What's left for me in Germany after Chemnitz incident?

180 posts in this topic

21 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

Now, I am considering to move to US. Is my fear right? Can I visit any city in (East) Germany any time without any fear? Am I, as an international and muslim student, liability on this country? Will I be the victim of political unstability of the country?

 

I think the question is reasonable, but seems to me to be based on invalid assumptions.  Many places in the us are far less safe than many places in germany.

If you are worried about living in east germany, why are you talking about the usa instead of west germany?

 

The usa has a murder rate over 5 times higher than germany.  Area and other factors make a huge difference, but looking at the raw numbers, moving to the us to be safe doesnt make much sense. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

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14 hours ago, claudeyc said:

Chris Rock wasn't talking about his safety. He broke it down and you still missed it.

It was used as an example...and you missed it.

 

14 hours ago, claudeyc said:

Not numerical differences.

If you are a wealthy white person, take a walk through Englewood Chicago...you'll quickly discover the "numerical difference".

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2 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

I had a question that is answered in the earlier replies and I am satisfied with the feedback. The later ones are based on the religious debate which I request not to continue. If the Admin wants to close this post because the replies can hurt someone's feelings, so you are more than welcome (as it turns out, I can not delete the post).

 

Thank You all for the time you took to reply on my post.

 

The admins will close posts if they go totally off the rails or if they are spam.  The possibility that someone  could have hurt  feelings from a mostly polite discussion about the interaction between religion and daily life, or about how religion affects cultural expectations,  has never (that I've seen) been sufficient grounds for closing posts.  In life in Germany generally as well, short of a Beleidigung offense that impugns your personal character, hurt feelings aren't really grounds for the stifling of ideas or conversations.  

 

Feel free to criticize or make fun of Jesus if you like, an especially fertile ground for humor or criticism, that is even accepted by 90% of devout Christians, is the pervasiveness of Jesus iconography that shows him with exaggerated European or nordic features.  

 

As to your original question, I'm glad you got feedback you considered relevant.  

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If you are a Muslim (I asume you are), your application to immigrate would take about three years - maybe more - to check (for security reasons). Even if you were let in, there is no guarantee that you would be safe, given the current social and political climate of anti-Muslim feeling. And people in the States would on average be more preared to shoot you.

I cannot judge entirely but you just might be safer in Germany.

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1 hour ago, Returning said:

The possibility that someone  could have hurt  feelings from a mostly polite discussion about the interaction between religion and daily life, or about how religion affects cultural expectations

 

Tbh I'm surprised that someone could see this thread and conclude the discussion was mostly polite. A young person was worried about an understandable topic, and then you got people telling him:

 

 - WHAT ABOUT PAKISTAN!?!? (why is that even relevant - he never compared Germany vs. Pakistan or suggested Pakistan is better than Germany)

 - DEFEND ISLAM RIGHT NOW! (he said nothing that suggests he disrespects women, hates homosexuals etc. And, why do people expect a random Pakistani person to be defender of Islam? Do you walk around defending Christianity just because you were born in a majority Christian country?)

 - ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH EUROPE! (I have Muslim friends that care deeply about feminism, xenophobia, homophobia. The suggestion that merely practicing Islam makes them incompatible to *their home* is offensive, wrong and reeks of the same smell as antisemitism).

 

In short, assuming someone to be misogynist, homophobic or "incompatible to their second home" just because they happen to be from Pakistan or practice Islam is racist, and I wish I could say these people who says stuff like that are not compatible to Europe.

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1 minute ago, dampstew said:

 

Tbh I'm surprised that someone could see this thread and conclude the discussion was mostly polite. A young person was worried about an understandable topic, and then you got people telling him:

 

 - WHAT ABOUT PAKISTAN!?!? (why is that even relevant - he never compared Germany vs. Pakistan or suggested Pakistan is better than Germany)

 - DEFEND ISLAM RIGHT NOW! (he said nothing that suggests he disrespects women, hates homosexuals etc. And, why do people expect a random Pakistani person to be defender of Islam? Do you walk around defending Christianity just because you were born in a majority Christian country?)

 - ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH EUROPE! (I have Muslim friends that care deeply about feminism, xenophobia, homophobia. The suggestion that merely practicing Islam makes them incompatible to *their home* is offensive, wrong and reeks of the same smell as antisemitism).

 

In short, assuming someone to be misogynist, homophobic or "incompatible to their second home" just because they happen to be from Pakistan or practice Islam is racist, and I wish I could say these people who says stuff like that are not compatible to Europe.

 

There are a couple posters in this thread who regularly make fairly incendiary posts, and this thread was no exception, but yes, I think the posts in the thread were mostly polite, even if you don't like what the posters were saying or think the thread went off the wrong direction.  

 

Comparison to Pakistan are fair game I think, because the poster was comparing alternatives, and the unspoken implication in his post was that he was not considering going to back to Pakistan, so to delve into why not is a fair question, I think, even if he didn't bring it up.  It's implicit in his question I think, would America be better than Germany (unspoken implication, and better and going back home to Pakistan), or would Germany be better (unspoken implication, better than going back home to Pakistan).  It is a simple fact that as a male practicing Muslim Pakistani, in Pakistan he would be generally (barring ethnic and regional sectarianism), be in the dominant power group in Pakistan and thus relatively protected.  I think it is fair in that context to wonder, if he hopes for protection of obvious minority rights in Germany or the U.S., what his opinions are as to the protection of minority rights in his home country, or lack thereof.  He is apparently, like many of us, in the group of educated moneyed  people who have the privilege of (relatively speaking), easier international migration, ie, the privilege to call oneself an 'expat' instead of a 'migrant'.  IMO, that also confers responsibility, it's pretty cheap to expect to be able to just pick and choose a 'perfect' country and take advantage of all the work other people have gone to make it so perfect.  So, to some extent, I think it's also fair to ask him what he is willing to do, in his day to day interactions, to build community between his group (minority in Germany, majority in Pakistan), and the other communities where he lives.  Go ahead and ask me the same questions.  

 

As above, the incendiary comments are mostly limited to a few posters, and don't constitute the majority of the thread.

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10 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

This is why I was afraid to post my concern here. Did I in any way compared religion? Every religion is good, it's we people have made it worse. But as you have raised your concerns, I will try my best to reply them (based on my understanding).

 

1) Women are equal, actually they are above in terms of respect. If you see them in burqa, that is the tradition and culture of that area, has nothing to do with religion. But sadly, Islam is the most misunderstood and also wrongly practiced.

 

2) I think it is same for the men but some does it whenever they find the right person, irrespective of the religion. Why marriage means leaving a religion (does not make sense)!

 

3) Well, there are you! There has been billions of the people but somehow Muhammad seems to be fun for everyone. Well, you always have edge on that one because we can never make fun of Jesus and Moses because they are crucial part of our belief and if we make fun of any religion, we are not Muslims then.

 

4) I am not able to answer this question. Sorry.

 

5) You are right, Islam never accepts this.

 

What religion has to do with a country. I believe you should be a nice person, respect everyone, give your best and that's it. More than 34% Germans are of irreligion.

 

I never compared Pakistan with Germany. There is no comparison. Germany is the great nation in every possible way. We are terrible down there in Pakistan. She will be gazed by the people in the streets but just you know my friend she will never be raped. I don't know about the other countries.

 

Thank You! You are right. I won't.

 

I am sorry as it seems I am one of them. I won't post such stuff again. Thank You for the comment.

 

Point noted! :) Thanks for the feedback.

I wish you well, my young friend. I hope nothing happens to you ever - and it should never happen to anyone anywhere eg attacked, raped etc.

You are young and thus naive - but that is normal and not a criticism of you.

Please allow me, though, to comment on your remark that a woman will never be raped in Pakistan. Women are raped everywhere in the world.

From a Pakistani newspaper:

 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1232426/pakistan-among-10-worst-countries-regarding-rape-cases-pti

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2 hours ago, dampstew said:

 

Tbh I'm surprised that someone could see this thread and conclude the discussion was mostly polite. A young person was worried about an understandable topic, and then you got people telling him:

Telling, not "yelling" like you imply. Where were the caps?

