Brexit preparations for brits - replace bank cards now etc???

[swimmer 3,707]

As as separate point, I said employment is not my thing but I certainly do not see any "just get a work permit" here.

 

For a start, most employed Britons only got their jobs because of the legal priority for EU citizens in job recruitment.  Had they too been third party nationals, most would have have been declined behind an EU national.  A Frenchperson or Romanian or whoever.   Says nothing about their skills, just how the EU worked in their favour.  Their EU citizenship was essential to get them the job and they will not longer have that.   So British workers are also not like US or Australian workers, who have effectively got themselves into roles no EU worker could do, without reliance on citizenship.

 

And what the wide availability of all EU workers means is that this workforce is more than enough to meet most employer needs. Most employers round my way (which include some of my family) do not even do work permits, except possibly for esential staff on assignment from their own HQs and similar.  Absolutely no need for them to bother with such time-wasting bureaucracy.   Rhein Main, Berlin, Munich et al are crawling with highly skilled EU workers, who speak English and often German.  They do not need third party ones.

 

Do Britons saying "just get a work permit" really not see those basic processes and the differences?  Do they not see that employers and other parties also have their own ideas and priorities, and that there are laws that have to be applied, to us as well as others?

,

Round my way, every job spec has "must have right to work here" on it.  As I say, that is not my area, but I think that is about residency.   Nothing to do with permits.  

[RedMidge 6,638]

As swimmer has described - many of us have thought out our role and path in life when we came here. So, making a permanent life has meant learning German, buying a home or finding a long term rental. ( Good landlords like this!)

Establishing work, pension etc means that life should not change too much for many. Yes, more paperwork maybe .

Those affected may well be those who are struggling with freelance, low paid jobs, and those who are relying on UK health card and  not following regulations.

[swimmer 3,707]

I would phrase the last bit more strongly.  Those not following regulations and participating as required will have no rights.  Again, thinking they can somehow acquire "rights" now it suits is just more of the comforting wish-fulfillment that ain't gonna happen.  Any non-compliant person or whoever suddenly popping up claiming to have lived here for a decade will get short shrift.

 

And it does not just apply to people living marginally.  Around 10,000 ex-services staff (of course mainly older) have never been residents because that profession is always kept outside that.  They have built no "rights" as EU citizens here.

[RenegadeFurther 2,394]

1 hour ago, swimmer said:

I would phrase the last bit more strongly.  Those not following regulations and participating as required will have no rights.  Again, thinking they can somehow acquire "rights" now it suits is just more of the comforting wish-fulfillment that ain't gonna happen.  Any non-compliant person or whoever suddenly popping up claiming to have lived here for a decade will get short shrift.

 

And it does not just apply to people living marginally.  Around 10,000 ex-services staff (of course mainly older) have never been residents because that profession is always kept outside that.  They have built no "rights" as EU citizens here.

 

I think what happens to us will very much depend on what the UK does with EU citizens. In the case of Hard Brexit the very prospect of the Tory Government pushing for mass deportations of EU citizens is a real possibility. Remember there is also no registering mechanism so whether EU citizens stay or not are in the hands of the Tory party.

 

Not an EU citizen bust still disturbing.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/16/widowed-father-ordered-leave-uk-against-advice-of-home-office-lawyers-andrew-farotade

 

[swimmer 3,707]

See, I think the opposite of that.   I don't think there's much connection between how Germany runs and how the UK treats a million Poles and the rest.   Germany does not decide its policy based on what the UK or other EU nation wants.  Darmstadt (city) supports us strongly, for example, but it is always supportive of  residents - it is no way driven by what the UK is doing.   It definitely does not run its affairs in any respect, or decide who lives or works here, according to the whims of foreign xenophobes.

 

The UK-Germany relationship in terms of resident numbers is a marginal one in EU terms.   The significant number of Britons is in Spain (mainly older) and the main population in the UK is Polish (mainly working but will get older).   The big migrant populations - British in EU and EU in UK - don't really map.  I don't see our population as greatly relevant to all of that.

