Aufenthaltserlaubnis deleted or not?

15 posts in this topic

 

Dear all, 

 

I have been living in Germany since Aug 2009 on different visa statuses. On 25/08/2015, I have been issued with Residence Card as Family member of an EU citizen (5 ABS. 1 LEVEL / EU) which is valid till 28.08.2018. 

I applied for Abmeldung from Germany per email on 07.07.2018 while I was living with my wife in Manchester, United Kingdom. As I have not received any confirmation of Abmeldung per email and also wanted to visit some friends, I travelled to Stuttgart alone to receive my Abmeldebestätigung from a Bürgerbüro on 12.10.2017 and stayed there overnight and travelled back to Manchester, UK on 13.10.2017. 

 

In the period from 07.07.2017 till 01.04.2018, I did not have any registration (Anmeldung) in Germany. 

In the meanwhile, I decided to move back to Germany with my wife again and travelled back to Germany on 30.03.2018 and got myself and my wife (who is a British Citizen) registered in Laufen, Bayern, Germany on 01.04.2018. After few days, I have received a letter from Ausländerbehörde that as I had lived outside Germany since 07.07.2017, my Aufenthaltskarte is not valid anymore and deleted from the system. After 07.07 .2017, I stayed with my wife in the UK and I am also possessing a British EU Residence Card. I provided Ausländerbehörde with proofs that I travelled back to Germany on 12.10.2017 and stayed there for a day. I have airplane tickets and a stamp in my passport as a proof. Also, on 13.10.2017 I received in person my Abmeldebestätigung from a Bürgerbüro in Stuttgart dated 13.10.2017, but they still requiring me to come in the office and provide with a list of documents in order to get a new visa.
 

Questions: 

1. How my Aufenthaltserlaubnis/ residence permit deleted or become invalid when I have not stayed continuously outside Germany for six months? 

According to my understanding of German law, residence permit only becomes invalid when one stays outside Germany for more than 6 months.  

2. If they issue me with a new visa, will the counter of my continuous legal residence in Germany which is already 7 years 10 months till 07.07.2017 become zero in order to apply for permanent residence or German Nationality?

My aim is to apply for a permanent residence and eventually German Nationality soon. 
 

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A non-EU should never do Abmeldung if you do not want your visa to be canceled.  You most probably have to get a new visa and probably start from scratch again.

 

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I don't think visiting Germany for one day resets the clock.  The idea is that you should be a German RESIDENT again to reset the clock. 

 

this does not help now, unfortunately, but normally, if you think you might be living outside of Germany for more than 6 months you can go to the ABH and get permission to do that.  "Permission" in this case means they will extend the time you can reside elsewhere before they revoke your NE.

 

A friend of mine did this with no problem at all.  He never ended up returning to Germany but he could have, with no kerfuffel at all about his NE, but only because he went to the ABH before leaving to get it cleared.

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57 minutes ago, Krieg said:

A non-EU should never do Abmeldung if you do not want your visa to be canceled.  You most probably have to get a new visa and probably start from scratch again.

 

But I am still a family member of an EU citizen and possesses the right of visa at all times during those 6 months also. 

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No, as the family member of a EU citizen, your rights are derived from your spouse. If you leave (with your spouse) and deregister, your visa status is immediately canceled. 

 

As Krieg said, you will now start over from scratch.

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3 hours ago, xkashifx said:

On 25/08/2015, I have been issued with Residence Card as Family member of an EU citizen (5 ABS. 1 LEVEL / EU) which is valid till 28.08.2018. 

I applied for Abmeldung from Germany per email on 07.07.2018 while I was living with my wife in Manchester, United Kingdom. As I have not received any confirmation of Abmeldung per email and also wanted to visit some friends, I travelled to Stuttgart alone to receive my Abmeldebestätigung from a Bürgerbüro on 12.10.2017 and stayed there overnight and travelled back to Manchester, UK on 13.10.2017. 

 

 

First of all, you were technically not supposed to return to Germany alone if your Aufenthaltskarte was no longer valid.

 

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In the period from 07.07.2017 till 01.04.2018, I did not have any registration (Anmeldung) in Germany.

 

You also were not living here, right?

 

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After 07.07 .2017, I stayed with my wife in the UK and I am also possessing a British EU Residence Card. I provided Ausländerbehörde with proofs that I travelled back to Germany on 12.10.2017 and stayed there for a day. I have airplane tickets and a stamp in my passport as a proof. Also, on 13.10.2017 I received in person my Abmeldebestätigung from a Bürgerbüro in Stuttgart dated 13.10.2017, but they still requiring me to come in the office and provide with a list of documents in order to get a new visa.


 

Not a new visa, but rather a new Aufenthaltskarte.

 

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1. How my Aufenthaltserlaubnis/ residence permit deleted or become invalid when I have not stayed continuously outside Germany for six months? 

According to my understanding of German law, residence permit only becomes invalid when one stays outside Germany for more than 6 months. 

 

First of all, under the AufenthG residence permits can also become void when a foreigner aus einem seiner Natur nach nicht vorübergehenden Grunde ausreist.

 

More importantly, you do not fall under the AufenthG, but rather the FreizügG/EU.

 

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My aim is to apply for a permanent residence and eventually German Nationality soon.

 

 It is unlikely that you'll qualify for permanent residency anytime soon. On the other hand, you might be able to have upto 5 years of your previous stay counted towards the 8 you need for citizenship depending on what you were doing here.

 

2 hours ago, Krieg said:

A non-EU should never do Abmeldung if you do not want your visa to be canceled.  You most probably have to get a new visa and probably start from scratch again.

