German citizenship applications, current BREXIT deadlines

[MWD 5]

At a recent Frankfurt meeting (britishingermany group) with the British Düsseldorf Consul important information emerged. This is especially important for those Brits considering, or with in-progress, Geman citizenship applications. I'm posting here as I could not find any trace of the important information that came to light:

 

1. At the moment you can have both Germand British citizenships. Britain has always allowd multiple citizenships, Germany will allow as part of curren EU rules.

2. Those receiving their German Einburgerung confirmation letters are being told of this, and there is also a guarantee in the letter that states future legal changes in Germany cannot change this, the 'new' German citizenship cannot be taken away because Britain has left the EU. These people can legally hold both passports until death.

3. However, following formal BREXIT on 31.03.2029 Germany's position will change and all applications that are fully and completely processed before his date will be fine, but those that are only final after 31.3 will not have any sort of guarantee that the 'new' Germany citizenship will not be taken away, or that those persons will not be asked to give up their British citizenship in order to keep the German citizenship.

4. "Fully and completely processed" means letter received and the formal Einburgerung process at your local Rathaus has happened.

5. Current processing times in some major cities are very long.

6. I recommend that all those with in-progress applications to somehow intervene to speed things up.

 

Pensions were also talked about and current DEE/Barnier agreements state that current State pension rules and practices will continue. Thus, years spent in all EU states will continue to be 'reckonable' when 'number of contribution years' are calculated by each affected EU state or Britain. British state pensions will also continue to be uplifted annually in lie with George Osborn's triple lock for all those in receipt of such and resident in EU countries. Obviously applies to all affected nationalities.

 

   Good luck to all affected!

 

[kiplette 8,795]

34 minutes ago, MWD said:

3. However, following formal BREXIT on 31.03.2029

 

2019, as far as I know.

 

Who has decided 4? Is this a guess from the group/the consul, or actual information from a German representative? Letter received is surely binding? Seems odd that the ceremony which is not common to all places (some people just get it from the Beamter over the desk) is the binding moment.

 

Apart from that, I think most of it is as predicted.

[MWD 5]

3. my Typo, 2019 of course!

 

4. Was a statement from the Consul, reflecting actual information from their German counterparts. The letter received is not enough, it is a fine part of German law.

The ceremomy does not have to happen, but the Beamter inviting you to sign and formally receive the certificate from her/him is the binding moment.

[kiplette 8,795]

Fair enough. I guess as the time draws near they might be prepared to hand them out without ceremony if necessary. 

[swimmer 3,707]

This is all correct but I would also say absolutely none of it is any surprise (although I'd treat parts the pension bit relating to UK process with scepticism).  Not one single word.   Nothing "coming to light" or "emerging" there.  Exactly the same as it was on 24 June 2016.  Good that the Consul actually spelled it out to Britons who needed telling but that's all.    It is a statement of exactly how it was always likely to be when any nation and thus its citizens are no longer in the EU. 

 

I can only keep saying:   Follow the evident obvious process.  Don't wish it to be different.  Don't bury your head in the sand.  Do not expect special favours because, hey, we're British.   Do not expect to have cake and eat it, or to cherry pick, and all that other Brexiter BS.  Do not expect exceptions or "but I didn't know" to be thought relevant and so on.    After the date of Brexit, do not expect any special favours.  Because there will not be any.

 

The point about prioritising this if necessary is 100% spot on.  If time is needed to complete applications or go to appointments, then put that at the top of your list.  When I started the citizenship and the other things I did (such as buying more property), I knew they were my absolute most important life things.

 

Quote

Fair enough. I guess as the time draws near they might be prepared to hand them out without ceremony if necessary. 

 

That is how it works.  The city authority just give us it when it comes back from the Parliament - but they do have to do that.  Some authorities choose to host an ocasional celebration for new citizens, but that's a different thing.  We long since got the papers.

[swimmer 3,707]

...

[sos-the-rope 619]

28 minutes ago, swimmer said:

This is all correct but I would also say absolutely none of it is any surprise (although I'd treat the pension bit with scepticism).  Not one single word.   Nothing "coming to light" or "emerging" there.  Exactly the same as we knew it would be right from 24 June 2016.  Good that the Consul actually spelled it out to Britons who needed telling but that's all.    It is a statement of exactly how it was always likely to be when any nation and thus its citizens are no longer in the EU. 

