What's left for me in Germany after Chemnitz incident?

180 posts in this topic

23 hours ago, dampstew said:

 

Tbh I'm surprised that someone could see this thread and conclude the discussion was mostly polite. A young person was worried about an understandable topic, and then you got people telling him:

 

 - WHAT ABOUT PAKISTAN!?!? (why is that even relevant - he never compared Germany vs. Pakistan or suggested Pakistan is better than Germany)

 - DEFEND ISLAM RIGHT NOW! (he said nothing that suggests he disrespects women, hates homosexuals etc. And, why do people expect a random Pakistani person to be defender of Islam? Do you walk around defending Christianity just because you were born in a majority Christian country?)

 - ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH EUROPE! (I have Muslim friends that care deeply about feminism, xenophobia, homophobia. The suggestion that merely practicing Islam makes them incompatible to *their home* is offensive, wrong and reeks of the same smell as antisemitism).

 

In short, assuming someone to be misogynist, homophobic or "incompatible to their second home" just because they happen to be from Pakistan or practice Islam is racist, and I wish I could say these people who says stuff like that are not compatible to Europe.

 

*delurk* TT never changes.  Basically, if you identify on TT as a Muslim, and express any concern about your own rights and safety, or for that matter of other Muslims, there will be an instant chorus of people attempting to "purity test" cultural compatibility, with the strange presupposition that an individual Muslim is responsible for some kind of cultural quid pro quo, a not-so-veiled obsession over takeover, hackish out-of-context Quranology, bad pop-sociological analyses What Is Wrong With Those Muslims etc, etc.

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31 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

ARD poll from June shows that 62% of Germans support stopping refugees at the border. Only 31% state the opposite.

 

Nope. That ARD poll from June shows that 62% of Germans support stopping refugees at the border that are already registered in another EU country.  Why are you concealing that fact? I'd call this a manipulation. 

 

Infratest Dimap poll from June 2018 shows that 58% of the Germans think Germany can cope with the numbers of refugees, only the minority of 38% don't think so.

 

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/421660/umfrage/umfrage-zum-ausmass-der-aufnahme-von-fluechtlingen-in-deutschland/

 

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I don't change into that greasy tone, but

 

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Is it possible that, as usual, the far left creates a speech that this is only a small percentage of "racists" who have this position? Are you a democrat? Can you accept that the majority of Germans are opposed to this?

 

are you a democrat, Mike Melga? Is it possible that the far right, as usual, needs to manipulate statistics by hiding uncomfortable facts?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

*delurk* TT never changes.  Basically, if you identify on TT as a Muslim, and express any concern about your own rights and safety, or for that matter of other Muslims, there will be an instant chorus of people attempting to "purity test" cultural compatibility, with the strange presupposition that an individual Muslim is responsible for some kind of cultural quid pro quo, a not-so-veiled obsession over takeover, hackish out-of-context Quranology, bad pop-sociological analyses What Is Wrong With Those Muslims etc, etc.

 

That is correct and it is shameful that the OP is being asked to explain the actions of his countrymen, government and culture and condemn them (or else).   

 

But over the past 2 years on this board, anyone who expressed concern about the safety of themselves and their family due to the lack of common understanding about behavioral norms with some of the recent newcomers to Germany (legal or illegal) has been automatically deemed racist or nativist and "besorgt".   

 

Perhaps summary statistics do not properly address the risk perception of those who feel vulnerable.

 

Nice to see you here, by the way. 

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@MikeMelga - makes the mistake of confusing the Judeo-Christian and Islamic tradition with Paganism. 

 

While most European countries are nominally Christian, the values may be driven by something much older.    Christmas, May Day, Easter, etc did not come out of the Bible.    You might find that if everyone stopped going to church, their values may not change so dramatically.  