 

2 hours ago, dampstew said:

 

 - WHAT ABOUT PAKISTAN!?!? (why is that even relevant - he never compared Germany vs. Pakistan or suggested Pakistan is better than Germany)

Why caps? What is wrong with the question? He said he did not feel safe in one of the world's safest countries. Smell the hypocrisy. 

 

2 hours ago, dampstew said:

 - DEFEND ISLAM RIGHT NOW! (he said nothing that suggests he disrespects women, hates homosexuals etc. And, why do people expect a random Pakistani person to be defender of Islam? Do you walk around defending Christianity just because you were born in a majority Christian country?)

Why caps again? 97% of Pakistanis are Muslim. Safe to assume he is one.

 

2 hours ago, dampstew said:

 - ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH EUROPE! (I have Muslim friends that care deeply about feminism, xenophobia, homophobia. The suggestion that merely practicing Islam makes them incompatible to *their home* is offensive, wrong and reeks of the same smell as antisemitism).

He implied he pays his taxes and that is enough. No, it is not enough. It was very clear from his answers that he and the vast majority of muslims are incompatible with Europe. This is a 300 years setback and you are helping it.

Congrats on your friends, the 0.0001% of muslims that does not condemn homosexuality.

 

2 hours ago, dampstew said:

 

In short, assuming someone to be misogynist, homophobic or "incompatible to their second home" just because they happen to be from Pakistan or practice Islam is racist, and I wish I could say these people who says stuff like that are not compatible to Europe.

1) I think you mean xenophobe, google for the difference

2) making others sound lunatics in caps is a poor way to make your point.

3) I never had anything against muslims until I came to Germany and had to deal with them everyday. And I'm not talking about ignorant muslims, I'm talking about engineers who, while sounding like nice people, hold strong believes and try to impose on us their crazy ideas everyday. What do you think it will happen when they reach a position of relevance in politics? What do you think about the spread usage of sharia courts in Italy, England and other countries?

 

A few years ago I thought Islam could be compatible with Europe. I had a few bad experiences with muslims, but thought I just found some assholes. Then I read more and more writings (not from far right sites!) of the Quran (straight to the source!) and about a year ago I reached a conclusion: if someone follows closely (not even literaly) the quran, his beliefs are incompatible with ours.

 

Bear in mind: I am not religious, but this war between religions is threatening our secular rules and today, in this forum, I can say this, but in a few decades I might not be allowed to.

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3 hours ago, dampstew said:

 - ISLAM IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH EUROPE! (I have Muslim friends that care deeply about feminism, xenophobia, homophobia. The suggestion that merely practicing Islam makes them incompatible to *their home* is offensive, wrong and reeks of the same smell as antisemitism).

 

In short, assuming someone to be misogynist, homophobic or "incompatible to their second home" just because they happen to be from Pakistan or practice Islam is racist, and I wish I could say these people who says stuff like that are not compatible to Europe.

 

This term has really gained some new speed of late, but is often used incorrectly.  Odd that.  So...

 

Definition of racism (Merriam-Webster)

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
    b : a political or social system founded on racism
3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

 

So, it is based upon race.  Not nationality or religion.  Race.  There are four or five accepted races (albeit there are others). 

  • Caucasoid (White) race.
  • Negroid (Black) race.
  • Capoid (Bushmen/Hottentots) race.
  • Mongoloid (Oriental/ Amerindian) race.
  • Australoid (Australian Aborigine and Papuan) race.

Some are adamant that Jews are a race.  The list above is recognised by universities and sociologists.  Again, Pakistan or Islam is not a race, so someone making a remark against either is not a racists.  The word you are looking for is a Xenophobe for discrimination against a people from another country.

 

A bigot is someone who is intolerant of people of other beliefs (religious).

 

This is where we are today, in 2018.  YouTube and the main stream media have made people stupid.  They hear one argument that sounds great, do no research and repeat it. 

