Should I quit my job or should I get fired

20 posts in this topic

Hi people,

 

I need your help again.

 

I work in a small company - it is the owner and me at work. 1 room 2 desks that it is.

 

Last month just before 1 year working for this person - something snapped, and my boss started bulling me at work. Screaming at me, how I´m not doing anything, trying to make me work without lunch break (I fight for my right and yes, I have lunch break), that I´m ruining the business and so on.

 

Of course, that is bullshit. I worked pretty well considering I was never send to a training (ok once for a day), not to mention the salary prettyyyyyyyyyyyy low but I said ok I want this experience, it is near home I want to try it. I have normal unbefristete Vertrag after 6 months Probe period. During this one year I was left to work alone for almost one month.

But yesterday was the top - screaming at me for every single thing without any reason I really don´t want to go into detail. At the end she even told me not come back after my lunch break (I was back in the office on time.) She said that she deals enough with me for one year. I´ve go the limit of my patience and I replied - if I´m so bad employee why don´t you fire me. She blocked for a moment and she said this is coming. I asked ok when. She didn´t reply but started accusing me that I´m treating her...

 

I must mention I started this the same day that the other colleague went on maternity leave. And I suppose that she is coming back, and my boss is acting like this because she doesn´t want to pay to 2 people.

 

Now the question: Is it really so hard to fire a person in Germany? Why she is not firing me?

 

Of course I want to leave this job because of this conditions but I would like to ask you what is better for me to quit or being fired?

 

Is there any advantage for me if I get fired, or should I just quit?

 

Is it worth it to contact a lawyer?

In such situation is it worth it to ask for a qualifiziertes Zeugnis because I suppose she will write bad things that are not true.

 

Guys I really appreciate your help and support I´m really confused with this situation and I really don´t know what to do.

 

I will really appreciate if you try to answer all my questions.

 

Thanks A LOT in advance

 

 

 

 

 

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It is against the law to give you a bad zeugnis. If you quit, you will get barred from getting unemployment for up to three months. Therefore it's better if you are laid off or as you have seen on another thread if you quit for health reasons.

 

Do not sign an aufhebungsvertrag. That is the same as quitting. Your employer with such few staff will have no legal problem to lay you off. There would be no reason to try to bully you into leaving.

 

What you could do in the short term would be to see your doctor and tell him you are being bullied and that it is causing you anxiety. Ask to be written off sick. You will not have to endure her bullying anymore and she will likely lay you off after a few weeks. 

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Thanks LeonG for the reply.

 

But then I really don´t understand why if let say she doesn´t like me or she wants me so much to leave instead of bulling - just fire me?

 

What role does it play for my next job if I quit or if I get fired. Do the next employer will somehow get such information?

 

``It is against the law to give you a bad zeugnis. `` That is probably why all the Zeugnis seem nice but in the reality they have hidden codes.

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She may be afraid to fire you in case you sue her.  A potential employer who sees on your CV that you worked in this 

company could contact the company and ask about you.  If they do and the former employer says you were fired, they will know.  However, think your former employer could be in trouble if they say anything bad about you to a potential.  You can find out after you are gone by having a friend phone her and pretend to be an employer who is thinking of hiring you.

 

You could just speak openly to her.  Say something like, if I were such a horrible employee, I know you would have kicked me out right away so it's obvious to me that you want me out now.  Since you are a small employer, you will have no legal problem if you lay me off and I will not try to make any problems for you as long as you give me a good zeugnis as I deserve and speak well of me in case someone asks.

 

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First thing is that I think you need to find another job.  But while you are searching as @LeonG says  don't quit. 

This is obviously not a long term workable solution, the boss is a bully and you are better off out of there.