 

Most people who stop attending church don't go out rampaging when they become unrestrained by Church dogma.   On the other hand, there are many people who are agnostic, atheist, and even anti-religious who are still very homophobic.   Their dislike of gays probably does not stem from being saturated with the Old Testament.  

 

The same is true with Muslim areas / countries / regions.   Don't expect the same thing out of Indonesia as Algeria.  

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2 hours ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

 

Nope. That ARD poll from June shows that 62% of Germans support stopping refugees at the border that are already registered in another EU country.  Why are you concealing that fact? I'd call this a manipulation. 

...as per Dublin agreement! Which is what Greece was supposed to do! And this is a no brainer! The only way to arrive here being a refugee is:

a) being registered in another EU country

b ) illegally 

c) refugee deal with some non-EU country

 

Do you think the answer would change much if they defined the way they arrived differently?

 

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Infratest Dimap poll from June 2018 shows that 58% of the Germans think Germany can cope with the numbers of refugees, only the minority of 38% don't think so.

 

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/421660/umfrage/umfrage-zum-ausmass-der-aufnahme-von-fluechtlingen-in-deutschland/

The question posed is if Germany can cope with that number of refugees. Yes, it can cope, there is enough money. Now let's ask the question if Germany want them here! But let's sick with the 38% for the sake of argument. Are you calling 38% of the Germans racists? Are you proud, as you stated, that 38% feel like this?

And this is the point! You and others are portraying this as a "radical" right wing fringe thing, when it is not!

 

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I don't change into that greasy tone, but

 

are you a democrat, Mike Melga? Is it possible that the far right, as usual, needs to manipulate statistics by hiding uncomfortable facts?

Sure it does! Good thing I'm not far right! Stop portraying everyone who doesn't agree with you as far right!

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1 hour ago, sorcerers_apprentice said:

@MikeMelga - makes the mistake of confusing the Judeo-Christian and Islamic tradition with Paganism. 

Where?

1 hour ago, sorcerers_apprentice said:

Most people who stop attending church don't go out rampaging when they become unrestrained by Church dogma.   On the other hand, there are many people who are agnostic, atheist, and even anti-religious who are still very homophobic.   Their dislike of gays probably does not stem from being saturated with the Old Testament.  

Of course! And disliking gays is one thing, persecuting them is another! Can't you tell the difference?

 

Personally, and being agnostic (so it's not a religious thing), I don't especially like gay men, probably because they keep harassing me, especially in Germany...must be the (extremely well trimmed) goatee... :)

But, and here comes the difference, I don't persecute them, I don't judge what they do in the bedroom and I would not vote against their rights!

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9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Do you think the answer would change much if they defined the way they arrived differently?

 

It' not relevant what I think or you think – you rigged a question to fit on your agenda. 

 

9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Yes, it can cope, there is enough money. Now let's ask the question if Germany want them here!

 

Do that. Come back when you got the answer. Stop rigging questions. 

 

9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

And this is the point! You and others are portraying this as a "radical" right wing fringe thing, when it is not!

 

Please quote where I see "this" (whatever "this" is ) "as a "radical" right wing fringe thing". Or stop telling lies about me "and others", it testifies very bad manners. 

 

This is what I call radical right wing (and what you prefer to ignore):

 

https://twitter.com/cschellhorn/status/1034126675280310275/photo/1

 

https://twitter.com/JFDA_eV/status/1034409927857586176

 

9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Sure it does! Good thing I'm not far right! Stop portraying everyone who doesn't agree with you as far right!

 

Stop pretending to be a victim. You're not one. And you are not "everyone" either. 

 

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30 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

It' not relevant what I think or you think – you rigged a question to fit on your agenda. 

No, you got locked in a detail to derail it.

30 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

Do that. Come back when you got the answer. Stop rigging questions. 

And you can start answering my questions: even with 38% of your stats, do you feel proud of it, as you stated? Do you think 38% of Germans are racist?

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

No, you got locked in a detail to derail it.

 

Derail what? Your manipulation? Does it hurt? 