 

I can only keep saying:   Follow the evident obvious process.  Don't wish it to be different.  Don't bury your head in the sand.  Do not expect special favours because, hey, we're British.   Do not expect to have cake and eat it, or to cherry pick, and all that other Brexiter BS.  Do not expect exceptions or "but I didn't know" to be thought relevant and so on.    After the date of Brexit, do not expect any special favours.  Because there will not be any.

 

The point about prioritising this if necessary is 100% spot on.  If time is needed to complete applications or go to appointments, then put that at the top of your list.

 

 

That is how it works.  The city authority just give us it when it comes back from the Parliament - but they do have to do that.  Some authorities choose to host an ocasional celebration for new citizens, but that's a different thing.  We long since got the papers.

 

I wonder if the German state will priorities us though? I hope to get my paperwork in next month, it’s literally the earliest possible from my side but what if the delay happens on theirs?!

[sos-the-rope 619]

On 7/13/2018, 7:58:10, kiplette said:

Fair enough. I guess as the time draws near they might be prepared to hand them out without ceremony if necessary. 

 

Man, I hope they hurry it up. Anyone had the feeling that officials are prioritizing Brits who have left it til now through no fault of our own?

[swimmer 3,707]

No.   None at all.   My authority is supportive but we go in the queue and they cannot "prioritise" us ahead of everyone else wanting what we want (even if they wanted to).   There are constitutional and other requirements regarding equalities and so on.   Not how it works here.   At best, at least in  Rhein Main, I would expect any Briton who has not done five years (for permanent residency) to be quietly allowed to stay on and aquire it, albeit perhaps under increased third party national treatment.  That's all.  The above comments are clear in stating the totally obvious.   After Brexit, it is third party national treatment all the way (e.g. no more dual citizenship as allowed for EU).

 

And nations or cities do not run according to another nation's policy decision.  Leave voters in Sunderland or Thanet do not decide who lives in Darmstadt or Frankfurt, or becomes a German citizen.   (It's truly amazing to me how many Britons genuinely assume the views of whinging British misanthropes and xenophobes decide who lives in Berlin or Barcelona or Stockholm or Vilnius - deluded absurd Brexiter nonsense - although of course they can decide who does not ).

 

This is just the wish fulfillment and expectation that we are somehow "special" or "different" that I mentioned.  Britons needs to stop that now.

 

As I said above,  these processes are absolutely no different from 24 June 2016 (or indeed before).   Britons have had 25 months now to do what is needed to look after our interests.  Anyone who has moved here since the referendum also knew the deal.   If a Briton who needs something to sustain their lives and families here has not acted by now, you could say that is their "fault" but that is an emotive term and states don't deal in those.   Nobody else is gonna fix it for them.     As I wrote on another thread - nobody else cares if a Briton individually does not do what it takes to protect their and their family's interests.   Pure self-interest is what is needed now.

 

EDIT - Thinking about this while running, the key message here is a clearcut example of the myth of "retaining our rights" being blasted away.   There is a clear statement that we will not retain our right to dual nationality that EU citizens currently have here (a German law but that was applied by the EU under reciprocity principles).  A right for Britons as EU citizens.  So - hello - again, forget wishfulfilling stuff about "rights".

 

[Sn0wman 21]

I'd be interested to know what impact any transition period would have point 4. Depending on whats agreed, won't it be likely that Britain is still considered to be part of the EU during any transition period? From what I've read so far, I thought it was a case we were still in, but just didn't have a seat at the table.

[swimmer 3,707]

You can still apply to be a German citizen after Brexit.  Same conditions and requirements will apply.  Just cannot keep UK, same as for other third party nationals.

 

The dual nationality for EU citizens is a German process, arising from an original decision it took to allow it for French nationals, it is not an obligation on EU states.  Many do not offer it.   So any EU transition deal is not relevant.  The leaving date is 2019 and so Germany can choose to apply that.  Again, I would say that is absolutely no surprise.  I'd do it if I were Germany.  Treat the state choosing to leave the EU as leaving the EU on the official date it does.

 

Here is what I find hard to understand.  Here is a German official giving a clear statement of something only available to us as EU citizens till the leave date our state chose to leave the EU.   You might think no Briton could say they have not be clearly told that something on offer to EU citizens here will - astonishingly - end for Britons on the day the UK leaves the EU.   

 

But no ! Britons immediately queue up to completely ignore that and say "but what about (something that'd make British lives easier)...".  Even when that "something" is actually of no relevance or benefit to Germany in this case and has just been clearly stated not to happen.    This cycle needs to be broken after 25 months, I think.   Britons need to look to the actual process.

