Losing Job as a non-EU National

[ExPattheDog 37]

Hey

 

I'm currently working in germany legally for the last 21 months, and hold non-EU citizenship (American). My current work permit which is tied to my employer expires in 2021. For the last 12 months, I have been making over 50k a year and paying in to the mandatory unemployment insurance (I have been paying for the last 21 months, but my salary was lower beforehand). I receive my university degree in May of this year (when I would be working here for almost 24 months or two years), and I have 7 years of professional experience in my field - my last jobs were in management level.

 

I changed jobs a few months ago and the company is a mess... I'm still in a my probation period too so I'm a little worried about the possibility of being out of my job! I have a few questions...

 

1. if I lose my job, how long can I stay in Germany to find a new job? (I hope this is at least 3-6 months...)

2. Can I receive unemployment benefits? (I assume this is a no)

 

Assuming I don't lose my job before May, here are the facts about me:

- American 

- 2 years working in Germany (18 months making 50k+ a year) paying unemployment insurance

- University degree, 7 years professional experience

- Only around 8k in savings (since I think showing proof you can support yourself impacts whether or not you can stay?)

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

[sanjay050284 47]

On 14.3.2018, 21:14:54, ExPattheDog said:

1. if I lose my job, how long can I stay in Germany to find a new job? (I hope this is at least 3-6 months...)

2. Can I receive unemployment benefits? (I assume this is a no)

 

Assuming I don't lose my job before May, here are the facts about me:

- American 

- 2 years working in Germany (18 months making 50k+ a year) paying unemployment insurance

- University degree, 7 years professional experience

- Only around 8k in savings (since I think showing proof you can support yourself impacts whether or not you can stay?)

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

1) Depends on how long you will receive unemployement benefits (+ 3months in Freiburg, not sure how it is at other places)
2) Yes You are eligible for ALG1. You should get it arteast for 6 months. If you had worked earlier and it covers 24 months then for a Year (In my case they took into account my 6 month internship and my part time job as well)

[ExPattheDog 37]

Thanks! What if I get fired before May, and have only worked for 22 months? Will I get ALG1 then? 

2 hours ago, sanjay050284 said:

1) Depends on how long you will receive unemployement benefits (+ 3months in Freiburg, not sure how it is at other places)
2) Yes You are eligible for ALG1. You should get it arteast for 6 months. If you had worked earlier and it covers 24 months then for a Year (In my case they took into account my 6 month internship and my part time job as well)

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, ExPattheDog said:

Thanks! What if I get fired before May, and have only worked for 22 months? Will I get ALG1 then? 

 

 

Yes. ALG1 is an insurance – you pay in, you get out.

 

The minimum 'pay in time' is 12 months, for 6 months of getting s.th out; with 22 months you get 11 months, the max for ppl under 50 years is 12 months anyway. Nevertheless you only get ALG1 as long as you can legally stay in Germany, I'm no expert in this, I'm paging @engelchen therefore.

[ExPattheDog 37]

Thanks. As a non-EU am I legally entitled to stay in Germany for at least 3-6 months to search for a new job? (while receiving ALG1?)

[engelchen 13,040]

12 minutes ago, ExPattheDog said:

Thanks. As a non-EU am I legally entitled to stay in Germany for at least 3-6 months to search for a new job?

 

Blue Card holders are guaranteed a minimum of 3 months to look for another job. It is also possible to change from a Blue Card to a permit to look for a job valid for 6 months (18 c AufenthG ). Both of these options require sufficient funds. 

 

Furthermore, some ABHs will just issue Fiktionsbescheinigungen temporarily extending your current permit for even longer.

 

Quote

Nevertheless you only get ALG1 as long as you can legally stay in Germany, I'm no expert in this, I'm paging @engelchen therefore.

 

The eligibility of foreigners who don't have an open work permit (i.e. Beschäftigung erlaubt / Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet ) is not clear cut. Some Agenturen take the position that foreigners who don't have full labour market access "dem Arbeitsmarkt nicht zur Verfügung stehen".

 

 

 

[ExPattheDog 37]

Thanks! I don’t have a blue card, however, just a normal work permit. 

 

When you say it’s not clear cut if I can get ALG 1, does this mean it depends on the agent I speak with and their mood that day? 

 

Thank you’

[htrap 0]

Hello,

 

I am also going to a similar situation, so any guidance in this matter will be highly appreciable.

