German citizenship applications, current BREXIT deadlines

[kiplette 8,795]

On 23.7.2018, 08:14:34, Sn0wman said:

Not sure where the 3-6 months is coming from. I'm currently doing it in Munich and its taking 12 months. 

 

On 22.7.2018, 22:36:06, kiplette said:

The website of our Einburgerungsstelle is very clear.

 

'our' - so the time frame is unlikely to be of any use in Munich.

[nina_glyndwr 4,748]

On 18/09/2018, 17:32:33, pappnase said:

If you leave Germany and don't de-register it's a minor offence and will probably result in a small fine. Search the site for leaving without de-registering.

 

@swimmer

Just look blank and say, "But I sent the form through the post on the day I left. What do you mean you never got it?"

 

Worked for me.

[apolaine 0]

I have two questions that I can’t find the answer to, but maybe someone here can point me in the right direction. 

 

I’m a dual UK (by birth) and Australian (by long-winded process) married to a German and my daughter is German. We lived here for ten years, then recently in Australia again for 2.5 years and just came back a few months ago. 

 

1. If I apply for German citizenship, I know they can’t make me give up my UK one (yet) but can they then make me give up the Australian one? It’s very hard to get and I’d be loathe to do so. My wife is also dual German and Australian, so there may be grounds for a Beibehaltungserlaubnis. 

 

2. Does anyone know the amount of German residency time required for Einbürgerung has to be in one block? In total I’ve lived over 10 years here, but also spend 2.5 years away on top of that. 

 

Thanks for any answers. 

[swimmer 3,707]

1.  The dual possibility seems very much an EU / EEA one.   Not normal for other states.   (I also had to sign a document acknowledging I may have to choose between German any my EU one at some point).  Australian passport holders here also indicate you may well have to give that one up.

 

2.  It is eight years non-stop standard, at the time of application.  Some goups get concessions (7 years for integration course etc).  Retrospective after leaving / coming back is only rare historical exceptions. (The one regarding Nazi era is in the news today).   As noted on another thread, we won't logically be seen to have settled here if we chose to live somewhere else.   Even all of us registered here for eight years or more have to show additional evidence of an actual life lived here (employment history, or tax returns or something).  

[pappnase 2,653]

For naturalisation under Section 10 of the nationality act you need to have been here 8 years and they need to be continuous, but if your wife is 'dual German and Australian' then you can naturalise under section 9 which means you only need to have been here for 2 years.

 

Section 12 covers giving up your citizenship and you would have to find some reason there to keep your Ausie passport if thats what you want.

 

[pappnase 2,653]

Hmm actually now that I've just been re-reading that law in order to answer the previous question, I have one of my own.

 

It's a bit of a maze to check all the requirements completely, but having just gone over it again the English version seems to suggest that if one is applying as the spouse of a German, the Einbürgerungstest shouldn't be required. 

 

Can someone take a look at the original German for  section 9  Naturalization of spouses or life partners of Germans.

 

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

31 minutes ago, swimmer said:

 

2.  It is eight years non-stop standard, at the time of application.  Some goups get concessions (7 years for integration course etc).  ...

 

 

If you are married to a German then it is 3 year residency in Germany with 2 years marriage to a German.

[apel 38]

3 hours ago, pappnase said:

It's a bit of a maze to check all the requirements completely, but having just gone over it again the English version seems to suggest that if one is applying as the spouse of a German, the Einbürgerungstest shouldn't be required

 

 

Interesting point.

 

I have just completed my naturalisation as the spouse of a German, and I was certainly required to do the Einbürgerungstest.

 

I think the requirement is possibly a consequence of Section 9 Paragraph (1) 2., which in the original German (though not the English translation) uses the same words (deutschen Lebensverhältnisse) as Section 10 Paragraph (1)7., which relates to the Einbürgerungstest. So in order to ensure that the applicant conforms to deutschen Lebensverhältnisse, it is reasonable that the Einbürgerungstest is required as evidence.

 

In any case, the Einbürgerungstest is hardly a great challenge.

[swimmer 3,707]

There is that "Life in Germany" test some others here talk about that has to be done at least on on the integration course?  Same thing but you have to get 15 of 33, not 17? 

 

I was going to note that the Einbürgerung is not onerous for most doing it but that's typically on the back of the eight years and quite high German.   Someone who's been here 2-3 and not been required to do much German would possibly find it challenging.  (I would say the language is quite advanced, it's above the B1 level that the citizenship asks the 8 year cohort for).

[fraufruit 42,496]

Wahahaha! I could not pass this test.

 

Should I leave?

[kaju 18]

5 hours ago, apolaine said:

I have two questions that I can’t find the answer to, but maybe someone here can point me in the right direction. 

 

I’m a dual UK (by birth) and Australian (by long-winded process) married to a German and my daughter is German. We lived here for ten years, then recently in Australia again for 2.5 years and just came back a few months ago. 

 

1. If I apply for German citizenship, I know they can’t make me give up my UK one (yet) but can they then make me give up the Australian one? It’s very hard to get and I’d be loathe to do so. My wife is also dual German and Australian, so there may be grounds for a Beibehaltungserlaubnis. 

 

2. Does anyone know the amount of German residency time required for Einbürgerung has to be in one block? In total I’ve lived over 10 years here, but also spend 2.5 years away on top of that. 

 

Thanks for any answers. 