 

Also, sensible states don't deal in emotive terms like "deportation".   That's the usual Brexiter nonsense.    States are much much more sophisticated and they definitely understand human nature.  It only takes certain rights we had under the EU to dwindle away for many lives to be far less sustainable here - no longer having priority for jobs, the UK taxpayer not paying our healthcare (especially in retirement), less free movement, reduced access to welfare, family not being able to move here or live temporarily when it suits, inability for an EU partner to move here freely, and lots lots more etc.

 

As soon as Spain introduced mandatory healthcare for foreigners in 2012, the number of Britons registered living there fell by 50%.  Spain knew it did not have to actually say "go home you freeloading Britons who know you can run back to your free UK care when you need it, leave now if you won't stump your full healthcare obligations, and we'll deport you if you don't pay".  It simply had to make a legal requirement for residency there and many Britons would just disappear.  It knew that.  There's a million ways to force people out without deporting them.

 

EDIT - I also think the perception of reciprocity is wrong.   Most of our issues arise because our state is leaving the EU, and we will not be EU citizens.   Most of the issues for EU citizens in the UK arise because the state they live in is leaving the EU, but they are not, they are still EU citizens.  Those are actually very different scenarios - not similar.   There is little scope for "reciprocity" between us and Poles etc in the UK because there's little commonality. 

[sos-the-rope 619]

5 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

Because in the worst nightmare scenario we will be in the same boat as half of TT already are, that we become like the USA, australia etc and need to get a work permit.  And that is assuming total hard brexit.

 

Sure, there will be a few people who lose out. Especially (not not only, I guess) those who have been living below the radar.  But for the majority of us it will be a bit more paperwork, nothing more.

 

Lets’s hope that’s the worst case.

 

and let’s hope there’s a safety net for those caught unawares in any of those “irregular” circumstances.

[sos-the-rope 619]

6 hours ago, swimmer said:

 

No, there is no need to "guess".  I am genuinely surprise so many Britons say they are "waiting".  Nothing to wait for.

 

For most of us, it's pretty clear what will happen to us here and so we can act according to our personal situ.   

 

As for me, I “waited” half a year after my first attempt at applying for citizenship because I was turned away for asking too soon! I had 6 months til I met the residency period requirement. It’s not like I was sitting on my hands!

 

It’s frustratingly close to the wire. If it were up to me I’d happily hand over my UK PP tomorrow and get a German one. I was ready to do that years ago. And I guess I’m one of the luckier U.K. bunch who speak German and have a clean record.

 

i can’t imagine how tough it must be for trailing spouses etc who didn’t even imagine such a thing would be contemplated by our elected leaders.

[swimmer 3,707]

If it is in now at the Parliament (we have the same one), it will come in time .    My whole process took 14 months but the Parliament bit was about 6 months.   (And I would note that "no you cannot submit it before meeting requirements" is another example of no special favours for us - how could we, everyone else would be able to do it whenever they liked as well?).

 

This may sound tough but  this is no time for faint hearts or beating round the bush, and one is not "lucky" to speak German.   It's something we got trained to do, at some point.   People have known about Brexit for 25 months now.   It takes six months to do the integration course and get the B1 pass (which almost everyone does, even the African refugee mothers who not really literate in their native language that I did it with).  Anyone needing that could have finished it 18 months ago in early 2017 - as quite a few Britons made the commitment and did.

 

Same for a "clean record" to a large extent.   Foreigners know how one lives regularly here, the boxes to tick.  It's not a secret, or complex.  And we don't have to be a saint or a millionaire, just demonstrate a few basic things about a stable and sustainable life.

 

Difficult times are the last time to  transfer delivery of one's life outcomes to "luck".  Time to act and make it happen.  Whatever it takes.  

[RedMidge 6,638]

26 minutes ago, sos-the-rope said:

 

Lets’s hope that’s the worst case.

 

and let’s hope there’s a safety net for those caught unawares in any of those “irregular” circumstances.

 

I really do not think anyone could claim to be "Unaware" in this current political climate!  Up to us all to follow and be aware.  Though the amount of posters who wander through life with no idea of   how to move  country still amazes me.

Germany  does not usually do "Irregular"- there are clear regulations and requirements.

[swimmer 3,707]

Right.  There will definitely not be a safety net for the "unware caught in irregular circumstances".   Wish-fulfilment again.