 

I have completed my master's from germany in Feb 2018, immediately after that I got a job in a startup company and I am currently on a normal resident permit (not a blue card) which is valid untill March 2023. But, due to insufficient funds of the company I am fired from my company, basically within first 6 months of my work permit visa. 

 

So, now what can I do to extend my work permit or get a job seeker visa? Is it possible for me to get a job seeker visa now? If yes, what is the procedure that I have to follow in order to get the job seeker visa.

 

Thanks in advance!!

[ExPattheDog 37]

On 18/07/2018, 10:40:01, htrap said:

I have completed my master's from germany in Feb 2018, immediately after that I got a job in a startup company and I am currently on a normal resident permit (not a blue card) which is valid untill March 2023. But, due to insufficient funds of the company I am fired from my company, basically within first 6 months of my work permit visa. 

 

Hey! Sorry to hear about your situation.

 

Unfortunately, since you were only employed for 6 months, you are not able to receive ALG1. 

 

Your options are this:

- Apply for a job seekers visa - however, you will only be eligible if you can prove you have enough money (7k ish), health insurance, etc. Requirements here: http://www.germany-visa.org/job-seeker-visa/

- Ask for a fiktionsbescheinigung, while you look for a new job. They might give it to you because you completed your master's here (this is what I recommend the most). Unlike with the job seekers visa, you do not need to show proof of money. You do need health insurance, however - which will be expensive! (around 250 a month). I'm fairly certain, but not entirely sure, you will not be eligible to receive health insurance from the arbeitsamt since you will not be on alg1. Bring the CV, biometric photo, etc. with you when you apply anyway. Also, if you have enough money, its a good idea to bring a bank statement.

 

Make sure you ask your health insurance what your best options are. It also doesn't hurt to shop around. 

 

Good luck!

[ilyann 188]

My personal experience with this is from  a Blue Card. In my case it was a third option where they will give you a paper saying they don't cancel the BK now, but will do it later if I don't find the work. This would be even less paperwork for the ABH then giving a Fiktionsbescheinigung so I assumed this is standard, but YMMV. 

 

 

[Bhuro 0]

HI,

I have completed my master degree in Germany. after that immediately I got a job in a company.  During the probezeit company gave me Kundigung. Actually, I extend my visa on the basis of the company's contract. I have Aufenhaltserlaubnis 18 Abs.4.S.1 and its valid till November-2020. My question is following.

 

1. How long this Aufenhaltstitel valid?

2. Can I eligible for arbeitloss geld?

3.  Is it mandatory to inform regarding unemployment in Auslandbehörde?

4. Can I eligible for 18 months job search visa which normally get the student after study?

 

Thank you in advance and waiting for your kind reply.

[2B_orNot2B 8,451]

3 hours ago, Bhuro said:

I have Aufenhaltserlaubnis 18 Abs.4.S.1 and its valid till November-2020. My question is following.

1. How long this Aufenhaltstitel valid?

2. Can I eligible for arbeitloss geld?

3.  Is it mandatory to inform regarding unemployment in Auslandbehörde?

4. Can I eligible for 18 months job search visa which normally get the student after study?

 

Aufenhaltserlaubnis 18 Abs.4.S.1 = Temporary residence title issued under Section 18 subsection 4 sentence 1 of the AufenthG (Residence Act) which, in the English translation, says;

Quote

(4) A residence title for the purpose of taking up employment pursuant to subsection 2 which requires a vocational qualification may only be issued for employment in an occupation which has been approved by virtue of a statutory instrument in accordance with Section 42.

 

and subsection 2;

Quote

(2) A foreigner may be granted a residence title for the purpose of taking up employment if the Federal Employment Agency has granted approval in accordance with Section 39 or it has been determined by statutory instrument pursuant to Section 42 or by intergovernmental agreement that such employment may be taken up without approval from the Federal Employment Agency. Any restrictions imposed by the Federal Employment Agency in granting approval must be specified in the residence title.

 

Sections 39 and 42 are longer, give details on the federal authorities' labour market interests and also expand on the reporting obligations and responsibilities of foreigners vis-á-vis both the Federal Employment Agency (Bundesagentur für Arbeit or BfA/BA) and the local foreigners authority (Ausländerbehörde or ABH).

 

1. How long this Aufenhaltstitel valid?

All temporary residence permits may be limited (or extended) by the ABH if the conditions under which it was issued change, which means yours should lose its validity long before its current expiry date.

