Thinking about leaving Germany

[vrod1992 2]

Hello everyone,

 

I know there's a couple of threads regarding this topic but the latest one was almost 6 months old and I did not want to necro it. This topic is not to bash or anything, just my personal opinion.

 

In short summary I am myself in thoughts of leaving Germany. I came here in early 2013 from Denmark so roughly been here for 5 years. In that time I've mostly been working but have also met "my wife to be" (getting married in may). I have come to realize that Germany might not really be where I want to live for the rest of my life. Originally it wasn't my target country but I was offered a good job opportunity there so i took it.

 

Now, there is some things about Germany that I like such as the food, beer, autobahn, low car prices and lower tax than in Denmark. Low prices on food is definitely also a plus!

 

However, there's also a lot of things I don't really find so good, such as the Olympus Mons of Beraucracy. My partner and I moved from one city to another and we had to go to the office obviously, to register the change of address. However, for the cars I had to go the other end of the city to do that. Completely stupid. We also decided to get married (officially) in denmark because we would have to go through a shitload of paperwork in Germany. However in Denmark we fill out a 5 minute form to do the same thing.

 

Working in the IT field, it really annoys me that this country is still in the 90's. My first tax declaration was one sort of a nightmare and very complicated. It's maybe not much the fact that it's not so digital here, more that the german government isn't really planning/wanting to change this.

 

My partner and I do not have any kids yet and I am not sure if I would want to raise them in the german school system as I haven't heard too much good about it (asked coworkers).

 

There's some other things as well (like german humor, how the government works, etc.) that I could go on for hours on but all in all, this has led me to the conclusion that perhaps Germany isn't for me. Of course, as an immigrant I also need to adapt to the culture here but if I have come to the stage where I don't really see a point in doing it, I guess it makes most sense to seek elsewhere?

 

Did any of you here live in germany and then afterwards decide to go back, or are you currently thinking of it? It would be very interesting to hear people's thoughts.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, vrod1992 said:

Did any of you here live in germany and then afterwards decide to go back

 

We lived here a couple of years then moved back to Norway. After a couple of years back in Norwegian bureaucracy, where we kept hitting walls in many aspects of life if you do not fit the average " norwegian couple " template, you are screwed. So we moved back to Germany and never looked back.

 

Norwegian bureaucracy makes German bureaucracy look like a walk in the park frankly in many aspects. 

 

Tax declaration wise, hire a good steuerberater, a good one is worth his or her weight in gold.

 

25 minutes ago, vrod1992 said:

However, for the cars I had to go the other end of the city to do that. Completely stupid.

 

Ermm . try going a few hundred km each way, then come back and tell me about it.

 

TBH, it sounds like you simply want to live somewhere else. Good luck!

[El Jeffo 42,135]

6 minutes ago, LeCheese said:

TBH, it sounds like you simply want to live somewhere else. Good luck!

That's what I was thinking. 5 years in the same place and the same job can start to feel a bit restrictive at your age, especially in an insular city like Düsseldorf.

 

Have you thought about relocating within Germany? If you're in IT there are plenty of markets you can look at - probably a much wider range than in Denmark, too.

 

My wife and I lived in Ludwigshafen, Heidelberg, Lübeck, and Hamburg before moving to Berlin, and she spent a year commuting to Cologne and two years commuting to Hanover after that, but we decided that Berlin was where we wanted to be. 20+ years later, we're still here happily.

 

German bureaucracy is slowly but surely digitizing, by the way, but the pace can seem glacial at times.

[vrod1992 2]

13 minutes ago, LeCheese said:

TBH, it sounds like you simply want to live somewhere else. Good luck!

Yes I have kinda come to that conclusion. Let me elaborate a little more. In Denmark I lived in a city of 7.000 people. I just had to go a 100-150 km with car before I would be in a place where there's literally almost nobody else (sweden for example). Call me a weirdo but I from time to time really enjoy getting away from all the people and just relax on a fishing trip or something like that. Of course I have not visited the entire Rhein-Ruhr area but I would have to go much further to get something like that, especially thinking that the area has over 11m citizens.

 

5 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

That's what I was thinking. 5 years in the same place and the same job can start to feel a bit restrictive at your age, especially in an insular city like Düsseldorf.

 

I did change jobs here in Germany, in fact I started a new one just this year. I really like it, but perhaps rather stupid to change when I a couple of months later, have come to thoughts of leaving the country. I don't want to leave now however. I'd rather plan it out and leave in say 5 years. 

 

7 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

My wife and I lived in Ludwigshafen, Heidelberg, Lübeck, and Hamburg before moving to Berlin

I was in Heidelberg a few times and that does seems like a nice city! It would just make the trip home to the family in Denmark a bit longer.  

