What's left for me in Germany after Chemnitz incident?

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I am Masters student, living in Hessen, from Pakistan. I came in this country (like others) last year for further studies and for the bright future. I, like any student, had any country to go but because Germany is offering free education and providing the good market for the Software Engineers so, I came here.

 

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that. However, because of the current wave, I don't know if I am walking down the street at random day and some native German considers me one of those people who rapes, kills (because of the stereotypes) and stabs me. I have invested my 1.5 years, paid taxes, contributed in the society and I am willing to do as much as I can for Germany.

 

Now, I am considering to move to US. Is my fear right? Can I visit any city in (East) Germany any time without any fear? Am I, as an international and muslim student, liability on this country? Will I be the victim of political unstability of the country?

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How politically stable is Pakistan?  (I believe it's not, greatly)   From my perspective, my home country (UK) has been a bit unstable recently, though not as much as when I was a kid and people routinely got killed by terrorists.  Everything is relative.    Change is an inherent risk of migration.  

 

And how politically stable and welcome is the US to muslims right now?   Hasn't it just "banned" certain groups of muslims?   I'd not consider moving there, and I'd have it easier than you.  The best place for you would probably be one of the liberal western cities here.

 

They key thing would not to obsess about what you don't have to do.   There's plenty of places on earth I'd not want to live in as a woman (and a white western one), probably including Pakistan.  So I don't live in them.  I don't waste my life thinking "Hmmm, what would it be like for me if I lived in (potentially awful place for a woman), what might they think of me"?   If I worried about how most of the world  treats women and what many people think of women, I'd never get out of bed, and that's as a privileged white woman.     And I am the sort of person you find in the safer, more tolerant settings.   Tolerant, welcoming, supportive - but not big on traits like self-pity.

 

It's also not "people" being violent in Chemnitz, is it?  You need to look more closely at the gender of those violent criminals.   That sort of evasion often loses men what support they might get in the more tolerant settings.   Think carefully about who might support you.  It is quite difficult to expect for support in the face of male violence from the sort of people who might care as long as you persist in trying to denying it's men who do it.   It sends out offputting signals in the sort of more liberal locations that you would be safe.   (I am a part-time lecturer in such a safe place, and if any student was to make such a basic mistake as to refer to "people" doing this, I would correct them instantly about it being men, and also wonder about their basic analytical skills).

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Given the fact that the current administration in the United States has made no secret of it's mistrust and dislike of immigrants, especially Muslim immigrants, I don't think the United States would be a good alternative. Not all Americans share this attitude, of course, but there is some popular support, whipped up by the Tea Party Republicans, for this nativist mindset. And guns, including assault weapons, are readily available there. A lot depends on where you move to in the US, but even in cosmopolitan centers such as New York there could be problems ( https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/after-tuesdays-attack-in-lower-manhattan-fear-in-little-pakistan ). You are probably safer in Germany. I think the chances of your being randomly stabbed here are very, very slim, especially if you stick to the more liberal cities in the west, as suggested by Swimmer.

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34 minutes ago, Imam Bux said:

Now, I am considering to move to US. Is my fear right?

 

Please, for your own sake, go out somewhere nice that you feel comfortable with and relax a bit.

 

35 minutes ago, Imam Bux said:

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that.

 

While you're out, try to have a chat with someone from Aleppo / Homs / most of Yemen and get their thoughts on what might be worse.

 

You do understand that right about now, the US and Pakistan aren't exactly on speaking terms with regards to aid or visas and the education is expensive as well as the health insurance, right?

 

I would hazard to say that you're far safer in Germany than the US as an international Muslim student but that's just a feeling based on years of living in large and small cities in the US and not on any current statistics on Islamophobia in the recent Trump era.

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I have non-white friends who left the east (part of the old socialist friend era diaspora) and I am glad they no longer live there, particularly the kids.  Not like I think they'd be at great risk but they are in a generally more enlightened place here.   I think they are generally better off in a more liberal, and richer, western setting.   Just generally it is easier for them.   No point in them living in a place that has not been through the process of assimilating migrants as much of the west did.  

 

Edit - Also worth noting that a lot of us are out on the streets holding substantial and unified anti-racist protests, such as in my locale when an AfD leader was here last week, but that just never makes the national news like a group of haters does.   There are clearly issues in (at least bits of) Saxony for a number of reasons but one needs to maintain proportion.

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1 hour ago, Imam Bux said:

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that.

 

You're right, it's terrible when someone is stabbed to death for no obvious reason.

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  • Guess bigger cities in Germany are quite safe for non-white people. There are areas in Berlin where white people might feel unsafe - so its a matter of perspective
  • There is some form of racism everywhere in the world - there is good stuff and bad stuff everywhere in the world
  • Some of my western friends say that Dubai is specially safe for their teenage girls  - doesn't mean that all of them will move to Dubai. There are many factors which play a role - family situation, income source, skill-level etc.

See the world with green glasses - everything will start appearing green man.

Don't want to sound preachy - I have learnt this the hard way. ;)

 

 

 

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There is always an obvious reason,  Auswanderer. ( I sense your irony there, though! ).

