Salary Expectation

102 posts in this topic

26 minutes ago, quattro said:

Guys,

What do you think how easy it is to change the position from a developer to a management position? product owner or project manager.

 

If you worked as a developer arround 7 years, are there any changes that any company pick you to work on a management position? Do I need to have some finished courses as well?

You can either study for it or/and, my advice, try to grow inside your current company.

 

Not everyone is suitable for management, btw. A good manager will easily recognize management skills in a wannabe.

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3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

You are a SW developer and a man of the world. You don't need unions. If things don't work out, just walk out!

 

This would be like that if I was in my 30s and if I had no kids and if I could move around easily.   The point is I have a decently paid job in Berlin and there are not many like that here.   If I walk out of my job I would have to take a big cut, probably 30% in a new job.  I've been involved in work councils and I believe in them and I like to be a Tariff employee.

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1 hour ago, quattro said:

Guys,

What do you think how easy it is to change the position from a developer to a management position? product owner or project manager.

 

If you worked as a developer arround 7 years, are there any changes that any company pick you to work on a management position? Do I need to have some finished courses as well?

Hmm, normally you discuss this with your manager during a (yearly) evaluation and you stipulate a path to reach your desired goals, but it also depends on your management potential like Mike said. You give examples like product owner or project manager, but these are no management positions in my opinion since you have no HR responsibilities in both cases like hiring people, do performance evaluations, etc.

 

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1 hour ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Hmm, normally you discuss this with your manager during a (yearly) evaluation

 

If you would have such a desire to change your position to management but you dont have any experience and skills (only strong programming skills). Would you ask for a salary raise up as well? Or keep one previous which you have received as a developer?

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Well, it would imply a job promotion, wouldn't it? So yes, I would ask for a raise since my responsibilities increase as well, e.g. cost center, budget, employees, etc.

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7 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Well, it would imply a job promotion, wouldn't it? So yes, I would ask for a raise since my responsibilities increase as well, e.g. cost center, budget, employees, etc.

 

From one side that is you who want to change the position by your request (not when the company offers any promotion). 

And that means, since you never worked as a manager you dont have the skills for a moment. Why should company pay you more? Yes, you will have more responsibilities, but as I told before, you dont have skills. In this case you need a supervisor or company should cover some training / courses. 

And I guess it depends on the company as well, if they want to train you and hire a new developer instead of you.

 

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On 29.8.2018, 16:47:22, quattro said:

I am sorry to say, but probably you choose shitty companies. Of course they will pay super low. 

 

 

Nope, that's pretty normal actually. And the lowest offer I got after 5+ years was actually for 32.400 (if anyone wants to see the mail, DM me), so 42K is actually pretty decent.

Also : https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=PHP_Developer/Salary/82adddf8/Berlin

 

I know, your mileage may vary etc. But after ten years in Berlin, thats my experience. I'm glad some earn more, but I don't think it's about poor choice of companies on my part.

 

Found an old thread btw :

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/235745-php-developer-salary/

 

"hi, my wife works in the same areas of php as you mentioned.

She has a masters degree in IT from german uni plus 5 years of experience in the same field.

she earns more or less the same as you mentioned. i know she is underpaid but despite several searches for job outside, she could not get any offer over 42+."

(post is 7 years old, but from Hamburg)

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22 hours ago, vpberlin said:

 

 

Yes, in Berlin too experienced C++ developers could relatively easy get 70k - 80k base salary. 80k - 90k is not uncommon for more senior people. Usually bonus is around 15% but as lisa13 said this one can be tricky and it is important to check the details before signing the contract. I'm not sure about other fields but I would expect that senior back-end developers can expect such salaries.

 

 

Usually the part of the bonus is tied to company achievements and part to personal achievements (some companies just have one of these). Company achievements bonus can be a gamble but usually it is paid (at least a part of it), but one should expect not to get it every couple of years (especially if it is connected to company profitability). Regarding personal achievements, in bigger companies employees usually get marks at the end of the year and there is usually the "standard" one which most people get (let it be 3) which means that employee does his job well. It is very important to check before signing the contract that quoted "personal" bonus is what employees get with mark 3 and not theoretically possible bonus with better marks (1 or 2, which happens very rarely). And if one gets less than 3, it is usually a sign to quit the job.

 

In most companies (that hire C++ developers) nowadays there is also additional stock options (or their equivalents if the company is private).

 

I'm not in IT, but this is how the bonus works at my company. 

 

Also everyone up to a particular salary grade is paid according to the tariff.  Above that salary grade everyone is AT.  There are still fixed pay scales for each salary grade, but they do overlap so someone who has been on a lower salary grade for a long time, can still earn more than someone on the salary grade above.  

