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Federal Court allows dashcams as evidence

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Dashcams are in general forbidden in Germany is they constitute "illegal video surveillance" unless you're a creative artist filming your journey through amazing German potholes and roadworks (which you of course are, aren't you?)

 

However, if your camera recorded an accident, and the video shows you are not liable, you could not until now use the video in court.

 

That has changed: the federal court BGH said that privacy concerns of one party should be weighted together with investigation/truth concerns of the other party. The other party has the right to sue in court of law, and their interest in this case have more weight than privacy interest of the other party.

 

The court said about "lack of evidence" situation (Beweisnot), that means that classical accident analysis as well as witnesses will still have preference over dashcam.

http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=pm&Datum=2018&Sort=3&nr=83549&pos=2&anz=90

 

 

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Yeah i heard that in radio this morning. To be honest, i did not know that dash cams are prohibited. Im not planning to get one, but i see there has been some common sense within the BGH

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With the driving in Germany bad enough as it is, my only fear is that this may get worse.

 

With the mentality that the German's have regarding 'Vorhfart' and the pure fact they can't see any further than the end of their bonnet, it could mean an increase in accidents if the use of dashcams becomes widespread. 

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My Buddy in the UK has a DBC.. 

3yrs or so ago, he was caught in a "Crash for cash" situation...

He was driving down an empty motorway and was overtaken by a polish registered car.. Car slammed on the brakes.. Boom!

 

In court, he lost as the law in the uk states that as long as the vehicles are moving in a forward direction, the vehicle to the rear is at fault!

 

Crap!

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1 minute ago, SpiderPig said:

My Buddy in the UK has a DBC.. 

3yrs or so ago, he was caught in a "Crash for cash" situation...

He was driving down an empty motorway and was overtaken by a polish registered car.. Car slammed on the brakes.. Boom!

 

In court, he lost as the law in the uk states that as long as the vehicles are moving in a forward direction, the vehicle to the rear is at fault!

 

Crap!

 

I thought in such cases you just tell the insurance company what happened, they will review the footage and if it is suspicious then they involved the Police as it is considered fraud (they are trying to defraud the insurance company, not the driver, so they pursue it).

 

No need for you to fight it yourself, that's for the insurance companies to deal with.

 

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38 minutes ago, Sir Percy B said:

With the driving in Germany bad enough as it is, my only fear is that this may get worse.

 

With the mentality that the German's have regarding 'Vorhfart' and the pure fact they can't see any further than the end of their bonnet, it could mean an increase in accidents if the use of dashcams becomes widespread. 

It's not mentality, it's called "the law".

 

It is correct that most accidents happen due to one car overseeing another car, but what do you suggest? Ignore the Vorfahrt signs and stop at any intersection just in case?

 

The number of accidents is decreasing year after year, there is no reason dashcams can somehow influence it. They will simply reduce the number of liars, that's it.

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7 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

My Buddy in the UK has a DBC.. 

3yrs or so ago, he was caught in a "Crash for cash" situation...

He was driving down an empty motorway and was overtaken by a polish registered car.. Car slammed on the brakes.. Boom!

 

In court, he lost as the law in the uk states that as long as the vehicles are moving in a forward direction, the vehicle to the rear is at fault!

 

Crap!

I guess in Germany that would be 50/50 or 30/70 liability, but with the dashcam the fucker would be criminally liable for endangering the traffic.

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9 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

My Buddy in the UK has a DBC.. 

3yrs or so ago, he was caught in a "Crash for cash" situation...

He was driving down an empty motorway and was overtaken by a polish registered car.. Car slammed on the brakes.. Boom!

 

In court, he lost as the law in the uk states that as long as the vehicles are moving in a forward direction, the vehicle to the rear is at fault!

 

Crap!

Did he have the dashcam at the time or did he get it as a result of the incident, SP?

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Was the camera footage admitted as evidence? Because if it was and clearly showed that the Pole braked for no reason, that's an outrageous ruling.

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Yes... it was admitted in court..

 

It was determined that the Other driver was responsible for the damage... Insurance paid out...

 

He was done for "driving without due care".... ( he rammed the other car)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

It's not mentality, it's called "the law".

 

It is correct that most accidents happen due to one car overseeing another car, but what do you suggest? Ignore the Vorfahrt signs and stop at any intersection just in case?

 

Yes there is the law, but there is common sense.  If you see a 18 wheeler approaching a corner and you see it is not going to break, my common sense tells me that even if I have the right of way, better I break.   The German Vorfahrt mentality is driving straight to the accident because you are correct.   This is pretty common with cyclists, they see the car turning right is not going to stop instead of simply giving up and breaking they accelerate and swerve in front of the car to make it stop.  Then sometimes they break in front of the car to shout at the driver.

 

13 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

The number of accidents is decreasing year after year, there is no reason dashcams can somehow influence it. They will simply reduce the number of liars, that's it.

 

The common problem with dash cams is that bullies love them, so they can intentionally create situations where they make someone lose his patience.