 

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And you can start answering my questions:

 

The way you answer mine? 

 

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even with 38% of your stats, do you feel proud of it, as you stated?

 

Wipe the foam off your mouth. You're confusing me with @dampstew. I suggest you apologize. 

 

The really tragic thing about your performance here is that you don't realize that their ...

 

 

... "Ausländer raus" includes YOU!

 

 

 

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On the matter of compatibility... a mate from Australia posted a video on FB.  It depicts a 'wedding party' somewhere in the middle east.  One comment got everyone going.

 

' in African culture during our ancestors time, man and women don’t share same room or eat in same plate because of unexpected menstrual period from her which will contaminate her husbands spiritual energy. But Europeans came and destroyed that beautiful culture. Men were highly spiritual back then but nowadays man and woman share same bed even when she is her period and this is why men of today are spiritually weak. European civilization for Africans created a lot of misleading and manipulations.'

 

While the author of that is from Africa, others from Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries chimed in how this is correct thinking.

 

The comments that followed are incredible.  Truly.  Everything from the reason the wedding party only shows men, is that the women are in a separate room - including the bride - to the thought of a women having her period and as she is 'tainted' men should not come near her. 

One woman responded with, 'if a woman's period contaminates your spiritual energy, it must have been really weak to begin with'.  Beautiful response!

 

Yes, western societies believed the same thing for many, many years, centuries ago.  But we progressed.

 

So, again, is this thinking compatible in Europe in 2018 or other non-Muslim dominated societies? 

 

Also, again, I have spent time in these countries.  I did get on very well with the people, so long as we discussed anything other than politics and religion.  Food, culture, sport, art, etc.  They are warm people who are quite giving and very hospitable.  But when it comes to their religious and political ideology, it's too foreign and too rooted in old morals and values to co-exist in 21st Century western societies.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Where?

Of course! And disliking gays is one thing, persecuting them is another! Can't you tell the difference?

 

Personally, and being agnostic (so it's not a religious thing), I don't especially like gay men, probably because they keep harassing me, especially in Germany...must be the (extremely well trimmed) goatee... :)

But, and here comes the difference, I don't persecute them, I don't judge what they do in the bedroom and I would not vote against their rights!

What a quote system! Have given up on the regular computer and trying on the SmartPhone thingy?

Lesson one : your good looks are no doubt a factor in gay men being attracted to you??

I remember well being in a clothes shop in Buenos Aires and I was a young lad and the gay shop assistant asked me where I was from! “ Inglaterra”

 

” oh, so you’re gay?”

 

Funny the things you remember?

 

Another thing I´ve just remembered! Far Left here Far Right there..I remember the days of " Far out, man! ":lol:

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Stabbing is everywhere. Sometimes you only fin it in the local press.

(i search for an English version)

http://thegoldwater.com/news/36068-Germany-Flensburg-Court-Doubts-Age-Of-Afghan-Who-Stabbed-German-Teen

" Whilst protests in the German town of Kandel have not yet subsided as demonstrators are angry over the light (8.5 years) sentence a 17-year-old Afghan refugee received for killing a 15-year-old German girl (see our related coverage), the attention today switches to the city of Flensburg where (sigh) a 17-year-old different Afghan refugee, named Ahmed, is on trial for the murder of a 17-year-old German girl, named Mireille. "

Like Mikemelba, I changed my attitude the more I found out about Islam.

I am not a fan of Trump, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrOXvoNLwg

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@BayrischDude. I always like your posts apart from today's.

 

You are quoting ancient african practices. May I remind u that the West (especially the south and north americas) were using 

Africans as slaves less than two centuries ago.

 

The Europeans were gladly selling them to the Americas.

 

MikeMelgas -now poverty stricken country- was one of the main "dealers". Many from his country are actually migrating to their former african colony Angola today. However, in true african culture and hospitality, they are being received with open no strings attached hands. They are not being told to "integrate", and shit like that.