 

2. Can I eligible for arbeitloss geld?

If you have paid 12 months unemployment insurance contributions you may be eligible to apply for contributory unemployment benefits (ALG I). If not then not.

 

Merely by applying for non-contributory unemployment benefit (ALG II) you may invalidate your residence status automatically by default.

 

However you (like everyone) are still legally obligated to inform the BfA as soon (within 3 workdays) as you are made aware you will become unemployed and to register as 'unemployed and seeking work' in person with a copy of your registration (Meldebescheinigung) and your ID (Passport) at your local BfA on the first workday after your employment ends.

 

3. Is it mandatory to inform regarding unemployment in Auslandbehörde?

Yes it is.

 

4. Can I eligible for 18 months job search visa which normally get the student after study?

That option is only available to post graduates during the period before they take up work after completing their studies. You may be eligible to apply for a temporary visa which enables job searching but for a shorter period (6 months with a possible max extension of 6 months) under Section 18c.

 

For details please refer to Act on the Residence, Economic Activity and Integration of Foreigners in the Federal Territory (Residence Act)

 

HTH

2B

 

[Andrae 1]

@2B_orNot2BHello all, 

 

I am in the exact situation. I finished my MA degree, found a job in a start-up/SME right after, applied for work visa, and got fired before the probezeit.

I immediately informed the ABH about what happened and they said I send a new contract once I found a new job.

I luckily found a job in a start-up and I started working immediately. After 1.5 weeks with the new job, I sent a scanned copy of ky contract as instructed by the ABH.  The AbH lady told me I wasn't allowed to work (Strafanzeige) etc. I was unaware that I was not allowed to work. Also because the salary did not reach the expected amount bracket for foreign students with Germab degree. I did not know how much was expected and I am not applying for Blue Card.

My company changed the contract, and provided the necessary documents.

I went to the ABH submitted all documents, and when they called me in, the officer said they couldn't decide and needed to fax my documents to the Federal Employment Agency, and besides they were not sure if the job is "studienadequet". 

And this is where I am worried- any experience with the Federal Employment Agency? Also, I couldn't find any information on the minimum salary bracket. 

 

Any information is appreciated.

[2B_orNot2B 8,451]

7 hours ago, Andrae said:

I luckily found a job in a start-up and I started working immediately. After 1.5 weeks with the new job, I sent a scanned copy of ky contract as instructed by the ABH.  The AbH lady told me I wasn't allowed to work (Strafanzeige) etc. I was unaware that I was not allowed to work.

 

Welcome to Toytown (TT), Andrae

 

Those who have successfully completed a post-graduate course at a German higher education institute are entitled to apply for a one-time job seeking visa which may be valid for up to 18 months. You cannot start work whilst on that visa but, once you have a suitable (compliant with the current Agentur für Arbeit standards for non-EU workers) offer in writing, it should be easy to get that visa replaced by a valid one which does allow you to work here.

 

NB: As soon as employment is taken up that option is permanently voided so, if you start one job and then you or your employer decide it doesn't suit you, you cannot apply for a second try and there is no automatic way of being credited with any balance period for further job seeking. The ABH may (at their discretion!) issue a temporary visa allowing applicants to seek work for up to 6 months. Again, holders of this type of visa are NOT entitled to take up employment without prior clearance of the ABH (and, if the ABH require it, the BfA/AfA).

 

7 hours ago, Andrae said:

I couldn't find any information on the minimum salary bracket. 

 

Any information is appreciated.

 

The BfA is the responsible authority for, and generator of, official German employment market statistics for domestic governmental, EU and international inter-governmental use. The BfA inherited this statutory duty from the Arbeitsamt which had fulfilled it since the early 1950s.

 

The figures and stats are available to the public, albeit the BfA website's UI does predicate a certain degree of patience and determination to find some of them.

 

Many of them are typical of academic statisticians reports which, for the average journo or lay reader, may not be that easy to decipher until one has at least mastered the ILO and BfA vocabulary used in them.

 

Pro tip: - first check the index of each report for the 'Glossar' or 'Glossary' where you'll find the 'fachchinesische' definitions used. It is usually toward the end of the PDFs.