 

Actually allowing us to keep both if we apply by leave date is technically a gain, yay.  Germany could have chosen to ask us to give up one when UK no longer an EU state.  I signed a form accepting that possibilty.   That is a rare piece of good news.   Very happy with that .   I was expecting to have to choose.

[Kase 15]

Dumb question. I'm a British passport holder and have no intention of applying for a German passport and having dual nationality. My wife and son both now have German passports, does this give me some protection ?

[Smaug 5,849]

3 minutes ago, Kase said:

Dumb question. I'm a British passport holder and have no intention of applying for a German passport and having dual nationality. My wife and son both now have German passports, does this give me some protection ?

 

If they live in Germany, yes.

[engelchen 13,041]

On 13.7.2018, 13:52:33, MWD said:

4. "Fully and completely processed" means letter received and the formal Einburgerung process at your local Rathaus has happened.

 

On 13.7.2018, 14:27:03, kiplette said:

Who has decided 4? Is this a guess from the group/the consul, or actual information from a German representative? Letter received is surely binding? Seems odd that the ceremony which is not common to all places (some people just get it from the Beamter over the desk) is the binding moment.

 

The Verwaltungsakt is not vollzogen until the applicant receives the Einbürgerungsurkunde.

[Kase 15]

3 minutes ago, Smaug said:

 

If they live in Germany, yes.

They certainly do , I'm SAVED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Smaug 5,849]

You have the right to live in Germany if your German child lives there. At least until he/she is X years old (can't remember the age).

[RenegadeFurther 2,394]

10 minutes ago, Kase said:

They certainly do , I'm SAVED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you have work in Germany?

 

You will need to apply for the right to stay.

[sneaker 871]

36 minutes ago, Smaug said:

 

If they live in Germany, yes.

Some protection. Better not get divorced and have the wife be granted sole custody or the kid becoming an adult (tends to happen a lot).

 

Seriously, anyone who can get the (dual) citizenship now but doesn't ... is an idiot. German citizenship just makes everything easier. NEVER ever having to deal with Ausländeramt again. Good access to EU countries (and non-EU countries).

Often not mentioned but good to have just in case: Germany doesn't surrender its own citizens to non-EU countries like the US or soon the UK. This has come in handy even for seemingly upstanding citizens like those managers and engineers at Volkswagen et Al.

[onemark 787]

@ Kase:

May we enquire as to why do you do not want German citizenship? Do you already have another citizenship you do not wish to renounce?

As a German citizen, you have various rights that do not apply to non-German EU citizens, such as:

1. voting at state and federal level;

2. not needing a residence permit or work permit if you become a third-country national;

3. more importantly for you, you cannot be extradited;

4. anything else I haven't thought of.

[engelchen 13,041]

8 minutes ago, sneaker said:

Some protection. Better not get divorced and have the wife be granted sole custody or the kid becoming an adult (tends to happen a lot).

 

It doesn't matter if the German spouse has sole custody, it is enough that the foreign parent has contact with the unmarried minor German child. Furthermore, any Brit with a German spouse can apply for an NE after only 3 years. There is no reason for scaremongering with respect to Brits with German spouses/children.

 

8 minutes ago, sneaker said:

Seriously, anyone who can get the (dual) citizenship now but doesn't ... is an idiot. German citizenship just makes everything easier. NEVER ever having to deal with Ausländeramt again. Good access to EU countries (and non-EU countries).

Often not mentioned but good to have just in case: Germany doesn't surrender its own citizens to non-EU countries like the US or soon the UK. This has come in handy even for seemingly upstanding citizens like those managers and engineers at Volkswagen et Al.

Although I agree that apply for German citizenship now is a good idea, you have to acknowledge that your government has a poor track record of getting rid of those who have absolutely no right to live here, much less those who have a German spouse and/or child.

3 hours ago, swimmer said:

You can still apply to be a German citizen after Brexit.  Same conditions and requirements will apply.  Just cannot keep UK, same as for other third party nationals.

 

The dual nationality for EU citizens is a German process, arising from an original decision it took to allow it for French nationals, it is not an obligation on EU states.  Many do not offer it.   So any EU transition deal is not relevant.  The leaving date is 2019 and so Germany can choose to apply that.  Again, I would say that is absolutely no surprise.  I'd do it if I were Germany.  Treat the state choosing to leave the EU as leaving the EU on the official date it does.

Furthermore, if Germany continues to grant German citizenship to British citizens after Brexit, all other third country nationals who are in analogous situations and are required to renounce will cry foul and want the same privileges (I know I will).