 

Since he and his wife left Germany he was required to abmelden. Furthermore, remaining registered in Germany requires a continued obligation to have comprehensive health insurancea and pay for the GEZ etc. Fake Anmeldungen are not to be recommended.

 

 

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4 hours ago, xkashifx said:

2. If they issue me with a new visa, will the counter of my continuous legal residence in Germany which is already 7 years 10 months till 07.07.2017 become zero in order to apply for permanent residence or German Nationality?

My aim is to apply for a permanent residence and eventually German Nationality soon. 

 

Two or three points you should bear in mind on this aspect of your query.

 

Time spent as a resident in Germany is not necessarilly counted 1:1 when used for qualification for PR or nationality calculations. I'm not an expert in these matters so hopefully TT's well informed @engelchen (eta: oops! cross-posted:)) can verify the details but AFAIR periods spent under language study visas are not counted at all and AFAIK under study visas (at least when studying for a first German degree) are credited at a half real time value, i.e. 36 months in country on study visa = 18 months credit.

 

Additionally, in spite of the Aufenthalts Gesetz being federal law, many of its clauses include delegatory powers to the Länder (regional state) authorities. This is especially relevant in those where a degree of discretionary judgement may be applied according to other elements of an individual applicants' history.

 

Bearing those factors in mind it would behove you when dealing with the ABH to temper any approach based on a 'show me where the law doesn't exclude this' argument with a 'respectful of their infinitely deeper expert knowledge of their speciality field' attitude and a polite request for their help to find a workable solution to your familiy issue.

 

Hinting at difficulties those dam' Brit politicians with their stupid Brexit have caused is more likely to gain sympathy than trying to claim any non-existant rights.

 

2B

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1 hour ago, engelchen said:

 

You also were not living here, right?

 

Yes, I was not living in Germany. 

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1 hour ago, engelchen said:

 

Not a new visa, but rather a new Aufenthaltskarte.

 

Yes, they want me to apply for a new Aufenthaltskarte. 

 

2 hours ago, engelchen said:

More importantly, you do not fall under the AufenthG, but rather the FreizügG/EU.

So, that means that their claim of my Aufenthaltskarte being deleted is false because EU law is supreme. 

 

2 hours ago, engelchen said:

It is unlikely that you'll qualify for permanent residency anytime soon. On the other hand, you might be able to have upto 5 years of your previous stay counted towards the 8 you need for citizenship depending on what you were doing here

So, In this case my previous stay in Germany will not become void and might be considered towards my application for Permanent Residence or German Nationality ?

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2 minutes ago, xkashifx said:

So, that means that their claim of my Aufenthaltskarte being deleted is false because EU law is supreme. 

 

NO! There is nothing to say that after leaving for 9 months that you can just pick up where you left off. The ABH does NOT seem to have made a mistake.

 

2 minutes ago, xkashifx said:

So, In this case my previous stay in Germany will not become void and might be considered towards my application for Permanent Residence or German Nationality ?

 

AFAIK you won't be eligible anytime soon for a permanent residence permit. Whether or not your previous stay will count towards the residence requirements for citizenship depends on what you were doing here.

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51 minutes ago, xkashifx said:

So, In this case my previous stay in Germany will not become void and might be considered towards my application for Permanent Residence or German Nationality ?

Sorry, that's not correct. In calculating the residency requirement for citizenship, they measure the length of your uninterrupted stay in Germany. If your stay is interrupted, the clock gets reset.

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36 minutes ago, xkashifx said:

So, that means that their claim of my Aufenthaltskarte being deleted is false because EU law is supreme. 

 

NO!

It is NOT a false claim and quite frankly it would be extremely foolish to make such a suggestion to any ABH official.

 

6 hours ago, xkashifx said:

On 25/08/2015, I have been issued with Residence Card as Family member of an EU citizen (5 ABS. 1 LEVEL / EU) which is (WAS) valid till 28.08.2018. 

I applied for Abmeldung from Germany per email on 07.07.2018 <-(Back to the future?) while I was living with my wife in Manchester, United Kingdom.

 

The conditions under which your Aufenthaltskärte were issued (egal whether they could have been based on the AufenthG or the FreizügG/EU) had ceased to exist and therefore unless you had obtained the prior approval of your then responsible ABH an automatic deletion of your Aufenthltskärte was inevitable.

 

I suggest you stop wasting your time grasping at straws and start applying a bit of logical thinking by viewing the situation from the point of view of the authorities you are intent on dealing with.

 

SMH

2B

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21 minutes ago, 2B_orNot2B said:

I suggest you stop wasting your time grasping at straws and start applying a bit of logical thinking by viewing the situation from the point of view of the authorities you are intent on dealing with.

 

32 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

Sorry, that's not correct. In calculating the residency requirement for citizenship, they measure the length of your uninterrupted stay in Germany. If your stay is interrupted, the clock gets reset.

 

33 minutes ago, engelchen said:

NO! There is nothing to say that after leaving for 9 months that you can just pick up where you left off. The ABH does NOT seem to have made a mistake.

 

I want to mention here that all this was not deliberate and happened as a result of my own misinterpretation of the law. I always knew that I am going back to Germany to stay there and will continue the process from where I left. By any clause in law, by which the previous period can by counted towards PR or naturalisation?

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What happens to the condition for naturalization of 8 cont. years in Germany -  if you stayed 5 months in between abroad?

 

First of all, under the AufenthG residence permits can also become void when a foreigner aus einem seiner Natur nach nicht vorübergehenden Grunde ausreist.

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