 

In the short term I also agree that you should find a sympathetic Hausartz and explain the situation and try to get written off sick due to stress.  Focus on the bullying and the verbal abuse.  Next, start writing a diary of what occurs when for all the bad instances.  E.g.  They said xyz to me on xx.xx.xx @ hh:mi   Keep this diary secure, password protected and out of the way of your employer (don't let them know and keep it subtle when you make notes or wait until the evening)

 

It is possible that if you are off ill for a couple of weeks that the attitude of your boss will change, as they suddenly have all the work to do and realise that actually they need you.  Although I would not bet on it and I think you are still better off out of there long term.

 

Then find a new job ASAP and quit.  Or if you want to push the situation then you can also challenge your boss to fire you, as you already done once, but you could push it "you don't have the guts to fire!", "You'll just pissed because I do a better job than you can" etc.  

 

In the meantime don't give them any other reason to fire due to bad work you but don't do any extra.  e.g.  You come in on time (or 5 mins early), your leave on time (or 5 mins late).  You accept the tasks you are given and perform them good enough and quick enough but not amazing. (Don't refuse any work or meetings!).

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Additionaly now I'm in a process for a German passport hopefully this situation will not make my case look bad. Any advice on this point.

By the way I've never took money for being unemployed. And never registered in a Job Center.  For the the Einburgerung they just checked exactly this. I think I shouldn't register there either now as well because of the Einburgerung. Thanks for your help!!!

 

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Job problems won't impact this, they have not clue!  In theory even if you are unemployed for a short period then it should not block this assuming that you are still able to support yourself either directly or via your partner.  But then I would not risk being unemployed until this is done if possible.

I know for a friend that completed this last year that they requested again a confirmation from the company and salary statements at the end of the process for a 2nd time (as well as at the application phase) just to be sure that he was still working (it took 9 months).

 

BTW:  I am also going through the Einbürgerung.

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8 hours ago, Lotzo said:

For the the Einburgerung they just checked exactly this.

 

 

Theoretically receiving ALG1 is not grounds for being denied citzenship. ALG2 is something else. (They can do all sorts of tricks if they want to though. For example, since ALG1 is limited to X months, they  can drag your application out and then say, lookey loo, you don't have an income...).  And you have to prove to them that you have a guaranteed income (standard unbefristete contract, that the world is moving to gigs and short term contracts is of no interest to the people who deal with citizenship, why should it, they have jobs for life). So if you really want citizenship be careful. (or you might be in a case where you can get it w/out any hassle and then you can do what you like. I could but I would have to give up US citizenship).

 

It sounds like your boss is trying to 'mobbing' or bully you out the door. Mobbing is the German word but they think it is American (or English?). I never heard it before I moved to DE. There is no reason to quit. If he makes your job untenable, then you have to figure out how to get a very long sick leave. He could then try to fire you but you can contest a firing.  If you quit you are on your own regarding income (note that the you will get a Sperrzeit but be required to look for work during that time). If you get legal insurance today you can maybe get some help in 3 months. (or if you have it already see if they have a hotline).

 

I feel for you. Late summer is a good time to be get in some quality recuperation time at the doctors orders.

 

er, yeah, like LeonG said... (read, then post, read, then post...) In a very small shop he is somewhat freer to can you. But still, that is better than quitting. Also, any quitting or resignation bonus can extend your Sperrzeit.

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20 hours ago, LeonG said:
20 hours ago, LeonG said:

There would be no reason to try to bully you into leaving.

 

It just might be what Germans do in such a case. They might be as ignorant of the rules as say, foreigners.

 

 

And while it is illegal to give someone a bad Zeugnis, by the time you decipher a German Zeugniss as a foreigner you will be well into your ALG1 or hopefully a new job. And getting a lawyer to do it costs. You can use online 'decoders' but what a pain. I don't believe any non native speaker or even German who doesn't work in HR will get all the subleties.

 

(Someone will now jump in and claim it is easy and are able to do it from TT and so you can send any Zeugniss to that person!).

 

Honesty Strategy: If you really have to get out of there though and need a good Zeugnis hint to the boss that you could quit based on health reasons (if you are having issues) and could really use a good Zeugniss. Maybe she will be sympathetic and see it as a way you don't get a Sperrzeit and she doesn't have to fire you. (Honesty is a bit relative here, you are honest with your boss). But if you are in the screaming stages already, just get the doctors note and deal with it from poolside.

