14-yr-old girl murdered by refugee in Wiesbaden

251 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, franklan said:

 

Just to make a statement, the Iraqis will have that court case in their country, and the bloke will be punished by their law. 

If the family is rich which they probably are they can bribe their way out.

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The other aspect of this case is the first rape, of the 11 year old.  I appreciate reporting is abbreviated and possibly selective but the state seems not to have not been pursued on the basis that a traumatised 11 year old rape victim had "insufficient recall" and " there were four men with the same name".

 

That's really apparently the "justice system" for an 11 year old rape victim (or indeed any) it would seem.    It will only pursue rape cases if an 11 year old has confirmed the ID of the man and has photographic recall of what happened.   The rights of the man are clearly totally embedded as the priority in that system.  Females have none.

 

Indeed the opposite.  It's a green light to rape.   You know most victims - especially children - will not be considered "reliable".  (We talked flippantly about the difficulty of "proof" on some other threads this week but here's one of the worst examples).

 

It's really an absolute disgrace.  

 

Also really noticable on the coverage that almost every official and politician opining on this is male.  Almost no woman's voice is being heard.  You'd think the country was 95% male - as bad as the states we deride for not giving women a voice.   That perhaps also needs serious review.   Hesse is my state.   I may well contact them about lack of protection for girls and women.  Clearly it's deficient.

 

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11 minutes ago, swimmer said:

The other aspect of this case is the first rape, of the 11 year old.  I appreciate reporting is abbreviated and possibly selective but the state seems not to have not been pursued on the basis that a traumatised 11 year old rape victim had "insufficient recall" and " there were four men with the same name".

 

That's really apparently the "justice system" for an 11 year old rape victim (or indeed any) it would seem.    It will only pursue rape cases if an 11 year old has confirmed the ID of the man and has photographic recall of what happened.   The rights of the man are clearly totally embedded as the priority in that system.  Females have none.

 

Indeed the opposite.  It's a green light to rape.   You know most victims - especially children - will not be considered "reliable".  (We talked flippantly about the difficulty of "proof" on some other threads this week but here's one of the worst examples).

 

It's really an absolute disgrace.  

 

Also really noticable on the coverage that almost every official and politician opining on this is male.  Almost no woman's voice is being heard.  You'd think the country was 95% male - as bad as the states we deride for not giving women a voice.   That perhaps also needs serious review.   Hesse is my state.   I may well contact them about lack of protection for girls and women.  Clearly it's deficient.

 

You know, I think the woman who is head of government in Berlin would be the best person to address this issue.

 

Better yet, I'm going to re-phrase that: You know, I think the woman who has been head of government in Berlin for 12 years and counting would be the best person to address this issue, given her unparalleled power to get legislation passed. 

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1 minute ago, Conquistador said:

You know, I think the woman who is head of government in Berlin would be the best person to address this issue. 

 

Why? She goes everywhere with bodyguards. She is not in any danger.

 

On the other hand, if she speaks up she has to acknowledge her mistakes...

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There should be a system that does something.  That's the point.

 

The system is organised so a man can rape and they know people can say "oh dear...but, but, but to be fair, what could we have done to protect your daughter from a deviant male... oh dear, let's just let men like that carry on raping and - who knows maybe even murder but, yeh, never mind that, huh, let the suspected child rapist back to the 14 year olds...".

 

As happened here.

 

That's the institutionalised misogyny.  That's exactly what shows there's a humungous problem.

 

And there's a vast volume of evidence that there's a very strong correlation between men who commit extreme violence (including terrorism) and having a past history of violence against women.   It's one of the strongest markers they will go on to do even worse.

 

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Everyone in politics (and perhaps in government altogether) in Germany is afraid to so much as use the toilet unless Merkel approves, but, yeah, I think she should do her job and protect innocents. 

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"Protect innocents". That's rich, given that's what she was trying to do in 2015 and has taken a pounding by the Besorgte Brigade ever since.

 

You guys should organize a moment of silence or something.

 

For the record, I'm against rape and murder. I'm usually opposed to the death penalty, too, but I think this guy deserves to hang for killing a kid.

 

And it's total bullshit how our criminal justice system failed to notice any of the many signs this guy was giving off, and even more bullshit that they managed to just book a flight to Turkey and vanish. Both those failures have to have consequences.

 

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6 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

And it's total bullshit how our criminal justice system failed to notice any of the many signs this guy was giving off

Well, if they had dragged him before the courts on these "minor" earlier offences he'd probably have been let off (= Bewährung).

 

Ther courts are still staffed by the old 68-ers.

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44 minutes ago, swimmer said:

There should be a system that does something.  That's the point.