 

That's arguably all of us anyway -  most of us were "unaware" of Brexit when we moved here.  Probably any of the 10 million foreigners can here can claim to be "unaware" of some unexpected aspect of their life that happened since they moved here.  Germany cannot give 10 million individual safety nets.

 

It is also exactly why states lay down clear rules on what living regularly is.  Exactly to protect us when our lives become "irregular".   Those are our "safety net". 

 

They make us have health insurance for our irregular illnesses etc .  They make us register our homes so (inter alia) for irregular evictions and to avoid irregular home life instability.   They try to get us pay into pension schemes and build assert bases so we are not dependent on retirement. 

 

Somewhere like Darmstadt would do whatever it could to support foreigners here in living regularly (help finding a job, learning the language, registering for anything you have not) and responding with strong supportive rhetoric about the evils of insular nationalism as practised by your government (hello, Mr Mayor ).  But what it won't do - cannot do - is make exceptions or give free rides.

 

[Guest]

On 10.7.2018, 06:15:19, RenegadeFurther said:

My permanemt residence is completely linked to the UK being a member of the EU. No UK being in the EU my permanent residency will be void.

But isnt Scotland staying part of the EU? (or at least say they will re-apply to be a part of it)

 

[theGman 3,520]

But surely, other than applying for citizenship, there is nothing that any of us can do to prepare? Nobody knows what is going to happen and therefore there is nothing any of us can do until we do know. I assume either in the months before, the day of, or the weeks following it will become clear what Brexit is/has become and Germany will inform us accordingly what we each need to do. We won't be rounded up the day after and shipped back to the island.

[Starshollow 6,070]

On 2.7.2018, 10:55:00, paulwork said:

It sounds quite bizarre, I know, but if banks / businesses are preparing for a hard brexit, it makes sense for brits to do the same and mitigate any risks NOW that may come later as a result of becoming a 3rd country national in Germany.

 

Ok, we've talked a lot about the citizenship side of brits in DE. But what other precautions would it be wise to take now while living in Germany / or things you should do now, before brexit bites?

 

I was thinking:

 

- Move apartment sooner rather than later

 

- Order replacement bank cards if they are likely to expire in next years (in case you don't get a card with all the symbols / functionalities on it that you have now post-brexit)

 

- Anything else that has an expiry date on it - better to renew now to get the full amount of years validity back on it before brexit?

 

Anything else?

 

Among the anything else issues I would count two issues of more or less immideate concern come March 2019:

 

- insurances that you still have/use that have been set up /issued in the UK. With the Brexit -at least under current negotiations status - the passporting right from UK insurance companies for cross-border business will end. Assuming that many, if not most, will not want to establish a branch for this business in Germany (or Ireland and then passport again into Germany from there), you need to figure out how to replace those insurances with something that will continue to operate

- transfer of company pension capital outside the UK (so-called QROPS-transfers). There has been done a lot of bad with these transfers in the past couple of years and many Expats outside the UK have been tricked, more or less, or were to gullible and fell for heavily overpriced (upfront-commission and ongoing commission/kickbacks amounting often to 14+ % of the transferable capital) so-called offshore pension plans where they then lost a large share of their money by investing into derivatives (autocallable notes) which often ended up with total loss of capital even. 

Having said that - and I am on the board for having criticized this malpractice  for many, many years here on Toytown in the Finance Forum, there can be good reasons to transfer your British-Pound-pension capital from company pension (both defined benefit schemes and defined contributions schemes) out of the UK:

- expected heavy currency volatility over many years to come in the wake of the Brexit (and for pension planning, currency volatility is simply not good) or even, as some fear, serious further devaluation of the GBP

- changes of rules which may make such transfers harder or even impossible in the future after Brexit. For instance: since last year any transfer to a country outside of the EU (offshore plans) in which you are not a resident at the same time will be taxed with 25% penalty charges. Once UK is outside the EU, the same 25% will be levied on German residents who want to transfer to an offshore plan. Only- at least under current legislation, which of course can be altered again for the worse - if you as a German resident transfer your capital to a German pension plan that is listed on the QROPS list will you escape this 25% tax charges. While I much prefer the German pension plans over the vast majority of offshore pension plans, there can be good reasons to choose an offshore solution rather than a German one and amongst the many bad seeds in the offshore business there are a very few well-constructed pension plans with transparent cost structures (which do not pay commissions, btw!!!) and based on passive investment funds like ETFs, that can be a viable alternative to German plans...as long as you do not suffer the 25% tax charges.