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31 minutes ago, mako1 said:

It just might be what Germans do in such a case. They might be as ignorant of the rules as say, foreigners.

 

True. Many German employers don't know the proper language of writing a Zeugnis either. I even heard of one who hired a person for the office partly due to their Zeugnis writing skills. He said he didn't want to give a good employee a bad zeugnis by mistake.

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If you get fired and your future employer might contacts your current employer, then it is likely to be bad for you.

If you quit yourself, you won't be able to get certain benefits, as @LeonG pointed out.

Also, waiting for them to fire you is a source of stress. Working for them is also a stress factor. So, I'd quit.

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Hi everyone,

 

Thank you all for your help. After a lot of thinking I´m quitting. After all is my health and my time and no job is worth it. But I must ask some more questions regarding the Kündigung because I´ve never done it.

 

Quote

 

Kündigung

 

Nach Ablauf der Probezeit beträgt die Kündigungsfrist vier Wochen zum Ende eines Kalendermonats. Jede gesetzliche Verlängerung der Kündigungsfrist zugunsten des Arbeitnehmers gilt in gleicher Weise auch zugunsten des Arbeitgebers. Die Kündigung bedarf der Schriftform. Vor Antritt des Arbeitsverhältnisses ist die Kündigung ausgeschlossen.

 

Der Arbeitgeber ist berechtigt, den Arbeitnehmer bis zur Beendigung des Arbeitsverhältnisses freizustellen. Die Freistellung erfolgt unter Anrechnung der dem Arbeitnehmer eventuell noch zu-stehenden Urlaubsansprüche sowie eventueller Guthaben auf dem Arbeitszeitkonto. In der Zeit der Freistellung hat sich der Arbeitnehmer einen durch Verwendung seiner Arbeitskraft erzielten Verdienst auf den Vergütungsanspruch gegenüber dem Arbeitgeber anrechnen zu lassen.

 

Das Arbeitsverhältnis endet spätestens mit Ablauf des Monats, in dem der Arbeitnehmer das für ihn gesetzlich festgelegte Renteneintrittsalter vollendet hat.

 

Der Arbeitgeber ist einseitig berechtigt, den Arbeitnehmer während der Kündigungsfrist von der Arbeit unter Anrechnung etwaiger Jahresurlaubsansprüche und eventueller Zeitguthaben unwiderruflich freizustellen, wenn das Interesse des Arbeitgebers an der Freistellung das Beschäftigungsinteresse des Arbeitnehmers überwiegt. Ein überwiegendes Interesse des Arbeitgebers liegt insbesondere bei einer Störung des Vertrauensverhältnisses nach einem schweren Fehlverhalten des Arbeitnehmers vor, oder wenn dessen Weiterbeschäftigung zu einer Gefährdung von Betriebsgeheimnissen oder der Ordnung im Betrieb führen würde.

 

Meaning I must quit latest until 31.08.2018 in order my last working day in the company to be 28.09.2018?

 

Quote

 

Urlaub

 

Der Jahresurlaub betragt insgesamt 25 Arbeitstage ausgehend einer 5-Tagewocne. Der Jahresurlaub setzt sich zusammen aus dem gesetzlichen Urlaub von 20 Arbeitstagen bei einer 5-Tagewoche und einem übergesetzlichen Urlaub von weiteren 5 Arbeitstagen bei einer 6-Tagewoche.

 

Scheidet der Arbeitnehmer nach Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit von sechs Monaten aus dem Arbeitsverhältnis in der zweiten Hälfte des Kalenderjahrs aus, so hat er Anspruch auf den gesetzlichen Mindesturlaub. Bei Ausscheiden vor Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit steht dem Arbeitnehmer für jeden vollen Beschäftigungsmonat ein Zwölftel des gesetzlichen Mindesturlaubs zu.