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I totally believe the 40k-ish figures in Berlin.  When I was interviewing there 8 or so years ago, they were offering around 50k - 55k with 15 years of experience (c++ with solid architecture skills).  Some of those companies were small, others not so small.  Regardless, the pay was fairly consistent and not very good, especially coming from a true 6 figure job in the US.  Nokia was the only shot I had at getting 60k+ at the time.

 

Berlin was cheap back then so I wasn't overly concerned if I had to accept a salary like that, but if Munich salaries are any indication, pay is not keeping up with the explosion in cost of living (especially around housing).  

 

 

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You can really only go with the stats.   The Berlin FT salary is bang on national average (49k) but fewer people get it and the average income is still about 1500 Euro (which if one was working would represent 36k FTE for typical single male), with one third of the population living off welfare.    Berlin's the most socially unequal place in Germany, a well-connected cohort doing well, rest less so, outside the "velvet rope" and prospects and income can fall back.   

 

The market is improving for sure but it is still nothing remotely of the western tech powerhouse.   And of course the west is featherbedded by rocksolid real wealth relentlessly pumping money into robust R&D in the highest margin industry (space, satellite, software, fintech, auto at al) rather than the more speculative shortterm stuff in lower margin fields that is still sustaining a lot of what Berlin has.  As the cliche goes, Berlin still has not delivered a tech / start up star.    I think you really only have to look at the types of industry to see there will probably be a pay differential.  Same as there is for the others working in them.   Your "start up" in Berlin may well be for a cool industry, but then you come west and the start ups have some collosal grants to deliver next gen space technology.

 

There are only 3-4 net contributor states in Germany, obviously with Bavaria the biggest.  Berlin's a big net recipient.  So this is a bit like going to an average / poor place in the UK and wondering why people don't get paid central London rates, or similar, despite there clearly not being an economy on the same scale that can pay them.     We'd not expect that.    We'd expect the London rate to be more, possibly quite a lot.

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1 hour ago, lisa13 said:

I totally believe the 40k-ish figures in Berlin.  When I was interviewing there 8 or so years ago, they were offering around 50k - 55k with 15 years of experience (c++ with solid architecture skills).  Some of those companies were small, others not so small.  Regardless, the pay was fairly consistent and not very good, especially coming from a true 6 figure job in the US.  Nokia was the only shot I had at getting 60k+ at the time.

 

Berlin was cheap back then so I wasn't overly concerned if I had to accept a salary like that, but if Munich salaries are any indication, pay is not keeping up with the explosion in cost of living (especially around housing).  

 

 

 

Yes, that was the situation then -  I also came to Berlin around that time and my first job was at Nokia (nowadays it is called Here). The salaries are a bit better now and there are more companies but the difference in housing costs between then and now is huge. I really wish I had enough money to buy an apartment then.
But I have to admit I have never encountered (or heard about) Tariff jobs for software developers here in Berlin. 

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Something is wrong with this statistic, maybe it includes all type of jobs, but for IT 35-45K eur brutto is super low (saying for 5 years of experience at least).

I spoke with developers who know Berlin market, they told me it is possible to find a job starting from 50K and up (and that's Berlin).

Of course, keep in mind that on the market right now, there are dosen of crappy companies who doesnt pay. And mostly of them want you to work as a full stack dev hahaa, to reduce their costs. Yes, in normal companies it is not like when you are an universal person and can do everything. That's my experience. 

 

And another thing, as I already mentioned earlier, in Germany IT guys are not well paid, unfortunatelly. And that's sad.

The career end's on 80-90K in Munich, if you want more -> start your business, go to USA or Switzerland. I still have this idea in mind...

 

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But "possible" is not "certain".  Indeed, you could easily that see language as very careful in not being too positive - you might get one, at best.  Someone going to the effort and cost of migration or moving for an average local full time salary might prefer to hear "probably" or "likely" or something a bit less risky and more certain.


We can all tell potential migrants that getting an average salary job in Berlin is "possible".   That's not difficult.   That individual then has to locate those 50k opportunities and sell themselves well enough to get one.   In addition, in lower employment locales like Berlin, competition for such jobs often tend to be harder and people tend to hold on to them longer.  

 

We can say that about many such positions in Berlin.   There are "average paid" English teaching jobs at Universities and such.  They exist.  For sure.   But actually getting one is a different thing.   As your associate says:  "possible".

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Interesting topic, lot more for who in the near future have to decide if it will worth to move in Munich.

 

SALARY EXPECTATIONS

I work in IT, as a SAP technical consultant. "Technical" means that I am not a "business" sap consultant who knows details about business processes in fields like accounting, payroll, order to cash, order to pay, etc etc.