 

And by the way the most migration in the world is within Africa. Uganda took in more refugees than any other country in the world last year.

 

In this beloved adopted country of ours, Jews were being sent to camps less than 80 years ago. Brunets were considered witches and put to the sword a hundreds years back.

 

The past is the past. Leave it buried and forgotten.

 

 Don't quote Ancient african practices, Bayerischdude. The Africans don't quote slave trade and shit like that anymore that was inflicted on them by Europens and Americans.

 

And don't quote ancient African practices that are not practiced anywhere on the continent today apart from very remote isolated areas. Those practices are not in the main stream Africa for the last 100years. The same way we dont qoute the slave trade, the holocaust and things like that.

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Jesus christ, I can't believe my eyes.

 

Which part of Art. 4 GG do these people not understand?

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(1) Die Freiheit des Glaubens, des Gewissens und die Freiheit des religiösen und weltanschaulichen Bekenntnisses sind unverletzlich.

(2) Die ungestörte Religionsausübung wird gewährleistet.

 

Which part of the constitution of Europe do these people not understand?

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Article II-70 Freedom of thought, conscience and religion 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or in private, to manifest religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

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Article II-81

Non-discrimination 1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited. 2. Within the scope of application of the Constitution and without prejudice to any of its specific provisions, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited. Article II-82 Cultural, religious and linguistic diversity The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity

 

Why did these people come to Europe/Germany if *their* belief is directly incompatible with the European/German constitution? If you believe people should be discriminated for their religion or national origin, why not go to a country where this is allowed? Why did *you* come to Europe/Germany?

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7 hours ago, The Vindictive said:

@BayrischDude. I always like your posts apart from today's.

 

You are quoting ancient african practices. May I remind u that the West (especially the south and north americas) were using 

Africans as slaves less than two centuries ago.

 ...

 Don't quote Ancient african practices, Bayerischdude. The Africans don't quote slave trade and shit like that anymore that was inflicted on them by Europens and Americans.

 

 

 

Apart from the inconsistency of the above two lines, does anyone know if there is a Godwin's law equivalent for colonialism and discussions on immigration/integration?

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9 hours ago, The Vindictive said:

@BayrischDude. I always like your posts apart from today's.

 

You are quoting ancient african practices. May I remind u that the West (especially the south and north americas) were using 

Africans as slaves less than two centuries ago.

 

The Europeans were gladly selling them to the Americas.

 

 

@The Vindictive, I believe you missed the point.  Someone uploaded a recent video on FB of an Arab wedding party.  The main point of the video dealt with what billionaires at these parties eat.  Rather than discuss that, people began to comment on other aspects, such as where was the bride?  One user made the comment that I cut-and-pasted here.  Those are neither my words nor something I found that is ancient.  This is from a user born in Africa and now lives in the USA, as I recall.  

Moreover, the point I am making is that this user brought this up and it gained a life of it's own in the comments section, was first, this old belief that women are somehow 'filthy' when they are having their period and it also somehow effects men.  Secondly, that men and women cannot dine together at a wedding.  Most like due to the first reason.  In a group of 200 couples, chances are one woman is having her period, which would destroy the other men's spiritual energy!  

My point in bringing this FB post to TT and this thread is that these two beliefs or practices are not compatible in 21st Century Europe. Europeans thought that way once upon a time, but no longer do, mostly due to education from science and no longer believe the hype professed by various churches, who have also changed their stance and doctrine on that matter.  

And what exactly does that (or this thread for that matter) have to do with slavery, as you mentioned? 

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14 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

ARD poll from June shows that 62% of Germans support stopping refugees at the border. Only 31% state the opposite. Contrary to your narrative, even the far left showed some support for this.

https://www.infratest-dimap.de/umfragen-analysen/bundesweit/ard-deutschlandtrend/2018/juni-extra/

 

hmmm

 

13 hours ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

 

Nope. That ARD poll from June shows that 62% of Germans support stopping refugees at the border that are already registered in another EU country.  Why are you concealing that fact? I'd call this a manipulation. 

