German citizenship applications, current BREXIT deadlines

[swimmer 3,707]

I don't think anyone thinks you are being negative, you are probably right.   I understand your point totally but I think it's more that a lot of us probably have very little idea of the detail and / or we no longer care.  I have no idea of what Clause 37 is  (or any Clauses 1 to 36).    I'm very much focussing on my life here in Germany.   Not the bilge coming out of London.   (Even my German bank manager yesterday observed "It's a mess, isn't it?")

 

If that means what is generally called "hard Brexit" then - yes - I think that is exactly what a lot of Remain voters at least always assumed from 24 June 2016.     That's why my citizenship application went in a week later .  I have never planned for anything else.   Great if it's not like that but I cannot sensibly plan it will be.  "Leave" never meant "leave while cherrypicking the bits Britons want" despite Brexiter delusions.   (And I knew the Irish border was where it would end, given the UK historic claim on the territory and resultant lack of border, even pre-EU - Politics 101, you never put a border up on what you see as your own territory, see also Serbia with Kosovo).

 

Mrs May at least got that right in my opinion:  Brexit means Brexit.   Leave means Leave.  Exactly what the 52% voted for. 

[warsteiner70 291]

1 hour ago, RenegadeFurther said:

 

Quote

For everyone else the important date is the 31st Dec 2020.

 

What a stupid thing to say.

 

 

 

Oh dear, did you take me saying that you always look on the negative side of things personally? Is this something you have been told quite a few times previously?

 

Don't worry RF I've encountered people like you in the real world who always have the weight of the world on your shoulders and if anyone tries to help them then they always find fault with the suggestions. I've learned a long time ago it's best just to steer clear of people like that so I've leave this discussion and let you get on with it.

 

One serious question before I go though - is your name Ian and did you used to live in Cologne? You remind me of a Scottish guy who used to frequent Barney Vallely's Irish Bar in Cologne a few years ago before he moved on elsewhere.

[RenegadeFurther 2,394]

2 hours ago, warsteiner70 said:

 

One serious question before I go though - is your name Ian and did you used to live in Cologne? You remind me of a Scottish guy who used to frequent Barney Vallely's Irish Bar in Cologne a few years ago before he moved on elsewhere.

Nope. Did go to Irish bars in Dusseldorf maybe 7 years ago.

 

Sad to see you go. I hope you change your mind and re-join the debate. 

[sos-the-rope 619]

On 7/13/2018, 1:52:33, MWD said:

At a recent Frankfurt meeting (britishingermany group) with the British Düsseldorf Consul important information emerged. This is especially important for those Brits considering, or with in-progress, Geman citizenship applications. I'm posting here as I could not find any trace of the important information that came to light:

 

...

 

   Good luck to all affected!

 

 

 

Here's something I came across on the Facebook groups with an actual link to an actual German Government website:

 

"Um zu vermeiden, dass längere Bearbeitungszeiten zu Lasten der britischen Einbürgerungsbewerber gehen, wird in dieser ergänzenden Übergangsregelung be-stimmt, dass bei Antragstellung vor Ablauf des Übergangszeitraums die Beibehaltung der britischen Staatsangehörigkeit hingenommen wird, wenn zu diesem Zeitpunkt die weite-ren Einbürgerungsvoraussetzungen bereits erfüllt waren."

 

SOURCE:

 

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/aussenpolitik/europa/brexit-uebergangsgesetz/2119360

 

(download the PDF and check section 3 - page 6)

[pappnase 2,653]

Yeah, but again this is all talking about the draft regulations and the parts of the leave deal that both sides agree on. However because of the 'nothing is decided until everything is decided' doctrine that is being followed, all of these rules could change.

In particular IF the UK crashes out without a deal then there will be no transition period and so the statements there might not apply.

I certainly hope that there will be a transition agreement and that the extra time will be there. It will probably make my life easier, and it will certainly make life easier for some of my extended family living elsewhere in the EU.

However I think at this point relying on the draft regulations is not the best course of action. IF you have the option to protect yourself before UK membership ends on 30th March by getting another EU citizenship then it would be wise to do so.

 

[swimmer 3,707]

Dual citizenship is the new status symbol, as I've said before.   

 

According to Bild today, purchasing Austrian citizenship costs $23.75 million .   There are cheaper EU options from about a mill, but it is an increasingly valuable thing to have.  Something to think about.

[kiplette 8,795]

The website of our Einburgerungsstelle is very clear. If you are a Brit and you want dual citizenship, get on with it, time is short, takes 3-6 months and must be completed by next March the 30th or whatever it is. No special status afterwards. Very clear, and I think quite useful. There are zillions of Brits round here.

 

 

[Sn0wman 21]

9 hours ago, kiplette said:

The website of our Einburgerungsstelle is very clear. If you are a Brit and you want dual citizenship, get on with it, time is short, takes 3-6 months and must be completed by next March the 30th or whatever it is. No special status afterwards. Very clear, and I think quite useful. There are zillions of Brits round here.

 

 

Not sure where the 3-6 months is coming from. I'm currently doing it in Munich and its taking 12 months. 

[Sir Percy B 1,309]

12 hours ago, kiplette said:

There are zillions of Brits round here.

 

Na, not as many as Berlin, we have a gazillion Brits round here.?

[bramble 9,643]

More than 100 000 Brits live in Germany:  Allein in Deutschland leben mehr als 100.000 Briten. 