 

"IT job" is a very generic definition. In the IT world, if we just talk about technical/developer roles, there are thousands of different specializations, roles, areas. And that's why in the IT world, assuming the same seniority level, you can have strong differences in salaries. Even just inside the SAP world you can have different salaries according to the SAP area you are specialized.

And last but not least, different companies pay different salaries, especially if they are not consulting company (ok, welcome Mr. Obvious). For what I see looking at job position advertisement, web dev are usually payied below this "ideal" average of this phanto-generic "IT dev" role.

Java dev, althought you can find billion of them on the market, are still payed quite well but even inside Java dev world there are different roles, skillset, specialization.

 

According to my research I did before coming here in Munich, a profile like mine (Senior SAP technical) can have a yearly gross salary between 75k and 85k (included perks if any, excluded bonus/variable). I was contacted by a recruiter for a position offering 75k as high end of the salary fork...I declined immediately. It is too much out of market.

If you have knowledge about new technical fancy stuff of SAP ( for example SAP UI5, better if paired with mobile stuff development) then I saw offers that could reach 90K but just in consultancy company (really a shitty life...at least in my home country...you learn a lot but you don't live a proper decent life).

I think that the reason I managed to got even more of what I asked was exactly this. Together with my historical skillset related to this SAP product I got a junior knowledge about some new fancy technologies, some of them not strictly related to SAP.

On top of this, I was lucky to find a position in a company that it is well known to pay good ( i don't know how much above the average).

So, is it possible to almost touch on or reach or cross (even if for just few kiloeuros) the (in)famous 100K threshold in Munich for an "IT techy" ? I think the answer is "Yes, but it depends"...on many factors. Too many to say "ahhh come on, it is normal, no hassle for an IT dev". And, ok Mr. Obvious is talking again now, this achievement doesn't come for free without busting your own ass. And this can be tiring and stressing.

And all in all, is not that great achievement if you consider the renting cost here in Munich.

 

COST OF LIFE

Only big problem here is the renting. And consequently the cost of apartment if you want to buy one. It destroys your dream to buy a big nice apartment in a nice district of the city. If you are a couple where both works then you should still avoid to dream but you will  have more options when it comes to choosing an accommodation.

For the fresh food (vegetables, fruit, meat, cheese, hams, etc) , I usually go to ALDI. It has a very good quality and it is very cheap compared to edeka/rewe/real, especially if it (ALDI) has local products. Of course you have to pay attention to what you choose and avoid to go late saturday, late friday and monday. I go to REAL or REWE if I just want some decent canned food (beans, etc), wine, pasta.

Dining out I also find quite cheap. I mean, compared to my home country, I spend less here in Germany and in Munich too. The main and unique course is usually quite big and the salad that usually is served as starter does its job. Of course if you go to fancy particular restaurant you can spend much more.

 

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On 18/5/2018, 19:38:53, swimmer said:

The average German full time salary is currently 49,000 Euros.  The highest income state is Hesse where it's over 55,000.  Bavaria is not far behind.    In the past, I've referred to 50k being "entry level" for such graduates here and that was a  long time ago now.   The tech scene has expoded since.

 

On top of this, the popular high tech employer cities in the south (which include ones like Munich and Frankfurt that outsiders might not see as such) are increasingly populated by tech and other professionals on really excellent basics (six figures plus bonus / options etc) 

 

 

3 years ago friends with master we're entering in Kuka with 65k (Ausburg).

Me moving out Italy in 2012 I was offered 66000 gross as BI specialist, for a big company in Bayern area...so 7 years ago. At that time I had 5 years experience...do not look at the official calculation because life in Bayer is really expensive.

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On 10/6/2019, 12:36:57, karmakoma said:

3 years ago friends with master we're entering in Kuka with 65k (Ausburg).

Me moving out Italy in 2012 I was offered 66000 gross as BI specialist, for a big company in Bayern area...so 7 years ago. At that time I had 5 years experience...do not look at the official calculation because life in Bayer is really expensive.

Not realy understood who is BI specialist. 

From what I see and speaking with my friends, it's super hard to reach 70K and up as a developer. (In Munich)

A lot of my skilled friends had interviews but everything stopped at 65K, companies are not willing to pay more. Some of friends were good frontend developers with excelent Angular or React experience. Almost all of them left Germany to their home countries later because of a good oportunities and nice salaries. 

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@quattro, I know a lot of people making more than 70k€. I even know developers making 90k€. And we've paid close to 65k€ for a guy out of uni.

Of course it depends on experience and skill set. Perhaps web development pays less, but I don't have experience in that field.

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