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Federal Court allows dashcams as evidence

37 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Sir Percy B said:

Likewise with the führerschein, just because you have passed the necessary test it doesn't make you a good driver but it means you are able to drive a vehicle and unfortunately that's just about where it ends with German drivers.

It makes you a pretty decent driver, though, in comparison to many other countries. Exams are pretty strict, it's 45 minutes autobahn, Landstraße and city. In recent years also reaction test is part of the examination: you are supposed to brake to a full stop when the examiner says "stop", the test is at the speed of 30 kmh. You will not pass the exam when you do not do shoulder look and mirror check at each turn or lane change.

 

Germany might not be the best country in the world to drive at, but definitely it is in the top 10 of the safest countries in the world.

 

In other words, first world problems we are discussing here.

 

Quote

It is common place in the UK to give way to drivers, regardless of right of way/Vorfahrt, where circumstances arise but you more or less always receive some form of thank you gesture.

In Italy, too, but otherwise the driving is quite chaotic. It might be worse to join the traffic during holidays in Germany as most drivers ignore you, while in Italy zip merge system works like a charm, but otherwise driving is more comfortable in Germany.

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17 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

In Italy, too, but otherwise the driving is quite chaotic.

 

In Italy there's priority to the right like in any other right-driving country that ratified the Vienna convention on road traffic

 

In the UK the whole concept of priority is the other way round. There is no concept of "having priority", instead there is sometimes "obligation to give way". I'm not sure which is better - I like the continental way in heavy traffic but the UK way otherwise.

 

 

 

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More reasons why you should have a webcam in Russia:

 

I think you can win a Russian driving license at a fun fair or something like that. Must be.

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31 minutes ago, msam said:

 

In Italy there's priority to the right like in any other right-driving country that ratified the Vienna convention on road traffic

 

In the UK the whole concept of priority is the other way round. There is no concept of "having priority", instead there is sometimes "obligation to give way". I'm not sure which is better - I like the continental way in heavy traffic but the UK way otherwise.

 

 

 

It's irrelevant. This rule applies only at quiet resident streets with 30 kmh limit. In the US there is formal priority to the right, but in reality it is "whoever approaches the junction first is the first to leave it". It's even better (reduces unnecessary amount of waiting).

 

I don't understand why this rule is constantly mentioned with reference to accidents.

 

I mentioned Italy  because the situations when you have no legal priority, but due to heavy traffic you are waiting infinitely if you stick to the rules. In this case Reißverschlussverfahren should be applied, but it is a fairly new concept to Germans. In Italy it works like a charm: instead of priority rule the zip merging rule applies, that is you let one car pass then you merge (the driver behind lets you pass).

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45 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

It makes you a pretty decent driver, though, in comparison to many other countries.

 

Who are you trying to convince?

 

It does not make you a decent driver nor a competent driver. By completing the tests it shows only that the passer has the ability to drive a car.

 

47 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

 In recent years also reaction test is part of the examination: you are supposed to brake to a full stop when the examiner says "stop", the test is at the speed of 30 kmh. You will not pass the exam when you do not do shoulder look and mirror check at each turn or lane change.

 

The UK has been doing that since the year dot, the examiner slams the dash board with his clipboard.

 

As for the over the shoulder look that is more of a hindrance than an advantage and better driving skills should be applied by simple use of observation and being aware of ones surrounding.

Likewise on an Autobahn, I have lost count the amount of drivers that swerve all over the road as their trying to look over their should to see if its safe or not to change lanes.

 

Why on earth do they have door mirrors?

 

1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

Germany might not be the best country in the world to drive at, but definitely it is in the top 10 of the safest countries in the world.

 

Normally you're quite reliable on your statistics but as I have mentioned to you before in previous posts, neither your driving or knowledge is something you should be claiming you know all about as it falls short of a lot of elements when it comes to giving advice about the subject.