[RedMidge 6,638]

1 minute ago, bramble said:

More than 100 000 Brits live in Germany:  Allein in Deutschland leben mehr als 100.000 Briten. 

They did not make it up here!

[swimmer 3,707]

3 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

Na, not as many as Berlin, we have a gazillion Brits round here.?

 

Not many historically lasted eight years, though.  Usually much less.  The foreigner population was often very transient.  Only a fraction will have been here since mid-2010.   The number of registered Britons here in total always is about 100k but citizen eligible group's a small subset.  Most Britons I met when I arrived have long since left.   Hannover / NRW is the polar opposite possibly, where the UK armed forces were based.

 

Media reports also suggest that many city authorities generally are very much struggling with absence levels.   When I put mine in, the chap told me they should have had others but they were not there and so he was having to do everyone's.   Mine took 14 months, way back from end June 2016 .  Split about 50:50 between the city and state parts and - to be fair - he told me it was taking a year.  (I understand that's got faster, just in case anyone local finds that alarming).

[RenegadeFurther 2,394]

On 7/17/2018, 1:37:22, swimmer said:

 

For a start, you will be signing to certify a lie you have written on a serious state form is true.    Commiting fraud is not something to do lightly, and definitely not when your counterpart is government.  

 

They will ask what you have been doing in the time you are listing as having lived in Germany and they ask you to provide evidence that you were here.  (There's a list and it requires much more than simply having a registered address, anyone can rent a small flat).

 

 

Back on this subject.

 

So if I just b**gger off, how is this fraud.

 

Surely I can chose where the heck I want to be?

[pappnase 2,653]

If you leave Germany and don't de-register it's a minor offence and will probably result in a small fine. Search the site for leaving without de-registering.

 

I think what @swimmer was alluding to was if you then later pretend that you were living here all that time and write it on your paperwork, that would be fraud even if you didn't de-register.

What is asked about is how long you have been resident in Germany not how long you have been registered in Germany. 

 

[swimmer 3,707]

35 minutes ago, pappnase said:

I think what @swimmer was alluding to was if you then later pretend that you were living here all that time and write it on your paperwork, that would be fraud even if you didn't de-register.

 

I can't really remember the original discussion but this is from the horse's mouth in respect of citizenship.  The authorities specifically require that we provide evidence that we have actually been living here.  A registration alone is not considered sufficient proof.   There is a list of what satisfies that in Hesse.   

 

With an audit background, I am not sure some of the items on that list are any more robust (a bank statement could easily be operated by someone else) but they apparently count.   It seems more like a "second verification" to me, to weed out people who evidently were not living here.  It's not aimed at those of us who are firmly resident but occasionally take time away or work abroad or similar (as many of us do).  No need for that group to worry.

 

And of course we have to sign a declaration that our application is truthful.    That's a key anti-fraud control authorities (and others) usually use when we may gain a benefit.  If we certify something is true when it is not, that is usually firm evidence that we intentionally told a lie.   A signature is not just for bureacuracy.

 

Substance over form is usually a robust principle.  A record saying we registered here is the latter.   The substance is our life actually here.  As long as we have the eight year continuous registration and can back it up with at least one typical example of a normal resident's life that covers that period (it has to be the full eight years of bank statements in Hesse ), we are OK.   I gave my (8) tax returns for instance.  Done stints abroad but always kept mý residency basis here.

[murphaph 9,844]

My Sachbearbeiterin told me the Rentenversicherungsverlauf is very useful for them because they want to see continuous residency. She mentioned "Polish fruit pickers" coming over in summer but being registered somewhere the whole time and that the Rentenversicherungsverlauf clearly shows they were not employed throughout the year and probably weren't resident the whole time. How universal this is I don't know. 

[swimmer 3,707]

It depends on the situation.  In general, if one has been in employment (and thus associated welfare and insurance) the whole time, then that's very solid evidence.   If the record is broken, then this could indicate they were not actually resident.  (The smarter candidate would obviously produce additional narrative to substantiate a life here).

 

It's specific to that situation that person presented as their basis.   A large number of us are not in employment and / or active in welfare process such as pension.    Everyone has to make their own case.

[murphaph 9,844]

Indeed, many people are not going to be paying into the state pension but are perfectly eligible for citizenship. Basically the idea is that the registration alone isn't enough evidence of genuine continuous residence. They want more (at least in my Landkreis).

[paulwork 731]

You can also be employed by a German company on a German contract, pay all the taxes etc... but be resident in the UK (except for occasional business meetings in DE).

 

So the Verlauf isn't always proof of residency anyway. But I guess its better than some other documents.

[swimmer 3,707]

However, such a UK resident would not be eligible for Germany citizenship anyway, of course.   They have not done 8 years German residency.  If you have never bothered living in a country, that would indicate you are not commited to being a citizen. (Even if you get to buy it for shedloads).

 

Working for a foreign company while residing in one's own nation (or any other) would not entitle one to citizenship of that company's nation.  (Unless you are some exceptional person for whom an "honorary" exception is made).

 

But, yes, a decision to remain resident of one's home nation rather than the alternative (in this case Germany) can have consequences later on that are not on radar at the time of the decision.  As I mentioned here before,  I turned down offers to go to other places during my 8 years, including some of the generous transnational sort people don't understand you turn down.   I was aware of the impact of breaking my residency would have on potentially acquiring citizenship, although I also had no desire for it at that point.    Last was a year before Brexit .  Some stuff goes your way, other doesn't.