 

 

I have UK and Aus citizenship too, wife is German and recently Australian too, kids have all three. Planning to live in Germany in the reasonably near future, but as retirees we may go live in Austria for a year first, starting in a few months' time, so we can join the state health insurance there and then transfer (intra-EU) to the German system - but that's another story!  (We're over 55, so although my wife will be eligible, I can't be added to my wife's cover).

My wife recently was granted a beibehaltung to enable her to get Aus citizenship so she'd be able to return here (Australia) if our extremely disabled son needed that (if I was dead by then).The beibehaltung process took about 9 months, and the subsequent Aus citizenship about 15 months. But a beibehaltung is for German citizens to permit them to get another nationality as well as keeping their German nationality, not for a citizen of another (non-EU) country to be allowed to get German citizenship while keeping their old citizenship.

 

My understanding is that you'd be required to give up Aus citizenship. But... the Aus Government understands that this can be required, and does permit you to regain Aus citizenship after you lose that, to get your German citizenship. Regaining Aus citizenship is a pretty simple process, but might take 18 months to process the way they are going at the moment. https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/citi/pathways-processes/resume

 

Just as an aside - I could apply for German citizenship after 3 years residence since my wife is German, lose the UK and Aus Cit's and then regain the Aus citizenship afterwards - but I won't as my fairly meagre Australian government service pension then would become taxable in Germany under the dual taxation agreement if I gained German nationality. I won't pay tax on that in Germany under the agreement as long as I am not a national of Germany, and my government service pension is not taxable here in Australia where's it's paid from, so it seems I'll just have to live in Germany as a foreign spouse.

[swimmer 3,707]

11 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Wahahaha! I could not pass this test.

 

Should I leave?

 

No, please don't .   You'd just not be able to complete citizenship right now, assuming they made it a condition.  And you could quite easily be trained up.  Very large numbers are .   I also presume you can repeat it.   I never heard "one strike and out".

 

Once you get to the level of language plus knowledge, it's dead easy.  Most people I did it with (i.e. not me) rattled it off in minutes.

 

But it's quite new.   I actually did a previous version during the integration course and we wrote answers (but it was not valid by the time I put my app in).  So longstanding sorts with citizenship never got evaluated in this way probably.

 

On the previous comment - Yes, easy to forget many nations would just give us the old citizenship back.

[fraufruit 42,496]

I understand the questions, just don't know the answers. Sure I could learn them if I was so inclined.

[swimmer 3,707]

Exactly.   That's why it took me longer than the others.  I'd done the training 10 years ago and so was rusty and / or out of date .   But the questions are available and so you can just train / familiarise in them.   Quite a few people seem to get 100%.  It's also in slightly local (state) variants, like mine was Hesse.   

 

In the end I got two wrong and we do not get detailed information but there were two that I puzzled over that I never encountered: one was about marriage process, and the other was some politcal acronym.   But we only have to get 17, so no need to be a total expert.  Given it's 1 in 4 and you can do the usual improving of odds (e.g. eliminating obvious wrong choices) and there's probably "passive" knowledge, then it might not be so hard for many with reasonable grounding here to get 17.

[pappnase 2,653]

@apelThanks, that makes sense. 

[apel 38]

In the Einbürgerungstest, there are 33 questions, selected from a full range of 310. Each question is multiple choice, with 4 possible answers. You need 17 correct to pass.

 

All 310 are published on the internet, with answers.

 

In the first test in fraufruit's post above, there is a preponderance of questions about the old DDR, which maybe many immigrants wouldn't be too familiar with. Although there are several such questions in the full list (too many in my view), I think the selection of the 33 requires balance between the different topics, and you wouldn't get so many in a real test.

 

I agree with swimmer that by eliminating obvious wrong choices and with a reasonable amount of background knowledge, it should be straightforward for most people who understand most of the questions to pass. In particular, many of the questions on social issues, seem to have 3 obvious wrong choices!

 

This is backed up by statistics: on average 98.4% of candidates pass.

[ruapehu 3,756]

Those people suggesting that one could renew their former citizenship once German citizenship has been granted should be aware that Germany does not allow this. With my citizenship certificate, I was also given a form pointing out to me that Germany does not allow dual citizenship, except for EU citizens (in accordance with EU law) and for special, approved, cases. The form advises me that if at any time in the future I were to be granted a citizenship not exempt from this ruling, my German citizenship would be automatically revoked. Furthermore, if I were to subsequently (in the case where I didn't voluntarily hand in my German passport) to identify myself anywhere (using the passport or other ID) as a German citizen, that this would be a criminal offence and punishable. So looks to me like they are ensuring that gap is closed.

[apolaine 0]

Thanks everyone for the very complete answers. Kaju, it sounds like you have similar dilemmas to me. Having lived 9 years of my life in Australia, it’s very much part of our lives, but so are Germany (also 10 years for me and own property here) and the UK. I’d be more inclined to give up my UK citizenship than Australian. I’m fluent in German and have taught at university in German, but I’m not so sure on my obscure German history. I’ll take a look at the test. 

 

Let’s hope Germany changes its stance on dual citizenship sometime. I don’t really feel it reflects modern life (my daughter, adopted from another country, has an even more complex identity choice). 

[swimmer 3,707]

8 minutes ago, apolaine said:

but I’m not so sure on my obscure German history. I’ll take a look at the test. 

 

It's not obscure German history, or arts etc.  It's functional practicalities about life here including the drivers of it (e.g. aspects of the constitution).  

[apolaine 0]

Ah, okay. In that case I may well be okay.