 

Now back to statistics:

http://blog.esurance.com/road-safety-the-10-safest-and-10-most-dangerous-countries-for-drivers-2/

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-countries-with-the-fewest-car-accidents-in-the-world.html

http://www.dangerousroads.org/rankings23/6070-the-world-s-safest-countries-to-drive.html

https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/photos/the-worlds-safest-and-most-dangerous-countries-to-drive-in/ss-AAgyfqn#image=31

 

None of the above list Germany in the Top 10 but I cannot help but notice that all but 1 list the UK.

 

Now statistically Germany, given its unlimited speed limits on some parts of the Autobahn, is one of the safest places to drive but on the other hand Germany in 2015 had 43 roads deaths per 1 million compared to the UK with 29, even Spain was better with 36.

 

45 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

It's irrelevant. This rule applies only at quiet resident streets with 30 kmh limit.

 

No it doesn't, I can name several roads in Berlin where the speed limit is 50kmh and there's still a right for left junction.

 

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23 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

With the driving in Germany bad enough as it is, my only fear is that this may get worse.

 

With the mentality that the German's have regarding 'Vorhfart' and the pure fact they can't see any further than the end of their bonnet, it could mean an increase in accidents if the use of dashcams becomes widespread. 

I've been using a quite discrete dashcam since 2013.

 

let's not forget how the Germans lie and never admit anything when involved in a car crash. this is what brought us in this situation anyway. let's not forget that the Germans aren't correct people, they just know how to correctly apply various laws and rules to their own benefit.

 

Quote: " Damit hatte die Revision eines Autofahrers aus Sachsen-Anhalt Erfolg. Er wollte seine Unschuld an einem Unfall in Magdeburg anhand der Aufzeichnungen seiner Dashcam beweisen - doch weder das Amts- noch das Landgericht berücksichtigten diese. Die Autos waren innerhalb einer Ortschaft beim Linksabbiegen auf zwei parallel verlaufenden Spuren seitlich zusammengestoßen. Im Streit stand, wer nun seine Spur verlassen hat."

 

Before this federal court's decision, there's been another similar two decisions in 2015 and 2017 from the Nürnberger court which also allowed the use of the video evidence filmed with a dashcam:

 

2017: http://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernberg/olg-nurnberg-lasst-dashcam-als-beweismittel-zu-1.6595913

 

just to see how bad some people can lie:

 

May 2015: http://www.captain-huk.de/urteile/amtsrichterin-des-ag-nuernberg-laesst-dashcam-aufzeichnungen-zum-unfallgeschehen-zu-und-laesst-diese-sachverstaendigerseits-auswerten-und-verurteilt-nach-beweisaufnahme-die-beklagte-vhv-versicherung-u/

 

Nach Durchführung der Beweisaufnahme steht fest, dass der Kläger mit seinem Fahrzeug den rechten Fahrstreifen der Kohlenhofstraße befuhr und dann mit seinem Fahrzeug nach der Ampel diagonal in Richtung Geradeaus/Linksabbiegefahrstreifen lenkte. Das beklagten Fahrzeug bewegte sich hingegen vom mittleren Fahrstreifen rechtsbogenförmig auf den linken Geradeausfahrstreifen.

Dieses Ergebnis steht fest aufgrund der informatorischen Angaben des Klägers, den Angaben der Zeugin K. K. , der Videoaufzeichnung und den Ausführungen des Sachverständigen Dipl. Ing. (FH) M. E. .

Der Vortrag des Beklagten zu 1), dass er vor der Ampel auf die vom Kläger befahrene Fahrspur gewechselt sei und dann im weiteren Verlauf den Geradeausfahrstreifen befahren habe, während der Kläger die Rechtsabbiegespur befahren habe und mit seinem Fahrzeug plötzlich nach links hinüber gekommen sei, hat sich durch die Beweisaufnahme nicht bestätigt.

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23 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

With the driving in Germany bad enough as it is, my only fear is that this may get worse.