 

They publish monthly stats in multiple languages along with commentaries on regional and national changes to the 'whitelist' (auf deutsch; Positivliste) of jobs considered to be affected by shortages. They also publish detailed info on annual adjustments to such factors as specific ILO job classification numbers, acceptable level and type of qualifications iaw ILO job classifications and variables to income thresholds by region according to dynamic changes in the German market demand and supply situation.

 

Albeit I've not used some of them myself for several years, these links might help you find their latest monthly and annual reports.

 

Labour Market Reports - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <English PDFs

Arbeitsmarktberichte - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <German PDFs

Akademiker - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <Example stats for a specific ILO classification

Fachkräftebedarf und Stellen - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <Skill requirements v job offers

Veröffentlichungen - www.arbeitsagentur.de <Lists of publications

Weisungen Übergreifendes - www.arbeitsagentur.de <Internal instructions - you can search for dynamic changes re these themes there. 

KldB 2010 - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <re ILO job classifications in German officialese - check for the latest year (2018).

 

I suggest you search the BfA website for the 'whitelist_ba015790' PDF which was the June 2018 edition in English. That's the latest one I read but there may be an updated version from December 2018 now.

 

Do pay very close attention to the glossary definitions wrt level of training standards and the notes under each list on their use of underlining and * to denote certain important variations in the criterium.

 

Further info which may be useful to your understanding of your situation can be gained by reviewing the conditions explained in the 'Emploment of Foreign Workers in DE BfA dok_ba014306' PDF

 

You may find them by searching from here> Important Leaflets and Forms Bundesagentur für Arbeit  or here>Brochure and videos on the JOBBÖRSE in different languages

 

Most informative are Admission to the German labour market Bundesagentur für Arbeit  and For people coming from other countries Bundesagentur für Arbeit

 

Further more specific current information, in areas which can be focussed by region, state, industry, etc., can be found on Startseite - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de 

 

Search there for the English versions of Fachkräfteengpassanalyse - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de and 'Analyse des Arbeitsmarktes für Ausländer' as well as reports like 'Labour-Market-Germany-2018', 'Hintergrundinformation - Aktuelle Fachkräfteengpässe'

 

For further details on statutory legal conditions applying to either the visa you hold or wish to apply for look for the relevant (>§§< = Paragraph/s in German) Section/s, (Abs. = Absatz in German) subsection number and (s. = Satz in German) sentence number in the  Act on the Residence, Economic Activity and Integration of Foreigners in the Federal Territory (Residence Act) and the AufenthV - Aufenthaltsverordnung : Residency Ordnance (German) Index for referred conditions and restrictions. The AufenthV (still only in German atm) updates on applicable changes to BfA visa related policy.

 

Not got a clue what type of job/s you are applying for so consequently can't begin to guess whether or not they might be considered 'studienadequät' (rough meaning - directly related to what you studied in Germany) but you may find the discussion on this thread informative. Applied for EU Blue Card, Now "Bundesagentur für Arbeit" - Visas/permits - Toytown Germany

 

ETA: TTers sometimes refer to the Federal Ministry of Employment as the BfA (Bundesagentur für Arbeit) or the AfA (Agentur für Arbeit) both having the identical meaning. Occasionally people refer to their physical offices by the old (pre 2003) designation 'Arbeitsamt' or their current totally laughable misnomer 'Jobcentre'. The office of the BfA to which ABHs nationwide refer questions re employment conditions for non-EU nationals is the ZAV (Zentral Auslands-fach-Vermittelungstelle) which (IIRC) is located in Bonn.

ZAV - Deutsche Version - www.arbeitsagentur.de

 

HTH

 

2B

[Andrae 1]

Thank you for all the information! So much to take in but very helpful. 

Regarding below, I know, I should have just applied for the job seeking visa, but because when I inquired to the ABH in Berlin, and I asked them what visa to apply for, since I already have a job offer and contract, and just waiting for my diploma, the most logical thing to do was to apply for a work permit.

Too late now, but it was a poor decision on my part. I should have just stayed in the job seeking visa.

 

1 hour ago, 2B_orNot2B said:

NB: As soon as employment is taken up that option is permanently voided so, if you start one job and then you or your employer decide it doesn't suit you, you cannot apply for a second try and there is no automatic way of being credited with any balance period for further job seeking. The ABH may (at their discretion!) issue a temporary visa allowing applicants to seek work for up to 6 months. Again, holders of this type of visa are NOT entitled to take up employment without prior clearance of the ABH (and, if the ABH require it, the BfA/AfA).