 

Cheerio

 

 

PS: here is my latest contribution on QROPS transfers from the Finance Forum for everyone:

 

 

Disclosure: I am a professional advisor licensed in Germany and advertiser here on Toytown.

[optimista 5,934]

5 hours ago, theGman said:

We won't be rounded up the day after and shipped back to the island.

They'd have nowhere to put us. Tents... or people's sheds... or caravans ? Sleeping in shifts like the migrants do in London. Housing shortage and a construction industry dependent on government loans. Yippee. I know why I left three decades back.

[paulwork 731]

Breaking: A No Deal checklist now exists for Brits in France. I'm guessing a Germany one will follow at some point.

 

http://www.remaininfrance.org/no-deal-checklist.html

[john g. 37,776]

Hm, just remembered an American guy a few years ago..he was in his 60s and he phoned me about his status in Germany..needed health insurance but was on a kind of tourist visa but he wanted to stay in Germany, H e was supposed to leave the country but didn´t want to. " my father airlifted stuff to Berlin  and did his hardest to help."

" I ain´t leaving ".

I don´t know what happened to him but I just thought of him.

Might be my personal situation both in Greece- where they don´t care a damn about registration - or Germany, where I´ve been registered since about 1989.

I hope sanity prevails....

[pappnase 2,654]

Looks good Paul. I think lots of the advice on that checklist is applicable whichever EU country you are in, will be interesting to see a German one though as you say.

[RedMidge 6,638]

2 hours ago, paulwork said:

Breaking: A No Deal checklist now exists for Brits in France. I'm guessing a Germany one will follow at some point.

 

http://www.remaininfrance.org/no-deal-checklist.html

Great  information- and a touch of Gallic humour!

[keith2011 2,703]

On 7/16/2018, 3:51:13, swimmer said:

Also, sensible states don't deal in emotive terms like "deportation".   That's the usual Brexiter nonsense.    States are much much more sophisticated and they definitely understand human nature.  It only takes certain rights we had under the EU to dwindle away for many lives to be far less sustainable here - no longer having priority for jobs, the UK taxpayer not paying our healthcare (especially in retirement), less free movement, reduced access to welfare, family not being able to move here or live temporarily when it suits, inability for an EU partner to move here freely, and lots lots more etc.

 

As soon as Spain introduced mandatory healthcare for foreigners in 2012, the number of Britons registered living there fell by 50%.  Spain knew it did not have to actually say "go home you freeloading Britons who know you can run back to your free UK care when you need it, leave now if you won't stump your full healthcare obligations, and we'll deport you if you don't pay".  It simply had to make a legal requirement for residency there and many Britons would just disappear.  It knew that.  There's a million ways to force people out without deporting them.

 

I am a UK citizen resident here in Germany for many years and now retired but the UK taxpayers are sadly but most definitely not paying for my healthcare! I am still required to pay my Krankenkasse a large proportion of my dwindling UK pensions (declining exchange rates since the Brexit vote) to which I made National Insurance and private contributions for over 20 years .

I'm not sure how it worked in Spain but in Germany you must pay for healthcare insurance if you are resident, retired or not.

[swimmer 3,707]

The personal obligation is still there for sure, but we transfer parts to the UK government.   We have to apply though.   It's not automatic and there's quite a lot of anecdotes that Krankenkassen do not really know how it works (or  cynics might think might not bother).  It may not remove all the obligation but it helps.  (And not all of us are in Krankenkassen, I am not).

 

This is an EU process.  Nothing to do with Germany. The UK pays about 500 million Euro a year to other EU states for it.   

 

Quote

According to figures issued to a parliamentary select committee this year, Britain spends £650m reimbursing other EU countries for treating British patients. Of that, about £500m goes on 190,000 registered pensioners, including 70,000 in Spain, 44,000 in Ireland, 43,000 in France and 12,000 in Cyprus.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/31/brexit-healthcare-deal-is-good-news-for-pensioners

 

There's plenty of other threads here about how it works here for the retired.  How we set it up.