 

lm Eintrlits- und Austrittsjahr steht dem Arbeitnehmer für jeden vollen Beschäftigungsmonat ein Zwölftel des übergesetzlichen Jahresurlaubs zu.

 

Mit der Gewährung von Urlaub wird zunächst der ältere Urlaubsanspruch und bei gleich alten Urlaubsansprüchen zunächst der gesetzliche Urlaubsanspruch erfüllt.

 

 

2017 I had the right of 10 days holiday which I couldn´t use it because it was the Probezeit.

 

2018 I have the right September inclusive of 18 days right?

 

I used 9 days holiday so I have 19 left. And I have 11 hours and 50 min overtime.

 

So my last working day should be 31.08.2018 half working day?

Thank you in advance!!!

 

 

 

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On 8/22/2018, 4:27:24, Lotzo said:

But then I really don´t understand why if let say she doesn´t like me or she wants me so much to leave instead of bulling - just fire me?

 

She may not have a replacement or she realizes how difficult getting one would be.  When you leave 50% of the workforce is gone, but 100% of the work remains....for her.

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1 hour ago, catjones said:

She may not have a replacement or she realizes how difficult getting one would be.  When you leave 50% of the workforce is gone, but 100% of the work remains...for her.

Thanks catjones but then what about the bullying and now is not so strong period regarding the work. I cannot understand it but never mind I´m quitting.

 

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Thank you all once again. Under is my Kündingung I will appreciate if you have any comments. Tomorrow I´m giving it and I will send it per Post just in case. I´ve just read that Kündigung per Post is not enough because so I´m proving only that I sent something and she received something. But it is like back up plan. What can I do when she doesn´t want to sign after erhalten am:?

 

My Name

Address

 

 

Boss Name

 

Company

Address

 

 

KÜNDIGUNG MEINES ARBEITSVERTRAGES                                                 27.08.2018

 

Sehr geehrte XXXXX,

 

hiermit kündige ich meinen Arbeitsvertrag den ich mit Ihnen am 01.08.2017 geschlossen habe, fristgerecht zum 30.09.2018.

 

Ich sehe mich leider gezwungen, das Arbeitsverhältnis nicht weiter fortzuführen.

 

Zeitgleich beantrage ich hiermit meinen verbliebenen Resturlaub (19 Tage) und Überstünden (11 Std. und 50 Min) zum Ende der Kündigungsfrist. Dadurch ergibt sich der 31.08.2018 (um 13:40 Uhr) als mein letzter Arbeitstag.

 

Bitte bestätigen Sie mir den Erhalt dieser Kündigung und das Beendigungsdatum schriftlich.

 

Bitte, erstellen Sie mir ein qualifiziertes Arbeitszeugnis und lassen Sie mir dies zusammen mit meinen Arbeitspapieren bzw. Gehaltsabrechnungen für Januar 2018, Mai 2018, Juni 2018, Juli 2018 und weitere Arbeitsperiode in den ich tätig war an die obige Adresse zukommen.

 

Ich bedanke mich für die erfolgreiche, stets angenehme Zusammenarbeit und das mir von Ihnen entgegengebrachte Vertrauen. Ich wünsche Ihnen und Ihrem Unternehmen auch für die Zukunft weiterhin viel Erfolg. 

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

 

Unterschrift

 

My name

 

 

Erhalten am 27.08.2018                                                                                                 Unterschrift:

 

                                                                                                                                       Boss Name     

 

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Today I found out that I only have 20 days holiday because of this: Scheidet der Arbeitnehmer nach Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit von sechs Monaten aus dem Arbeitsverhältnis in der zweiten Hälfte des Kalenderjahrs aus, so hat er Anspruch auf den gesetzlichen Mindesturlaub.