 

Infratest Dimap poll from June 2018 shows that 58% of the Germans think Germany can cope with the numbers of refugees, only the minority of 38% don't think so.

 

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/421660/umfrage/umfrage-zum-ausmass-der-aufnahme-von-fluechtlingen-in-deutschland/

 

 

I don't change into that greasy tone, but

 

 

are you a democrat, Mike Melga? Is it possible that the far right, as usual, needs to manipulate statistics by hiding uncomfortable facts?

 

 

 

@MikeMelga was owned really hard by @someonesdaughter.  Solid hard.   Mike manipulated the question of the poll to make it look like something else.    

 

10 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

No, you got locked in a detail to derail it.

And you can start answering my questions: even with 38% of your stats, do you feel proud of it, as you stated? Do you think 38% of Germans are racist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then Mike cries accusations of derailing the thread.   LoL.  This is high comedy here.   

 

13 hours ago, sorcerers_apprentice said:

But over the past 2 years on this board, anyone who expressed concern about the safety of themselves and their family due to the lack of common understanding about behavioral norms with some of the recent newcomers to Germany (legal or illegal) has been automatically deemed racist or nativist and "besorgt".   

 

This is blatant exaggeration.  There was ONE single user who posted about the "besorgt" and he/she is not even posting anymore since long time ago (hi @yourkeau, I hope you are doing well).

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6 hours ago, dampstew said:

Jesus christ, I can't believe my eyes.

 

Which part of Art. 4 GG do these people not understand?

 

Which part of the constitution of Europe do these people not understand?

 

Why did these people come to Europe/Germany if *their* belief is directly incompatible with the European/German constitution? If you believe people should be discriminated for their religion or national origin, why not go to a country where this is allowed? Why did *you* come to Europe/Germany?

 

Where to begin with this?  GG?  Grundgesetz?  This is German law.  Constitution of Europe?  There isn't one, but there is the Treaties of the EU and Part II of said Treaty does discuss discrimination.  But you're on about the German Grundgesetz.  Ok.

 

Which people are you referring to '..do these people not understand'?  TT?  Far right?  Muslims?  Who exactly?

 

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If you believe people should be discriminated for their religion or national origin, why not go to a country where this is allowed?

 

Personally or professionally, I don't believe in any form of discrimination.  However, let me give you an example of why I've written in this thread my view or take on this.

Dampstew, you have a home and family and a good job.  You often invite friends and colleagues to your home for parties or meals.  You are well known as being inviting and a great host.  You are open to who you have in your home.  You never question the beliefs of your friends and colleagues as you find it more enjoyable to simply have them over and enjoy their company.  

Not long ago, a new colleague arrives at work.  He or she appears shy and a bit different, but is friendly.  This person is not from your town, but another.  Being the good person you are, you invite this new person to your home for a Saturday afternoon grill party.  Your thought is this could open him or her up and some of your other mates might also enjoy getting to know this person.  Grand idea.

This person arrives and at the beginning all is nice; he or she seems to be getting on with the others well.  As the afternoon continues, there seems to be some issues.  This new person is complaining and making other people uncomfortable.  Rather than keeping the conversations light, he is complaining about the food, the home decorations, that alcohol is being served, that men, women and children should not be seated together at the same table.  No mention of politics or religion is made.  This is strictly his or her opinion on sundry topics.  He complains about your house pets.  After a short while, comments are made on changes you should make and that you would be better served having a life style similar to what he had back where he lived before.  He then states this to everyone. 

You make a few concessions to appease this new person.  You want to keep the peace as others are getting nervous and uncomfortable.  You find some food that will suit your new colleague.  You ask others to not drink alcohol in his or her presence.  You remove the house pets to a room inside the house.