 

The system is organised so a man can rape and they know people can say "oh dear...but, but, but to be fair, what could we have done to protect your daughter from a deviant male... oh dear, let's just let men like that carry on raping and - who knows maybe even murder but, yeh, never mind that, huh, let the suspected child rapist back to the 14 year olds...".

 

As happened here.

 

That's the institutionalised misogyny.  That's exactly what shows there's a humungous problem.

 

And there's a vast volume of evidence that there's a very strong correlation between men who commit extreme violence (including terrorism) and having a past history of violence against women.   It's one of the strongest markers they will go on to do even worse.

 

 

You offer vague accusations, but no solutions.  Do you have any or are you simply on a male-entitlement rant?

 

If, as you say, the 11 years old girl had 'insufficient recall', that doesn't help, but it's not a lost cause when physical evidence (semen, hairs, etc) can be collected and compared to a possible suspect.  But they need to have a suspect.  In order to collect the suspect's saliva or blood, they must have probable cause to believe Mr A is the suspect to satisfy the state's prosecutor who will get the warrant issued. It does basically come down to the victims or witnesses.  Same as in any crime.  Sex crimes are some of the most difficult to work and solve due to sometimes the lack of potential evidence and the recall of victims and witnesses.  It has absolutely nothing to do with misogyny, biased, male entitlement or lack of female police, prosecutors or judges.   Every crime is this way.  I've yet to hear anyone moan about how fraud cases or burglaries aren't solved due to misogyny. 

It's no different when a victim of rape reports the incident weeks, months or years after the fact.  She might fully well know the perpetrator, but the physical evidence is gone.  It then becomes a matter of only verbal statements (his versus hers).  While this can convict (I've had a few), they are few and far between.

Imagine someone breaks into another's home.  Steals a few small items and leaves.  The owner waits months to report it because he or she knows who did it.  The police only find prints of the homeowner and family.  No one else.   The stolen items are gone - even the suspect sold them or threw them away.  The odds of a conviction are quite small.  Is that male entitlement?  Misogyny?  Nope.  It's called facts.

 

Most police in larger cities in the western world have a sex crimes and crimes against children teams.  The passion these men and women have to solve crimes in their respective areas is incredible.  They work tirelessly on their cases and most seem be driven to solve them and take it personally when they don't.

I worked a rape case in Lisbon in 2006 along side a female Portuguese detective.  We worked together for two months to solve the matter, but it was a weak case. The Portuguese detective told prosecutors she felt based upon the victim and the evidence, there was little that could be done to positively identify, much less convict, the actual perpetrator.  Misogyny?

 

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22 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

"Protect innocents". That's rich, given that's what she was trying to do in 2015 and has taken a pounding by the Besorgte Brigade ever since.

 

You guys should organize a moment of silence or something.

 

For the record, I'm against rape and murder. I'm usually opposed to the death penalty, too, but I think this guy deserves to hang for killing a kid.

 

And it's total bullshit how our criminal justice system failed to notice any of the many signs this guy was giving off, and even more bullshit that they managed to just book a flight to Turkey and vanish. Both those failures have to have consequences.

 

 

Governments have a duty to protect children.  When they fail to protect them, they need to be held accountable as well.  Not only hang this guy but someone else too!

 

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9 minutes ago, HEM said:

Ther courts are still staffed by the old 68-ers.

 

33'er propaganda. The "old 68-ers" are between 70 and 80 years old in 2018. 

 

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Not all 14-year old are killed after they have been raped. In this case the perpetrators called the ambulance:

https://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/article177199262/Harsewinkel-Sechs-Jugendliche-sollen-14-Jaehrige-vergewaltigt-haben.html

 

Six "teenager" raped a 14-year old.

Three were Syrians and three Germans(14-17 years old).

In the comments of the article some right wingers asked, whether the names of the Germans were Ali or Paul.

 

@HEM: People who 1968 were 20 years old are now 70. Definitely retired.

 

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So it seems that the perpetrator (and family) were able to leave despite not having matching documents to passports, because the Police are prevented for doing the correct searches/investigations!  Although in this case it might not have helped, as they fled before he was confirmed to be a suspect .

 

Although I thought that the airlines done a comparison and would refuse travel if they didn't match! 


 

Quote

 

After the murder of Susanna F., the alleged perpetrator had fled to Iraq. At the airport he was not stopped - although in the identity papers a different name than on the ticket. The Federal Police points to legal limits.

 

Despite different names in the identity papers and on the boarding pass, the family was able to leave unhindered - first to Turkey, from there to Iraq. An comparison  of air ticket and passport is not provided, said the federal police. In the context of aviation security, that was "currently not legally possible".