Is Islam incompatible with Europe?  Is Kosovo part of Europe?  Well, it is a disputed territory, but I would say yes.  It's not Middle East and not in Asia.  It is part of the Balkans or Eastern Europe.  95% of the people in Kosovo are Muslim.  There is one who lives about a ten minute walk away from me.  He used to play professional football in Kosovo, or whatever professional football would be in a war torn, unrecognised country.  He is Muslim and a great guy.  He is European.  He told me stories about happenings in Kosovo after the Milosevic era in 1992.  The Saudis arrived in this war torn area and their priority was to build Mosques.  The people in Kosovo said they needed hospitals and schools.  The Saudis said, 'its our money and you need Mosques'.  Debatable who is correct.  Regardless, they are European Muslims.

It is the Middle Eastern Muslims we make that statement about - compatibility.  Look at what is happening in Belgium.  They now have the Islam party.  These are not Kosovo Muslims or Muslims from the Balkans.  These are middle eastern people who follow Sharia Law!  They are attempting to force this religious-law in Belgium.  This is quite dangerous and fookin scary. 

The beliefs they hold are not compatible with Europe.  So, I say no.  Islam is not, but not 100% incompatible.  The people of the Islam Party in Belgium are not radicals.  These are not radical terrorists.  They simply hold true their religious beliefs and wish to impose them on Europe.  Sorry, but I will not stone or behead my daughter because she had sex with a man not her husband.  I do not feel that men and women cannot ride a bus together.  Are you fookin kidding me?  I do not believe in honour killings!  This is Sharia Law and it is not compatible to Europe. 

 

There are, however, progressive Muslims.  I'd assume they do not pray twice a day.  Do not attend Mosque and have not been to Mecca.  I truly have no issue with them.  But we need not worry about these progressive Muslims.  It is the ones who wish to change Europe.  No other group of people have entered the countries of Europe with the expection of changing us (well, perhaps since the demise of the Romans and Visigoths - and I'm not meaning the kids who wear all black!).  Asians, Africans, Indians, Americans, Russians, Ukrainians, Australians, South Americans, etc., all come here and bring their beliefs and morals with them.  It is only the Muslims of the middle east who wish to change our values to theirs.  They come here (not all, of course) and do not integrate well.  They want Europe to be more like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, only more financially stable and with Mosques.  Those are, of course, more important than hospitals and schools.

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@Returning I agree not all posters were rude but boy some of them are just terrible.

 

@MikeMelga I honestly don't know where to start. But let's take this

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I read more and more writings [...] of the Quran (straight to the source!) [...] if someone follows closely (not even literaly) the quran, his beliefs are incompatible with ours

 Like... have you ever read the bible? Do you think it's better than the Quran?

 

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the 0.0001% of muslims that does not condemn homosexuality

 

Yeah sure... US Muslims 'now more accepting of homosexuality than white evangelical Protestants', research finds. 28% of young muslim think same sex marriage should be legalHave you heard of Sadiq Kahn? Do you know what his policies are?

 

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Bear in mind: I am not religious, but this war between religions is threatening our secular rules and today, in this forum, I can say this, but in a few decades I might not be allowed to.

 

 

Let's see who is threatening "our" secular rules in Europe and USA. Any muslims threatening secular rules in Italy, UK, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Russia, USA? Nope, just Christians!

 

About half of White Men in USA "approve" someone who thinks women are trash, tortures innocent children, destroy law abiding families and not. Yet we wouldn't suggest white American men are "incompatible with Europe". Truth be told they are probably very compatible with rural Europe.
 

 

 
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@BayrischDude Tbh if you need to spend half a page making a technical argument why your argument could be "xenophobic" rather than "racist", I don't think you are in a good place...

 

"Sharia Law", "main stream media", "Mosques!"? Yawn you are reading too much Daily Mail, Fox News and RT.

 

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There are, however, progressive Muslims.  I'd assume they do not pray twice a day.  Do not attend Mosque and have not been to Mecca.  I truly have no issue with them.

 

This made my brain hurt.

 

Do you know 40% of Americans believe in creationism? 28% that god talks to them? 80% of white evangelical men support Trump?