[engelchen 13,041]

48 minutes ago, vrod1992 said:

In short summary I am myself in thoughts of leaving Germany. I came here in early 2013 from Denmark so roughly been here for 5 years. In that time I've mostly been working but have also met "my wife to be" (getting married in may).

 

Is your partner German? What does she think about leaving Germany?

 

48 minutes ago, vrod1992 said:

Working in the IT field, it really annoys me that this country is still in the 90's. My first tax declaration was one sort of a nightmare and very complicated. It's maybe not much the fact that it's not so digital here, more that the german government isn't really planning/wanting to change this.

The politicians in Berlin have actually decided to go digital and introduced an "E-Government" law a few years ago. The only problem is that they don't have enough resources nor personnel to implement it.

If you also have a professional interest in this field (and have patience to spare) consider applying for jobs in Berlin to bring the state into the current century.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fraufruit 42,670]

What does your soon-to-be-wife think?

[vrod1992 2]

1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

What does your soon-to-be-wife think?

As a german it doesn't appeal to her very much of course to move away, but she also lived in the US for about 6 years, so she can understand me. Right now she is running a company that she took over from her parents last year, however she doesn't know if she wants to continue doing that.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, vrod1992 said:

Yes I have kinda come to that conclusion. Let me elaborate a little more. In Denmark I lived in a city of 7.000 people. I just had to go a 100-150 km with car before I would be in a place where there's literally almost nobody else (sweden for example). Call me a weirdo but I from time to time really enjoy getting away from all the people and just relax on a fishing trip or something like that.

 

Then move to the North ( if you can find work there ) Uckermark and Mecklenburg Vorpommeren have large areas of next to no people - Uckermark has hundreds fishing lakes all over and is the least populated part of Germany for example.

In addition, Denmark is not that far away compared to where you are now.

The nearest town to where I live has a population of around 2000 &  where I live, the nearest neighbour is a few km away.

The drawback is a conspicuous lack of Industry in large parts of  the area, though depending on your IT field, that may not be a drawback.

 

Either way, all the best with whatever you decide.

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

When I started living and working abroad I always thought I would do it for a few years, then move back to the UK.  But after I went back I discovered that I hated it!  It was not that I yearned for where I was before, so much as to just be out of the UK.  I found that the people appeared different from me, they had different perspectives and ideas than I did.  Of course they had not changed, but I had.

 

And I realised that I did not want to be there anymore and sought to get out as soon as possible, which luckily I did within a few months.

Of course it is strange because the UK will always be my home and I love going back to visit.  And of course being away from family is tough.  But I realised that I had changed and I would not settle back there unless I had to.

 

There are other stores on here of people who felt similar to you, left Germany and then wanted to or did come back.  Even some old colleagues of mine from other countries who moved back said that they regretted it and wished they didn't leave.

 

So basically I would say be careful as the grass is not always greener on the other side.  It sounds like you are not happy, but would you be happier back in Denmark?  Would your wife?  Consider what would you miss of Germany, consider what you like.  Then see what  you don't like and see if you can improve those aspects.

 

If you decide to go back I would suggest a trial.  Go for 6 - 12 months and see where you are happier.

[vrod1992 2]

I would not move back to Denmark. If I was to move in that region, I would probably choose Norway or Sweden. Luckily it's easier for me, since I'm working in the IT field to find jobs in remote areas as mostly, all I need is just an internet connection.

 

It's not urgent and I don't know if moving away is going to be permanent. I just have this opinion if that we never try, we never know. Is it worth staying here where I don't like it? Could be that it changed over time. My partner already said that she doesn't want to live in Berlin so that's a no-go.

[jeremytwo 2,752]

26 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

So basically I would say be careful as the grass is not always greener on the other side.  It sounds like you are not happy, but would you be happier back in Denmark?  Would your wife?  Consider what would you miss of Germany, consider what you like.  Then see what  you don't like and see if you can improve those aspects.

 

I always say the best bits of Germany are the things you can't see. Lower crime, cleaner streets, less utter idiots on the streets, generally healthier populace (always bloody Nordic walking and jogging) and they still have small shops here (the butcher baker and candlestick maker).*

 

 

*oh God I like it here at the moment. What's the matter with me? :)

[fraufruit 42,670]

Just make sure that you and your future wife are on the same page before you marry.

 

I wish you both the very best.

[fraufruit 42,670]

11 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

*oh God I like it here at the moment. What's the matter with me? :)

 

Nothing is the matter. You are just accepting that you have no choices and are making the best of it. That's a good thing.

[vrod1992 2]

12 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Just make sure that you and your future wife are on the same page before you marry.