 

I'll check the links you sent and I will get back once I have heard from the ABH or BfA. 

The waiting is excruciating. :(

 

 

[Andrae 1]

9 hours ago, Andrae said:

1.5

 

[uziel 0]

@2B_orNot2B @engelchen

Here is my situation (not quite the same as the original post): I have a work permit (18 Abs 4 S.1) since May-2017 until May-2020 (Not a BlueCard)
The zusatzblatt says: "Beschäftigung nicht gestattet mit Ausnahme der Tätigkeit als Software Ingenieur. Selbständige Tätigkeit gestattet." So no tied explicit to a company.

I am thinking to quit my job in order to improve my german and look for some other job options
(the start up does not have a very bright future...). I plan to study german for a few months while looking for a job
In your experience:

1. Dou you think I should notify the AuslanderBehorde or the BundesAgentur fur Arbeit about this? Even though I understand I should be able to apply for Airbeitlosengeld  (+2 years as an employee) I am not planning to do so. I have enough savings for several months.

2 . Do you think this would impact a future application of Permanent Residence? (That is my goal and that is why I want to concentrate on getting the B1 german certificate).

[ilyann 188]

On 7/26/2019, 6:01:12, uziel said:

@2B_orNot2B @engelchen

Here is my situation (not quite the same as the original post): I have a work permit (18 Abs 4 S.1) since May-2017 until May-2020 (Not a BlueCard)
The zusatzblatt says: "Beschäftigung nicht gestattet mit Ausnahme der Tätigkeit als Software Ingenieur. Selbständige Tätigkeit gestattet." So no tied explicit to a company.

I am thinking to quit my job in order to improve my german and look for some other job options
(the start up does not have a very bright future...). I plan to study german for a few months while looking for a job
In your experience:

1. Dou you think I should notify the AuslanderBehorde or the BundesAgentur fur Arbeit about this? Even though I understand I should be able to apply for Airbeitlosengeld  (+2 years as an employee) I am not planning to do so. I have enough savings for several months.

2 . Do you think this would impact a future application of Permanent Residence? (That is my goal and that is why I want to concentrate on getting the B1 german certificate).

 

@uziel

 

This thinking – quit my job and look for something better – is something extremely atypical in Germany. It's in most cases advisable to be looking for work while you are still receiving the salary from your current job.

 

Note if your current job goes bankrupt and has to fire you you will get a few months of extra payment, time off to search for work and the unemployment benefits, perhaps including payment for the German courses, if your job search doesn't work out.

 

Of course, it's still your right to quit unilaterally, but I do recommend you ask for advice first.

 

Now to answer the actual questions:

 

1 Yes, of course you should always plan for the worst. After 3 months you will be eligible for the ALG I, shall the need arise.

2 No, they are fine with breaks between the jobs.

[lisa13 12,245]

just to add a couple of points:

 

you should be eligible to switch your permit to a general  "Beschäftigung gestattet" since you have been working for more than 24 months.  Not sure if you care about having that extra flexibility to take any job and not be restricted to software engineering only, but it doesn't hurt to have more work options in a pinch.

 

for a NE if you take time off you will delay the date of your eligibility as you have to have been working and paying into rentenversicherung for 5 years (60 months) in total to qualify (presuming you remain without a bluecard in the meantime).  I don't see how quitting your job to get your B1 certificate now will help you in that respect as you can't apply before 2022 anyway under your current permit.

[fardesignberlin 0]

Hello,

 

I have graduated with an M.A from a German university in July 2017, and immediately in August managed to find a Job that is related to my field of study, were I worked for 20.5 months, then changed my Job  and worked there for 6 months, and unfortunately was let go after the end of Probezeit as some structural changes happened to the company. 

 

• So I worked in total 2 years and a half.
• I have a Work Permit that is not linked to my Employer, but linked to my profession till 2023 (18 Abs 4 S.1)
• Unemployed since December 15 2020
• Applied for Arbeitslosengeld and will receive the benefits under the SGB III rule.
• Applying for Jobs and having initial interviews but because of the holidays, things are a little delayed.

 

My question Is, am I still eligible for applying for the Permanent residency, as I have the requirements to do so, except being currently unemployed and looking for a job ASAP. If I manage to find a Job by January will I be able to apply for a Permanent residency?

 

Appreciate your help,and I hope you all have a great Holiday.

 

I have