 

I'll believe you when you say you aren't racist, when you criticise those with white skin color based on the same standard. 

 

 

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@Imam Bux

 

Forget the ad hominem attacks you've received today. People are making it look like its Ok to be stabbed by some extreme Nazi because you could as well get killed by some suicide bomber in Pakistan.

 

Forget it. Many people don't have an idea what it means to walk around in a black or brown skin and what we go through. They never will. (And we are actually proud to walk around in a black or brown skin. Forget Chris Rocks comedy. We would never exchange the black or brown skin for a white skin). 

 

That said u could try to transfer your credits and continue your studies in the south of Germany. If it fails hang in there, finish your studies and look for a Job in the south. The tone in the south has also changed quite a lot since the 1m immigrants came in 2015. It's not as friendly as it was back then. However, the south has not yet reached a point where demonstrators wave Nazi salutes.

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16 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

The usa has a murder rate over 5 times higher than germany.  Area and other factors make a huge difference, but looking at the raw numbers, moving to the us to be safe doesnt make much sense. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

 

Those murder rate statistics by itself are meaningless because they are normally linked to risk groups and that information is never provided, and in most cases it is not even possible to gather it.

 

For example, my country has a very high rate of criminality, including high murder rate.   However I feel quite safe there because I don't belong to any of the risk groups.    Yes, shit can happen, but shit happens everywhere, as long as I do not put myself as a target I will be in general OK.

 

10 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Congrats on your friends, the 0.0001% of muslims that does not condemn homosexuality.

 

 

Since you pulled that number out of you ass, maybe it would be fair if you pulled as well the statistics about Christian and Jewish acceptance of homosexuality.  Specially in some of those extreme religions that are popular in the USA.

 

Just last week didn't The Pope say if your kid was showing indications of homosexuality you have to take him to the psychiatrist? 

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9 hours ago, The Vindictive said:

@Imam Bux

 

Forget the ad hominem attacks you've received today. People are making it look like its Ok to be stabbed by some extreme Nazi because you could as well get killed by some suicide bomber in Pakistan.

 

Forget it. Many people don't have an idea what it means to walk around in a black or brown skin and what we go through. They never will. (And we are actually proud to walk around in a black or brown skin. Forget Chris Rocks comedy. We would never exchange the black or brown skin for a white skin). 

 

That said u could try to transfer your credits and continue your studies in the south of Germany. If it fails hang in there, finish your studies and look for a Job in the south. The tone in the south has also changed quite a lot since the 1m immigrants came in 2015. It's not as friendly as it was back then. However, the south has not yet reached a point where demonstrators wave Nazi salutes.

 

It is also not ok to be stabbed and killed by an Arab if you are German. Did you read the crime statistics? More Germans are killed by foreigners than foreigners are killed by Germans. And now have a look at the total numbers of Germans and foreigners and maybe you will start to wonder who is the one with a knife in their hand. And what about those "brown" men that hunted down Western women in Cologne and drove their fingers into their vaginas? Don't you thing that this public hunting and attacking of women is as least as bad than Chemitz? What is your advice to Western women? Are they still safe in Germany with more and more brown men immigrating? 

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13 hours ago, Returning said:

 

There are a couple posters in this thread who regularly make fairly incendiary posts, and this thread was no exception, but yes, I think the posts in the thread were mostly polite, even if you don't like what the posters were saying or think the thread went off the wrong direction.  

 

oh my god, tell me where are those "incendiary posts" ! lol

 

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9 hours ago, The Vindictive said:

@Imam Bux

 

Forget the ad hominem attacks you've received today. People are making it look like its Ok to be stabbed by some extreme Nazi because you could as well get killed by some suicide bomber in Pakistan.

 

who said it is ok to be stabbed ? please use quotes. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, dampstew said:

@BayrischDude Tbh if you need to spend half a page making a technical argument why your argument could be "xenophobic" rather than "racist", I don't think you are in a good place...