No one in their innocence walking in a street should be stabbed/hassled whether German, Pakistani, Muslim, non-Muslim. I hope the OP will stay safe.

And I hope the modern " Left " will stop seeing racism as purely a phenomenon of white Westerners - it is such nonsense. Crappy secretarian  racist violence is everywhere in the world.

 

How about Egypt?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/10/christians-egypt-unprecedented-persecution-report

 

Or Pakistan?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/killed-attack-christians-pakistan-quetta-180402161157315.html

 

NO to ALL shitty behaviour!

And don´t get me started on Jakarta!!:angry:

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17 minutes ago, kapil354 said:
  • Guess bigger cities in Germany are quite safe for non-white people.

 

I suppose a key thing is that there is historically a very low number of BME people in Germany.  It's only a few hundred thousand.  I know that comes as a surprise to, for instance, some black Britons who come to Berlin.  There's not going to be large number anywhere and maybe perhaps historically the east might have had some of the bigger single populations (hosting e.g. Vietnamese).

 

As to "big cities", big here is what?  Perhaps 500,000?  Not that big really and would include some with quite a "right" presence e.g. Dresden.   I'm not sure it makes that difference.  Somewhere like Frankfurt is no more (or less) welcoming than the rest of Rhein Main (while potentially being more hostile because scale can built marginalised sub-cities).   The usual marker of welcoming outsiders is wealth and the other things correlating with that (such as education, employment levels etc). 

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If you think of yourself as a possible target/victim than you probably will be one. If you're positive about yourself and intergrate, chat to the locals, in their language, possibly making lots of mistakes you will be on the whole accepted and respected for making an effort. Racism and racial attacks are not always White on Black or Asian. They are often the other way round. There are some parts of Wales were being English is uncomfortable, There are parts of Northern Ireland where being English used to get you knee-capped. Ther are areas in Berlin, London, Paris and Brussels where being white means you could get the shit kicked out of you. So don't worry about ifs and buts, just get on with it. If you did move elsewhere, chances are you will have the same issues, if you are such a delicate flower than the best option for you maybe to move back home.

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4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

I am Masters student, living in Hessen, from Pakistan. I came in this country (like others) last year for further studies and for the bright future. I, like any student, had any country to go but because Germany is offering free education and providing the good market for the Software Engineers so, I came here.

 

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that. However, because of the current wave, I don't know if I am walking down the street at random day and some native German considers me one of those people who rapes, kills (because of the stereotypes) and stabs me. I have invested my 1.5 years, paid taxes, contributed in the society and I am willing to do as much as I can for Germany.

 

Now, I am considering to move to US. Is my fear right? Can I visit any city in (East) Germany any time without any fear? Am I, as an international and muslim student, liability on this country? Will I be the victim of political unstability of the country?

 

well, i guess the chance of you being stabbed or me is the same!

as before people being stabbed were "white" people. 

should i run away from Europe? tell me? is my fear right?pleeeeasse tell me !

 

 

4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

 Can I visit any city in (East) Germany any time without any fear? 

 

 can i visit your country without any fear? dont compare germany to Pakistan...we are not at that point...YET! 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

Will I be the victim of political unstability of the country?

because Pakistan is comparison with Germany, is very political and social stable, right? 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that.

 

illogical violence and the killing of innocents is always bad. i dont agree that any people try to kill other people just because tehy are different.

So you must also consider that all the stabbings, rapes, deaths, bombs, axe attacks, car run overs, etc, that happen actually about once per week are also bad, or not?

So what should we do about this? answer me that? should we all run away from Europe?

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

Now, I am considering to move to US. 

do you know who Trump is?

 

 

4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

, I don't know if I am walking down the street at random day and some native German considers me one of those people who rapes, kills (because of the stereotypes) and stabs me.

 

I have been already walking down the street and some Arabic people in Germany threaten me with a knife.  So in the "game of live" i am one point above  above you (or below depending of the perspective).

 

those Germans you refer were from far right extremists groups.

as a smart person you should not stereotype, as you ask not to be stereotyped yourself. 

 

 

To be honest it seems you are joking around! 

 

i know people from Pakistan and they are not frighten, just very happy to be here. 

i would be more scared of the university exams or finding your first job! 

 

 

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Two children killed near where I live a couple days ago.   The self-styled "lowest crime rate in Hesse".    The parents have been arrested.   (Yet not many people seem worried about being pointed out as a "household member", even though that's where "people" do most of their violence, and it also received vastly less media coverage that at least one other killing of a child in Hesse did recently).
'

You should definitely not move to the "safest place in Hesse", despite it being one of the world's engineering and academic powerhouses.  You'd find the killing too traumatic here as well.    Not sure where this place is where "the worst thing ever" never happens sadly.   You can never eliminate that aspect of human nature.

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4 hours ago, Imam Bux said:

The recent incident in Chemnitz is indeed the worst thing to happen in any society and no human can deny that.

 

I'd rather say that there are worse things, for example if the government endorsed, condoned or turned a blind eye to it, for one thing.  