 

With the mentality that the German's have regarding 'Vorhfart' and the pure fact they can't see any further than the end of their bonnet, it could mean an increase in accidents if the use of dashcams becomes widespread. 

I've been using a quite discrete dashcam since 2013.

 

let's not forget how the Germans lie and never admit anything when involved in a car crash. this is what brought us in this situation anyway. let's not forget that the Germans aren't correct people, they just know how to correctly apply various laws and rules to their own benefit.

 

Quote: " Damit hatte die Revision eines Autofahrers aus Sachsen-Anhalt Erfolg. Er wollte seine Unschuld an einem Unfall in Magdeburg anhand der Aufzeichnungen seiner Dashcam beweisen - doch weder das Amts- noch das Landgericht berücksichtigten diese. Die Autos waren innerhalb einer Ortschaft beim Linksabbiegen auf zwei parallel verlaufenden Spuren seitlich zusammengestoßen. Im Streit stand, wer nun seine Spur verlassen hat."

 

Before this federal court's decision, there's been another similar two decisions in 2015 and 2017 from the Nürnberger court which also allowed the use of the video evidence filmed with a dashcam:

 

2017: http://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernberg/olg-nurnberg-lasst-dashcam-als-beweismittel-zu-1.6595913

 

just to see how bad these people can lie:

 

May 2015: http://www.captain-huk.de/urteile/amtsrichterin-des-ag-nuernberg-laesst-dashcam-aufzeichnungen-zum-unfallgeschehen-zu-und-laesst-diese-sachverstaendigerseits-auswerten-und-verurteilt-nach-beweisaufnahme-die-beklagte-vhv-versicherung-u/

 

Nach Durchführung der Beweisaufnahme steht fest, dass der Kläger mit seinem Fahrzeug den rechten Fahrstreifen der Kohlenhofstraße befuhr und dann mit seinem Fahrzeug nach der Ampel diagonal in Richtung Geradeaus/Linksabbiegefahrstreifen lenkte. Das beklagten Fahrzeug bewegte sich hingegen vom mittleren Fahrstreifen rechtsbogenförmig auf den linken Geradeausfahrstreifen.

Dieses Ergebnis steht fest aufgrund der informatorischen Angaben des Klägers, den Angaben der Zeugin K. K. , der Videoaufzeichnung und den Ausführungen des Sachverständigen Dipl. Ing. (FH) M. E. .

Der Vortrag des Beklagten zu 1), dass er vor der Ampel auf die vom Kläger befahrene Fahrspur gewechselt sei und dann im weiteren Verlauf den Geradeausfahrstreifen befahren habe, während der Kläger die Rechtsabbiegespur befahren habe und mit seinem Fahrzeug plötzlich nach links hinüber gekommen sei, hat sich durch die Beweisaufnahme nicht bestätigt.

 

what in the world made me click on the "next unread topic" button, I don't know.

Trolley rage @Ikea: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/378150-trolley-rage-ikea/

 

23 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

With the mentality that the German's have regarding 'Vorhfart' and the pure fact they can't see any further than the end of their bonnet, it could mean an increase in accidents if the use of dashcams becomes widespread. 

let's add the end of the shopping trolley to that too!!

 

According to http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/14/trolley_warfare_german_ikea_store/

 

Weekend shoppers can now add trolley rage to the list of reasons to avoid their local IKEA store after an altercation in southeastern Germany ended up with a visit to hospital.

 

The fracas in Eching, on the outskirts of Munich, reported in Bavarian local papers Echinger Zeitung and Merkur began with an argument over which trolley had right of way and ended with police being called from nearby Neufahrn.

 

Two women, one aged 49 and another 18, began shouting and, allegedly, shoving each other, presumably after one failed to follow the arrows painted on the floor to the satisfaction of the other.

 

bloody hell, it's like a madhouse!

 

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17 minutes ago, mannes said:

I've been using a quite discrete dashcam since 2013.