 

 

 

I did type that slowly in hopes you would comprehend it.  Obviously not.  If you chose to label someone, ensure you understand the term.  To use a word incorrectly has little to no impact other than depicting your lack of knowledge.

 

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"Sharia Law", "main stream media", "Mosques!"? Yawn you are reading too much Daily Mail, Fox News and RT.
 

 

I watch and read none of those and do not know what RT is.  Main stream media, regardless of who it is, is biased to either the right or left. I prefer to do my own research.  Moreover, having lived in South Korea, Japan, Mexico, Kosovo, Saudi Arabia, the US and the UK and having spent extended stays in Iraq, Afghanistan, India and Vietnam, I have an understanding of these cultures beyond what the masses see and read in newspapers and telly. 

 

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Do you know 40% of Americans believe in creationism? 28% that god talks to them? 80% of white evangelical men support Trump?

 

 

Interesting remark.  So, how many of these American creationism believers or these people who talk to god are tossing homosexuals off roof tops?  How many engage in honour killings?  How many commit suicide bombings?  Do they view women as second class citizens?  Are they marrying off their daughters at the age of 12? 

 

And what does white, evangelical men supporting Trump have to do with your argument? 

 

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I'll believe you when you say you aren't racist, when you criticise those with white skin color based on the same standard. 

 

I made no claim to not be racist.  But, as you decided to 'poke the bear',  and you assumed I'm white.  I'm actually mixed.  My mother was Mexican and my father was Scottish.  What does that make me?  Yes, I tick any block marked 'Caucasian'.  But I have lived in societies where I was the minority.  Living in Mexico as a child with blond hair made me an oddity and the other kids teased me. 

But this is not the point of all this.  We are discussing religious beliefs, can Islam come to Europe and co-exist and yet you are still on about racism.  I wonder why that is.  You don't seem to grasp the difference between racism and xenophobia. Religiously, I follow no organised church.  I am an outsider to all religions and have an appreciation for them all, to a degree as I stated much earlier in this thread.  Some mix well in societies and cultures and other's don't.  Islam does not play well with others, except in India.  In India, as I experienced for over a year, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc., all got on well with each other.  They left each other alone for the most part and respect each other's belief system. 

 

I'll repeat this again: middle eastern Muslims are the extreme.  The radicals and their current goal is to turn Europe towards Islam and install Sharia Law.  They don't want to co-exist.  If they did, I would take no issue.  But that is not their goal.  Their Xenophobia and hatred of white Europeans should cause more concern than the 80% of white evangelical men who support Trump.

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18 minutes ago, Namu said:

It is also not ok to be stabbed and killed by an Arab if you are German. Did you read the crime statistics? More Germans are killed by foreigners than foreigners are killed by Germans. And now have a look at the total numbers of Germans and foreigners and maybe you will start to wonder who is the one with a knife in their hand. And what about those "brown" men that hunted down Western women in Cologne and drove their fingers into their vaginas? Don't you thing that this public hunting and attacking of women is as least as bad than Chemitz? What is your advice to Western women? Are they still safe in Germany with more and more brown men immigrating? 

exactly 

 

its the first time that something like in Chemintz happened (as far as i know) and it got more focus that all the other stabbing victims combined. 

some of the other victims (European) dont even appear in the news anymore!

 or they just some local paper. (i see it sometimes). and it still continues to happen almost every week or biweekly. (and rapes and violence)

look at this, is it to work in a train nowdays in Germany? you can be chocked to death! https://www.focus.de/regional/muenchen/muenchen-ice-zugbegleiterin-will-helfen-und-wird-mehrfach-gewuergt_id_9463001.html

 

 

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6 minutes ago, BayrischDude said:

But I have lived in societies where I was the minority.  Living in Mexico as a child with blond hair made me an oddity and the other kids teased me. 
 

 

You had me until this bit.   40 something percent of Mexican population is white and 18% is blond.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

Since you pulled that number out of you ass, maybe it would be fair if you pulled as well the statistics about Christian and Jewish acceptance of homosexuality.  Specially in some of those extreme religions that are popular in the USA.

Let's be pragmatic. Which western country has death penalty for homosexuality?

 

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