 

 

 

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article177188186/Mordfall-Susanna-F-Bundespolizei-darf-Pass-und-Flugticket-nicht-abgleichen.html

 

 

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1 hour ago, El Jeffo said:

"Protect innocents". That's rich, given that's what she was trying to do in 2015 and has taken a pounding by the Besorgte Brigade ever since.

 

You guys should organize a moment of silence or something.

 

For the record, I'm against rape and murder. I'm usually opposed to the death penalty, too, but I think this guy deserves to hang for killing a kid.

 

And it's total bullshit how our criminal justice system failed to notice any of the many signs this guy was giving off, and even more bullshit that they managed to just book a flight to Turkey and vanish. Both those failures have to have consequences.

 

Yes, Jeffrey, Susanna was an innocent. Would you say that someone who lies about their nationality and/or about getting persecuted in an attempt to get asylum is an "innocent"? Is someone who registers an asylum claim under multiple names and possibly in multiple countries an "innocent"? It's not as if Germany had no previous experience with asylum claimants and had no idea that it wouldn't only be "innocents" claiming asylum in the future (note also the Geneva Convention definition of a refugee). 

 

Any claim that Merkel thought she was just "protecting innocents" when she unilaterally set aside the Dublin Agreement is the underlying bullshit that got us here. That there were numerous other fuckups along the way has just made things worse. Those are her responsibility, a responsibility Frau "Wir Schaffen Das" has attempted to avoid completely. 

 

Incidentally, while Susanna was missing, her mother appealed to Merkel for assistance: https://www.bild.de/regional/frankfurt/mord/sehr-geehrte-frau-merkel-55942866.bild.html

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1 hour ago, dj_jay_smith said:

So it seems that the perpetrator (and family) were able to leave despite not having matching documents to passports, because the Police are prevented for doing the correct searches/investigations!  Although in this case it might not have helped, as they fled before he was confirmed to be a suspect .

 

Although I thought that the airlines done a comparison and would refuse travel if they didn't match! 

 

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article177188186/Mordfall-Susanna-F-Bundespolizei-darf-Pass-und-Flugticket-nicht-abgleichen.html

 

In my experience the border police very rarely checks your boarding pass, but sometimes do. They've done it with me a couple of times. Off course, if a border agent tried to stop me because of a discrepancy I'd certainly challenge her. I think I have the right to leave the country regardless of what it says on my ticket, although I would be understanding of the officer raising an eyebrow and asking some questions.

 

Also in my experience, the airlines always check that the names match (unless it's a Schengen flight) and I won't speculate as to what happened in this instance. We'll probably get more details soon.

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The irony of this incident and all such incidents is that the BIG Left, the greens, the Liberals,  the Women rights activists, the Gay rights activists and the 20,000 anti AFD protestors shouting at Brandenburg gate suddenly vaporise into thin air on knowing the reality. And when some right wing group will use this to ratch up the anti immigrants debate, they will come back full steam ahead.

 

Yes there were x% rapes and murders even before this immigrant issue here in Germany but now we have added another y% to the existing lot. And who bears the brunt? the common man who will then go and vote for a Trump, an AFD or any other right winger who would pretend to be sympathetic and atleast hear them.

 

I feel that the aggrieved family should sue the government because of whom, they have lost their dear one.

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24 minutes ago, RajeshG said:

The irony of this incident and all such incidents is that the BIG Left, the greens, the Liberals,  the Women rights activists, the Gay rights activists and the 20,000 anti AFD protestors shouting at Brandenburg gate suddenly vaporise into thin air on knowing the reality.

Arn't we all suprised!

 

Quote

Yes there were x% rapes and murders even before this immigrant issue here in Germany

That argument is often put forward - gives the impression that "the immegrants should also have their fair share"...

 

Frankly, if Angie hadn't opend the floodgates (or whatever term we want to use) the govt would have been bought down as the SPD will have sided with Greens & Linkies seeing an opportunity to be head of government themselves - and then open the floodgates.  Same result whichever way one turns.

 

Its generaly true the the SPD folks "at ground level" are not at all happy with the influx of migrants.

 

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8 hours ago, msam said:

 

"Honour" killings are murder of a member of one's own family (because they "dishonoured" the family). There was no family involved here

Then why did the entire family flee?  Why didn't they turn him in to police instead?

Did they just hop on the plane without asking?

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8 hours ago, franklan said:

Iraq's prisons aren't really snuck and cosy, and blokes who rape and kill children aren't treated like pop stars, neither by inmates nor the guards.

 

May I also point out that Iraq has the death penalty for murder?

He's being held by the Kurds.  Germany hasn't exactly gone to bat for them during the wars in the Mideast.  In fact, Merkel has spent her time cozying up to the Russians, Syrians and, especially, the Iranians.

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