I  have a not so discreet cam system in my Tesla that covers the interior  but also shows a clear view of whats ahead and behind and it is on 24/7. When going through a police control, I simply tell them the camera is recording and ask if they wish me to switch it off. To date, nobody has cared. In fact, one policeman asked me where he could get one and costs etc.

Whether video files would be admissable after an accident is of course another story, but if the car was stolen, I am told they would be used to try and identify the thief.

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15 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

As for the over the shoulder look that is more of a hindrance than an advantage and better driving skills should be applied by simple use of observation and being aware of ones surrounding.

Likewise on an Autobahn, I have lost count the amount of drivers that swerve all over the road as their trying to look over their should to see if its safe or not to change lanes.

 

Why on earth do they have door mirrors?

 

Lucky for you, your car doesn't have a blind spot. Ours does and somehow we manage to look over our shoulders without swerving. It can be done. We always assume that a motorcycle coming from nowhere might be approaching or passing us. They are harder to see in the blind spot.

 

New cars have some kind of alert system on the mirrors when there is something in the blind spot - at least the new Skodas do. I wish we had that.

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7 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Lucky for you, your car doesn't have a blind spot.

 

It's nothing to do with blindspots. It's called driver awareness and observing your surroundings as I mentioned before.

 

What do you think van drivers do? That's not to say all van drivers are good as some are most probably the worst drivers ever but it does demonstrate it's not necessary to look over your shoulder.

 

If there was more emphasis on using your mirrors when driving then there cold definitely be some improvement. They are not for checking your nasal hair of putting on your lipstick.

 

Here's an example, how often have you sat behind cars at traffic lights waiting to turn right, the lights go green and they look over their shoulder, the next car the same, the next car the same, so on and so on. and this just delays everyone. Now all of them know they are turning right so why don't they pay attention to their surroundings, use their mirrors and observe whats around them. It's not rocket science.

 

Likewise on Autobahns, if drivers constantly used their mirrors and observed whats not only in front but whats also behind it would be a lot less stressful for drivers like me that do travel, where permitted, at high speeds. I have lost count the amount of times cars just pull out and some for no reason.

 

As for new technology that is being introduced to new cars do you think that makes a better driver?  Nope, it makes for a lazy incompetent driver who will end up believing that cars can driver on their own. @LeCheese  for example, the Tesla driver who put his car on Autopilot and moved over to the passenger seat.

 

The American motorhome driver who bought a new motor home, set it on cruise control and went to the back to make a coffee, and yes this was true but ironically, only in America, the owner sued the manufacturer as it did not state in the handbook he was not allowed to do this.

 

Continued driver education after passing the test and a limit on PS would be a good start in my opinion.

 

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Had my first accident a couple of years ago after 43 yrs. of driving. Hit someone in the rear. Clearly my fault - no mirrors involved.

 

I don't wear lipstick.

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40 minutes ago, Sir Percy B said:

What do you think van drivers do?

 

From what I've seen, they drive like assholes.

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1 hour ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

 

As for new technology that is being introduced to new cars do you think that makes a better driver?  Nope, it makes for a lazy incompetent driver who will end up believing that cars can driver on their own. @LeCheese  for example, the Tesla driver who put his car on Autopilot and moved over to 

 

 

Yep... saw that one, idiots will be idiots regardless of the technology. For " sensible " drivers though, the technology is a boon. The warning system is nothing short of spooky.

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6 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

As for new technology that is being introduced to new cars do you think that makes a better driver?  Nope, it makes for a lazy incompetent driver who will end up believing that cars can driver on their own. @LeCheese  for example, the Tesla driver who put his car on Autopilot and moved over to the passenger seat.

Talking of technology, A teenager ran out from behind a parked truck today and the tesla tech spotted it and braked hard before I did. Scared the shit out of me and the kid ( who incidentally came out of it with a skinned knee ).