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14 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Yes there is the law, but there is common sense.  If you see a 18 wheeler approaching a corner and you see it is not going to break, my common sense tells me that even if I have the right of way, better I break.   The German Vorfahrt mentality is driving straight to the accident because you are correct.   This is pretty common with cyclists, they see the car turning right is not going to stop instead of simply giving up and breaking they accelerate and swerve in front of the car to make it stop.  Then sometimes they break in front of the car to shout at the driver.

 

 

Yes exactly.  I have told my wife before that it is no good being in the right if you end up in hospital or worse.

 

 

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19 hours ago, yourkeau said:

That has changed: the federal court BGH said that privacy concerns of one party should be weighted together with investigation/truth concerns of the other party. The other party has the right to sue in court of law, and their interest in this case have more weight than privacy interest of the other party.

 

Using dashcams to film permanently while driving is still illegal though. Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

 

57 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

My Pal took the other guy to court for loss of income etc etc...

 

Sadly he lost.

 

48 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

Was the camera footage admitted as evidence? Because if it was and clearly showed that the Pole braked for no reason, that's an outrageous ruling.

 

The rules in the UK are different. It's a very rare occurrance for the driver in front to get any blame at all, let alone all blame. Even if the driver in front braked for no reason the driver behind him should have been keeping enough distance (And I'm not saying this makes sense, but it's the way it is)

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

Yes there is the law, but there is common sense.  If you see a 18 wheeler approaching a corner and you see it is not going to break, my common sense tells me that even if I have the right of way, better I break.   The German Vorfahrt mentality is driving straight to the accident because you are correct.   This is pretty common with cyclists, they see the car turning right is not going to stop instead of simply giving up and breaking they accelerate and swerve in front of the car to make it stop.  Then sometimes they break in front of the car to shout at the driver.

It's not mentality, but rather poor understanding that a truck driver has limited visibility. At least car drivers are taught to keep the distance to the trucks to allow them space for manoeuvre. So, if a cyclist has a car license they cycle with care, if they don't they simply do not understand that they have to be careful.

 

Tja, I grew up in times when truck license was a part of secondary school education. Has never driven a truck afterwards and lost my license after exchange in Germany...

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25 minutes ago, msam said:

The rules in the UK are different. It's a very rare occurrance for the driver in front to get any blame at all, let alone all blame. Even if the driver in front braked for no reason the driver behind him should have been keeping enough distance (And I'm not saying this makes sense, but it's the way it is)

Sounds like the guy roared past him, cut him off (thus depriving him of any chance to keep his distance), and then slammed on the brakes. If the law doesn't allow for that case, the law is wrong.

 

 

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3 hours ago, yourkeau said:

It's not mentality, but rather poor understanding that a truck driver has limited visibility. At least car drivers are taught to keep the distance to the trucks to allow them space for manoeuvre. So, if a cyclist has a car license they cycle with care, if they don't they simply do not understand that they have to be careful.

 

Tja, I grew up in times when truck license was a part of secondary school education. Has never driven a truck afterwards and lost my license after exchange in Germany...

 

I actually think that part of the license driving training should be sitting on different types of cars, like trucks and vans and understanding their visibility limitations.   But this does not have anything to do with the Vorfahrt mentality here.  It is as simple as "because I am right I will just drive straight into the potential accident", it is a very Germany thing.   I find it very strange, because in general plenty of Germans have courtesy when driving compared to other countries, you want to change lane someone will give way, you are coming out of a parking space someone will wait and give you way, etc.   But when it comes to someone not stopping at a Right-Before-Left intersection most will just drive straight into the danger and either forcing the person to stop in a dangerous way or braking in the very last second.

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4 hours ago, yourkeau said:

It's not mentality, it's called "the law".

 

It is correct that most accidents happen due to one car overseeing another car, but what do you suggest? Ignore the Vorfahrt signs and stop at any intersection just in case?

 

The number of accidents is decreasing year after year, there is no reason dashcams can somehow influence it. They will simply reduce the number of liars, that's it.

 

You're being to specific, Vorfahrt doesn't just exist at junctions, or intersections as you say, overall the whole concept of Vorfahrt is abused and as @Krieg mentioned it will allow the bullies or idiots, as in most cases, to flout the rules.

 

The problem is the system itself, let's take a Malermeister for example, once he complete's his studies/ausbildung etc etc, he becomes a Malermeister but that doesn't mean he is a brilliant painter/decorator, this he gains through experience.

 

Likewise with the führerschein, just because you have passed the necessary test it doesn't make you a good driver but it means you are able to drive a vehicle and unfortunately that's just about where it ends with German drivers. Same old, same old, the books say's attitude still applies to most, 'ich habe Vorfahrt', and this is where the, 'learning by doing' goes out the window.

 

It is common place in the UK to give way to drivers, regardless of right of way/Vorfahrt, where circumstances arise but you more or less always receive some form of thank you gesture. Here in Germany, you will will seldom get a flick of the hand, a smile or even eye contact, why? because they believe it's their right of way.

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