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On 23.8.2018, 19:21:04, mako1 said:

Mobbing is the German word but they think it is American (or English?). I never heard it before I moved to DE

It's used a lot when describing bird behaviour

 

35 minutes ago, Lotzo said:

Today I found out that I only have 20 days holiday because of this: Scheidet der Arbeitnehmer nach Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit von sechs Monaten aus dem Arbeitsverhältnis in der zweiten Hälfte des Kalenderjahrs aus, so hat er Anspruch auf den gesetzlichen Mindesturlaub.

You have a minimum of 20 days per year (for a 5 day workweek) and you can take all of them. Anything above that depends on what you have in your contract

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Thanks msam

 

This what I have in the contract

Urlaub

 

Der Jahresurlaub betragt insgesamt 25 Arbeitstage ausgehend einer 5-Tagewocne. Der Jahresurlaub setzt sich zusammen aus dem gesetzlichen Urlaub von 20 Arbeitstagen bei einer 5-Tagewoche und einem übergesetzlichen Urlaub von weiteren 5 Arbeitstagen bei einer 6-Tagewoche.

 

Scheidet der Arbeitnehmer nach Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit von sechs Monaten aus dem Arbeitsverhältnis in der zweiten Hälfte des Kalenderjahrs aus, so hat er Anspruch auf den gesetzlichen Mindesturlaub. Bei Ausscheiden vor Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit steht dem Arbeitnehmer für jeden vollen Beschäftigungsmonat ein Zwölftel des gesetzlichen Mindesturlaubs zu.

 

lm Eintrlits- und Austrittsjahr steht dem Arbeitnehmer für jeden vollen Beschäftigungsmonat ein Zwölftel des übergesetzlichen Jahresurlaubs zu.

 

Mit der Gewährung von Urlaub wird zunächst der ältere Urlaubsanspruch und bei gleich alten Urlaubsansprüchen zunächst der gesetzliche Urlaubsanspruch erfüllt.

 

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On 27.8.2018, 17:43:17, Lotzo said:

Thanks msam

 

This what I have in the contract

Urlaub

 

Der Jahresurlaub betragt insgesamt 25 Arbeitstage ausgehend einer 5-Tagewocne. Der Jahresurlaub setzt sich zusammen aus dem gesetzlichen Urlaub von 20 Arbeitstagen bei einer 5-Tagewoche und einem übergesetzlichen Urlaub von weiteren 5 Arbeitstagen bei einer 6-Tagewoche.

 

Scheidet der Arbeitnehmer nach Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit von sechs Monaten aus dem Arbeitsverhältnis in der zweiten Hälfte des Kalenderjahrs aus, so hat er Anspruch auf den gesetzlichen Mindesturlaub. Bei Ausscheiden vor Erfüllung der gesetzlichen Wartezeit steht dem Arbeitnehmer für jeden vollen Beschäftigungsmonat ein Zwölftel des gesetzlichen Mindesturlaubs zu.

 

lm Eintrlits- und Austrittsjahr steht dem Arbeitnehmer für jeden vollen Beschäftigungsmonat ein Zwölftel des übergesetzlichen Jahresurlaubs zu.

 

Mit der Gewährung von Urlaub wird zunächst der ältere Urlaubsanspruch und bei gleich alten Urlaubsansprüchen zunächst der gesetzliche Urlaubsanspruch erfüllt.

 

To get someone's attention it's better to use the quote function

 

That seems to be saying that you have right to the 20 free days as provided by law, plus 1/12 of the extra days per month. Since you worked till August you had the right to 8/12 of 5 which is 3.3 days (That probably means 4 days - I think it has to be rounded up, but I'm not sure)

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On 8/23/2018, 11:29:07, dj_jay_smith said:

 

Job problems won't impact this, they have not clue!  In theory even if you are unemployed for a short period then it should not block this assuming that you are still able to support yourself either directly or via your partner.  But then I would not risk being unemployed until this is done if possible.

 

@dj_jay_smith, referring to your message that's 2 years old. I hope your EInbürgerung process was successful. I detailed my situation in this link: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/370089-einbürgerung-in-7-years/?do=findComment&comment=3850348

Do you have any suggestions for me? Thanks in advance. 

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