it’s unfair to hate all of them.

The more I meet, the less I like them. It's fine for small talk, but when you start talking about stuff like religion, science, society, etc, then you realize the cultural clash.

I'm sure George Bush is a great guy to drink a beer with, but still he is an asshole.

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On 9/5/2018, 2:24:53, AnswerToLife42 said:

@MikeMelga: All the 9/11 guys had degrees and some even studied in Germany.

There are already a lot of people here, who want to "restore our spirituality" - with knives.

Since we are not allowed to carry weapons in Germany, I keep distance.

 

.. and some of the 9/11 guys lived in my neck of the woods- Harburg?

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On 9/4/2018, 6:56:13, sorcerers_apprentice said:

 

But over the past 2 years on this board, anyone who expressed concern about the safety of themselves and their family due to the lack of common understanding about behavioral norms with some of the recent newcomers to Germany (legal or illegal) has been automatically deemed racist or nativist and "besorgt".   

 

Perhaps summary statistics do not properly address the risk perception of those who feel vulnerable.

 

Nice to see you here, by the way. 

 

 

So, during the refugee crisis I initially, and for some time, tried to engage in good faith with the Besorgtheit, going into great detail even about compromise positions where we could all get something that we want.  Initially, one might have believed that it was the sheer numbers that caused the fear, but it became clear as the pop-islamology kept being dragged out, that it wasn't so.  So, you're right, neither summary statistics nor (for that matter) "real" Islamology properly address the "risk perception of those who feel vulnerable". 

 

But, as time went on, and as you know I spent a couple of years arguing these points in detail, it became clear that there was no possible compromise position. That is, every concession I made to "address the risk perception of those who feel vulnerable", and any piece of evidence, "non-summary" even, that I sometimes painstakingly researched, resulted in the goalposts being shifted even further.  (Whatever it means for a piece of sociological evidence to be "non-summary"...)

 

The refugee crisis has abated, but the goalposts haven't stopped shifting. Not on TT, and not outside of it.  Regardless of what happens in the world.

 

At some point, I at least have to make a choice: is the constant goalpost-shifting simply bad faith, or is it that the "personal risk assessment" is so driven by fear-addiction that it cannot be addressed without giving away the farm?  Maybe it's both.

 

The "personal risk assessment" you mention is not a neutral fact. It comes from a combination of emotional make-up (from upbringing, etc) and ideology, combining with, in my experience, only a little dose of the real world. (That little dose of the real world is construed as the entire real world, of which my "elitist" self is supposed to be ignorant in some way.)  The emotional make-up, I can't do anything about.  The ideology, on the other hand, is never revealed to be a neutral one -- it is, almost always, the same political kernel that eventually sprouts into, well, Something Bad. 

 

Perhaps there is genuinely someone who is afraid without that ideology.  I haven't met them on the internet yet.  If I had, we might have been able to come to a compromise.

 

But, at the very least, I learned something.  Quite a lot, actually, honest.  A lot of analyses that I would never have read if I hadn't felt the need to defend the natural right of movement. So there's that.

 

And yes, nice to see you too, but I don't plan to be around much.

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On 9/5/2018, 5:11:07, BayrischDude said:

 

You decided to compare the two with the term incompatible.  I do understand what you're on about, but to compare our feelings today with the European attitude of Jews back in the 14th or 15th Century, is like apples and oranges. 

 

This is not even slightly true. The assignment of the "considered dirty" parts of finance to Jews was a consequence and not initially a source of the hatred for Jews. The arguments made against Jews in Europe were very similar to Islamophobic argumentation made in Europe today, and in fact belong to a thread of argument that stretches back to the pre-Christian Roman Empire. That original argument was that Jews would not integrate, which in Rome necessarily meant being willing to make sacrifice to the gods of the state.  I mean, to the Romans, it was OK that you worshipped your own god(s) in whatever way you want to worship them except human sacrifice (that was a no-no, but the Jews agreed with the Romans on this).  It was not OK to refuse to eat what the Romans eat and do as the Romans did, which was to perform the civic act of public sacrifice to the Capitoline Triad.  The Jews were given an exceptional license (except when they weren't, or actively tried to throw off the Roman yoke), but Romans never stopped giving them the side-eye for it. 

 

Christianity merely took over the Roman attitude, but raised the stakes monstrously.  The Jews were not merely rejecting public sacrifice to the gods that made them materially secure through the Roman state, they were rejecting The Sacrifice (of Jesus Christ) that ended their religious law.  From then on, the expression by Jews of adherence to halakha (Jewish law that is extremely similar to the thing being called sharia) was an attack on the favour Christ did for them.  That is, being meaningfully Jewish was an attack on the state. Because in Rome, Christian Rome, you're supposed to what the Romans did.

 

In the same way, there is a large contingent in the West that wants people in Rome to do as the Romans did.  In this case, it is the Muslim immigrants accused of not doing as the "Romans" do and therefore endangering the social equilibrium we all experience as the modern state.

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On 9/5/2018, 12:54:35, MikeMelga said:

I heard the same shit from a guy from Bangladesh. He said he was studying european history on his free time and then realized that we lost our spirituality with Enlightnment.

And he said that "they" (muslims) would fix it.

 

He told me that when he was 20 he met a special type of Iman that posesses magical powers. Quoting: "I was drawn to him like a magnet. At that moment I realized I would do anything he would ask me".

He also told me that when he came to Germany there were none of these "magic imans" here. But that they were bringing them here and they would "restore our spirituality".

 

This guy is saying something utterly banal that countless Western philosophers and critics have said and argued many times before, including during the Enlightenment itself, but because he is Bangladeshi and Muslim, he has you spooked by your own prejudices.  People, yes, "Western" people of "post-Christian" background, of various political stripes, quite correctly observe that the Enlightenment "de-magicalized" society and stripped away the metaphysics and teleology that had been associated with common objects, actions, interpersonal relations, so much so that a lot of people find such profound concepts as the transubstantiation of the Eucharist not only false but funny

 

The "special type of Imam" that the dude met is just a highly charismatic individual (charisma is a form of magic) no different from the televangelists who already quite happily exist in the West, and to whom many non-Muslim Westerners turn to re-magicalize their unmagical existences.  Charismatic imams are brought to the West and do get some Western converts, of course, but the underlying phenomenon is by no means foreign.

 

Speaking of transubstantiation, it's amazing how performative anti-spiritualism is transubstantiated by prejudice into a fear we're supposed to take seriously...

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32 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Idiot...

 

Well, that he plainly isn't.

 

You may not agree with anything he says, or understand much of it even, but that doesn't make him an idiot.

 

One of the good things about a forum is being exposed to other views, information you didn't know, unfamiliar thought processes. It is all part of life's rich tapestry. 

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