 

I wish you both the very best.

Absolutely and thank you!

[Arctic Circle 50]

8 minutes ago, vrod1992 said:

It's not urgent and I don't know if moving away is going to be permanent. I just have this opinion if that we never try, we never know. Is it worth staying here where I don't like it? Could be that it changed over time. My partner already said that she doesn't want to live in Berlin so that's a no-go.

 

That's really the key thing here. After 5 years and living in various places all around Germany, changing jobs and even falling in love with one of the locals, no one can say you haven't given Germany a real shot. As a Dane, you have a much better chance to always come back here if you realize you made a mistake than Canadians, Americans, Aussies or any other non-Europeans. Scandinavia is a short flight back to Germany, and hell you can even come back via train if you're a real masochist. 

 

I've read all the leaving Germany threads and it seems to be about a 50/50 split. Those who leave, realize Germany actually wasn't as bad as they thought, and came back ASAP and those who left and never thought twice about it. I've been here a shorter time than you, but I also know in my heart that this isn't the place for me. When you know, you know. I did what some TT'ers suggested and went back home on a long vacation. By the end of the nearly two months, I realized I didn't miss Germany at all, and was dreading coming back. Sure enough, that feeling hasn't changed. Have you left Germany for a long period of time, scouted out the other countries you'd want to live in, see if you miss Germany at all? How often do you visit home?

 

Just make sure you and your future wife are in agreement on such a huge change. My German husband and I discuss this daily, and we research what life would be like for him in my country. Jobs, other expats, integrating, etc. I don't want to drag him away from everything he knows and love just because I'm ready to leave. I'm extremely lucky my husband has fallen in love with my country and the culture, and actually has a good shot at very decent paying jobs in his field in the area we want to live in. He has no problems with English so there's no language barrier to overcome.  But even still, he's not quite ready to leave. Does your fiance speak Swedish or Danish? Is she ready to go to language school if she doesn't? Can her qualifications easily transfer over to your desired country? Does she have a love for the culture up there? Are you willing to visit Germany often so she can see her friends and family? 

 

As an aside, we also got married in Denmark because of the hellish paperwork here. Your country is gorgeous and we love how easy it is to get hitched there . It saved our bacon! 

[vrod1992 2]

My fiance is going to a Danish course every week and she does like all the Nordic countries. We've been there on vacation several times. However, the choice is not limited to the nordic countries.

[RedMidge 6,638]

Well, up here we see many Danish and Swedish visitors. Not far to visit them- ferries, train.

So, best of both worlds!    ( SH used to belong to the Danes!!!)

[HEM 11,164]

6 hours ago, vrod1992 said:

My first tax declaration was one sort of a nightmare and very complicated. It's maybe not much the fact that it's not so digital here, more that the german government isn't really planning/wanting to change this.

nor any other political party.  Its all about jobs - keeping the jobs of the Steuerberater & Finanzbeamter.

[GertyMeTurty 403]

this current topic is playing on my mind. My (now) husband and I lived in Germany for ca. 7 years. We moved to my home country last year in June (out of EU, a long flight away, at great expense). We had wanted to leave Germany forever, and we finally took the plunge and were SO HAPPY to be leaving. Well, we bought a house, got married, and my husband is absolutely struggling for work. We are in a commonwealth country, he speaks fluent, native speaker level, English, is super well educated and qualified (thank you German education system) and yet, he can't get even an interview here. We did our research before we came, and he spoke with employers and there was never a hint he would have difficulty. But unlike Germans, the people here are not direct and it seems can just be overly polite at times. So, all in all, he is miserable. For myself, I hate being back here.  My job is terrible, and I really miss our life in Germany. It also breaks my heart to see my witty, funny, smart and educated husband struggling to get even minimum wage jobs. Though we've got a great house, and the home life is great,  you don't realise how much you need to enjoy, or at least feel valued in, your work, particularly when both he and I spent so many years at University to do what we do. He had his pick of top qualified jobs in his field in Germany, and just nothing here. 

 

The long and short of it is, we miss Germany TERRIBLY and are now looking at ways to come back. I cannot believe that I am saying this now, but we wish we had never left. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and we would not have known how good we had it in Germany if we had not left. But right now it just feels like a very expensive mistake. So we are making contingency plans to come back to Germany as we speak. Maybe something will work out while we make those plans, but ugh. I second the advice above to try it out on a temporary basis for 6 months to a year and then make a decision. 

[vrod1992 2]

I’m sorry to hear that! Both me and my partner are workers and it would be essential for us to also get a job wherever we might move. Possibly we would apply for them before we move. 

 

I hope all the best for you and your husband!