I called the police ( kid slightly injured ) and once I told them I had cam tech in the car, they had a look at it and asked for a copy to show the parents.. no problemo officer, here you go.

 

Still shaking a bit  but no harm no fowl / foul or whatever it is.

 

No smacked fingers for having a cam in car

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15 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

The American motorhome driver who bought a new motor home, set it on cruise control and went to the back to make a coffee, and yes this was true but ironically, only in America, the owner sued the manufacturer as it did not state in the handbook he was not allowed to do this.

 

Oh. My. God. Did you even read the article you link to? Excerpting from the article,

 

Quote

 

Mr. Grazinski sued Winnebago for not advising him in the owner’s manual that he couldn’t actually do this. The jury awarded him $1,750,000 plus a new motor home,” and the company rewrote the manual “in case there were any other complete morons buying their recreational vehicles.”

 

Feeling outraged? Unsure if you are more angry at the “driver,” his lawyer, the jury, the judge or the entire legal system? Feeling sorry for the mistreated Winnebago company and ready to demand “tort reform?”

 

If so, you’ve been had, just like that consumer advocate and millions of people who fall for that story and others like it.

 

No such Winnebago lawsuit ever happened. It’s an urban legend. Yet that and many similarly outrageous and entertaining but fictional accounts of civil courts gone mad often appear together, in e-mail chain letters and such, presented as truth.

 

Those hyping the destructive myth that we are plagued by off-the-wall lawsuits have to love it that people are so gullible.

 

 

 

The entire point of the article is precisely to warn that you should not be fooled by stories of outrageous frivolous lawsuits, as the stories tend to leave out important details or are outright fabricated. Sorry, Sir, but the irony here is simply too funny :D (Except that in U.S. politics, these sorts of stories are used to whip up popular support for "tort reform," a policy typically championed by Republican lawmakers and businesses, which aims to limit the ability of genuine victims of negligence to seek redress through the courts. And that isn't so funny)

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On 16.5.2018, 17:37:57, yourkeau said:

It's irrelevant. This rule applies only at quiet resident streets with 30 kmh limit. In the US there is formal priority to the right, but in reality it is "whoever approaches the junction first is the first to leave it". It's even better (reduces unnecessary amount of waiting).

 

I don't understand why this rule is constantly mentioned with reference to accidents.

 

I mentioned Italy  because the situations when you have no legal priority, but due to heavy traffic you are waiting infinitely if you stick to the rules. In this case Reißverschlussverfahren should be applied, but it is a fairly new concept to Germans. In Italy it works like a charm: instead of priority rule the zip merging rule applies, that is you let one car pass then you merge (the driver behind lets you pass).

 

The US 3 and 4 way stops are formally first come first serve. I think they're a great idea if everyone plays nice and there isn't too much traffic.

 

The rule is often mentioned because it can be surprising if you're not used to it. 20 or even 30km/h driving straight into your side will likely not kill you in a modern car but it can cause a lot of damage. There were only 2 traffic rules I had to get used to when I came to germany: right priority and pedestrians crossing when you're turning. Only the first one is likely to cause accidents (since when you're driving you're supposed to be watching out for pedestrians doing stupid things anyway)

 

In Italy, as in Germany, someone always has legal priority. Reißverschlussverfahren is a very german thing (and not just the word ;)). Legally, there's no such thing in Italy - it's just called being nice. The problem is that many germans need a rule for it, otherwise they would just never let anyone merge

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Following this court verdict from 2018 the first insurance company started giving discounts to dashcam owners.

 

The data is not transfered anywhere, the company only asks for the purchase confirmation of the camera, since it can be used as evidence in court and therefore can save the costs for the insurance.

 

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wirtschaft/auto-versicherer-gibt-rabatte-fuer-dashcam-besitzer,RqIG6gk?fbclid=IwAR15h14BoTwHDC5d1SvFbGQS9LNrkn-Zag40mKw4B0PR2xbbnL6mssSCPJY

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