 

At some point those of us who are privileged enough to have relative freedom of movement have to stop trying to cherry pick the right country for ourselves and start putting in the effort to make the country we are in a better place.   You can't change the minds of all the close minded xenophobes, but positive interactions with the people around you can have small rippling effects. All of us should try to foster better communities around us by facilitating understanding and acceptance, and living with civility.  What would you say to an English, American or German, white, atheist, legally living and contributing in Pakistan, who wondered if not only the mobs in Pakistan, but the government in Pakistan considered them a liability and would make them a victim of political instability.  If you were in Pakistan, would you actively work to make Pakistan a safer place for that person to live and express themselves?  

 

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Quote

The Hessische police are not permitted to comment nor report on such behaviour!

 

Bullshit. 

 

These are the official press releases of the responsible Hessian police department, the Police Headquarters South Hesse (Polizeipräsidium Südhessen):

 

"POL-DA: Mörlenbach-Bettenbach: Leichen bei Wohnhausbrand geborgen
Familiendrama nicht ausgeschlossen

 

31.08.2018 – 09:05"

 

https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/4969/4048691

 

"POL-DA: Mörlenbach-Bettenbach: Ergänzung zu unserer Meldung: Leichen bei Wohnhausbrand geborgen
Familiendrama nicht ausgeschlossen

 

31.08.2018 – 11:33"

 

https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/4969/4048948

 

"POL-DA: Mörlenbach-Bettenbach: Untersuchungshaftbefehle nach Familiendrama

(...) 

Nach derzeitigem Ermittlungsstand sind der 58-jährige Mann und seine 46-jährige Ehefrau dringend verdächtig, den Tod der Kinder herbeigeführt zu haben. 

 

Die Staatsanwaltschaft Darmstadt hat gegen beide einen Antrag auf Erlass eines Untersuchungshaftbefehls wegen Mordes gestellt. Das zuständige Amtsgericht wird im Laufe des morgigen Samstags darüber entscheiden. (...)

 

31.08.2018 – 15:38"

 

https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/4969/4049415

 

 

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By definition, most people who stand out are targets: a brown person in germany, a black person in brittany, a white person in japan or india...the group is afraid of change and differences and here; you are that person.

 

Chris Rock

"There ain't a white man in this room that would change places with me. None of you. None of you would change places with me, and I'm rich!"

 

Even money doesn't guarantee safety. 

 

When you ask the questions you do, it shows a lack of maturity.  You want someone to tell you your future and that is a child's wish.  Maybe you should add Humanities to your schooling.

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4 hours ago, john g. said:

There is always an obvious reason,  Auswanderer. ( I sense your irony there, though! ).

No one in their innocence walking in a street should be stabbed/hassled whether German, Pakistani, Muslim, non-Muslim. I hope the OP will stay safe.

And I hope the modern " Left " will stop seeing racism as purely a phenomenon of white Westerners - it is such nonsense. Crappy secretarian  racist violence is everywhere in the world.

 

How about Egypt?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/10/christians-egypt-unprecedented-persecution-report

 

Or Pakistan?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/killed-attack-christians-pakistan-quetta-180402161157315.html

 

NO to ALL shitty behaviour!

And don´t get me started on Jakarta!!:angry:

 

Racism is not illegal right. Racism is a shorthand for something else. That something else is the thing that is missing from your assessment.

 

2 hours ago, catjones said:

By definition, most people who stand out are targets: a brown person in germany, a black person in brittany, a white person in japan or india...the group is afraid of change and differences and here; you are that person.

 

Chris Rock

"There ain't a white man in this room that would change places with me. None of you. None of you would change places with me, and I'm rich!"

 

Even money doesn't guarantee safety. 

 

When you ask the questions you do, it shows a lack of maturity.  You want someone to tell you your future and that is a child's wish.  Maybe you should add Humanities to your schooling.

 

Chris Rock wasn't talking about his safety. He broke it down and you still missed it.

In general being a lesser-stakeholder in society is what makes a target. Not numerical differences.

It should also be noted that "standing out criteria" shifts with time or in other words we are taught what the significant differences are.

 

 

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7 hours ago, jimmycoffee said:

How about stop appealing to the gallery, realise that every single thing that happens in Germany is not necessarily about you personally or what you have done here and just get on with your life?

That would be a good start.

 

Academic abstract rationalization meets literalist limitations shocker :o

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I left Germany eight years ago and am back in the US now.  Just came by Toytown to see what’s going on.  Heard about this incident in the news (Washington Post, NY Times, etc.).  Sad to me that the whole world seems to be getting meaner, more tribalistic, and full of diatribe for “foreigners."  Wish the OP didn’t have to be in fear.  And given where he comes from, I doubt it would be a whole lot better here in the US at this time, even if he could get a visa.  And, as many have pointed out as a white woman, I wouldn’t likely be safe going to Pakistan because of my race, gender and assumed religion.  It does make me sad to see pictures of Germans giving a Nazi salute in public.  I was so impressed during my time there as how it seemed Germany had collectively learned where hatred and racism takes a nation and moved away from that.  I’m watching it happen over here with suppressed horror.  We humans are a ridiculous species.  Maybe we are in our inevitable decline?

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