You have succumbed to this one person's wishes and needs over the others all to keep the peace.  It is your home and you have the right to do so.  But at what cost?

 

Are you enjoying your afternoon?  Are you enjoying your party?  Are your friends enjoying time with you?  This one person has made an enjoyable afternoon with mates rather uncomfortable.

Two things will happen.  One, in the future the mates you've always invited will begin to ask at future parties if 'he or she is coming'.  Second, you have alienated various friends and colleagues due to his actions.  They will simply no longer stop by.

This is an example of what I'm on about.  This is what is occurring in Europe at present.  I give less than a fook what someone's religious beliefs are.  They can worship a cactus for all I care.  They can believe that the Genghis Khan political system is the best.  What-fookin-ever.  But when they want to change our life styles and beliefs to meet their own and find ways to infiltrate our systems to meet these needs, I take a stand to that.  

Do not come into my home and demand that I make changes to meet your needs and I will do the same.  That is not discrimination.  That is respect.

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8 minutes ago, BayrischDude said:

Dampstew, you have a home and family and a good job.  You often invite friends and colleagues to your home for parties or meals.  You are well known as being inviting and a great host.  You are open to who you have in your home.  You never question the beliefs of your friends and colleagues as you find it more enjoyable to simply have them over and enjoy their company.  

Not long ago, a new colleague arrives at work.  ...

 

All cool, you can decide who you invite to your house.   But you can't run a country in the same way you run your house.  As a start, if you are the only one deciding who goes to your party then that will be anti-democratic and maybe fascism, but it is OK with you own private property, but not when talking about who has the right to live in a country.       Pretty weak analogy.

 

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My goodness it's all so complicated.

 

Yes there are people from other cultures who just refuse to adapt to a new one.  Yet there may be (actually are) many people from those same cultures who are not only willing, but enthusiastic about making a change.  Even with a willingness to adapt, do they get it right on the first go?  Often not.  

 

just considering the scope of the adaptation needed on the part of any newcomer, I can first look to my own experience...did *I* get it right on the first goes after moving here?  HELL NO!  and for me it's a wee stretch to adapt.  And my failures are not *so* glaring as they are, in the grand scope, rather small.  And even 7+ years on, making a lot of effort to get it right, I still get it wrong sometimes. Judging by the many "germans are so awful" threads and posts, clearly there are other westerners who also chafe and whinge against the adaptations they need to make, as they don't even want to make small adjustments - imagine that?  westerners who don't want to adapt?  ummm...yeah.  Now expand that in your imagination and think of what a stretch it is for people who come from such different (and yes, I do think "backwards" is often an appropriate term in many cases - I'm not trying to sugarcoat this) cultures to get with the program.   The bigger the gap, the longer it takes, for most ordinary mortals.

 

So ok, for *any* newcomer it takes time to embrace new ways of looking at and doing things, and some never do adapt, or never wanted to in the first place. Does that mean the whole group should be painted with the same brush?  Come on.  This is obvious, isn't it?  Of course not. 

 

So far I do think the German approach has been better than others in recent history...insofar as there is at least some awareness that stuffing groups into their own "ghettos" or quietly allowing them to do so under their own power is not likely to have a good outcome.  The national policies and support for integration are no small thing IMO.  Really.  Are there problems with how this is implemented?  YES there definitely are. But that does not mean it's a bad approach.  Exposure, immersion and *training* in the new culture is the best shot to make it work for everyone, Germans and immigrants alike.  Many people are very capable of shedding their past history, and yes, even culture or upbringing, but you can't accomplish that with a stick.  An invitation to join, and guidance regarding how to do so, are usually far more fruitful.  

 

anyone committing violence or super antisocial behavior, yeah, you need to weed these out with a zero tolerance policy of some kind.  Really.  In addition to being open, the system has to also be willing to be very harsh and able to take swift, decisive action.  This is a very weak point.

 

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