Salary Expectation

102 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, HH_Sailor said:

 

The AT (ie   contract "outside the tarif")  at the multinational where I was 

was explained to me as follows : 

 

Tarif book is around 100 pages long. This is part of the contract I signed (where it says T&C see current Tarifbook).

 

Now if I want AT, I need to specify in the contract all my wishes and whims.

Like overtime (or I simply give it up and negotiate a higher salary to compensate for weekends without pay)

Like sickpay : sure AT get the statutory 6 weeks, but the Tarif goes further and offers a sliding scale leading to 6 months on full pay once you've been there 10 yrs

Like payrises : AT needs to negotiate every year (good luck)...   The Tarif will be negotiated for the 80% of the workforce. They expect at least inflation proof pay.

Like removal costs, pay on public holidays, training, time off for recuperation (Kur), 

etc...etc... 

 

If you get in on a great package, then AT is good for you. I suggest that you need to change jobs 

even within the company to avoid salary stagnation (and of course burnout for all the extra hrs you're expected to perform)

 

Good luck !

 

 

 

I must admit in the company I work for, I have spoken to many people who are on AT contracts and I do not recognize any of that.

 

The way it seems to work, traif get their new pay deal, AT just seems to maintain the differential between traif and AT, ie an automatictic up-lift

 

The company does not seem to expect or demand extra hours of AT workers.

 

When my company, moves AT  people aboard then, they pay   removal costs etc etc training etc etc

 

Not sure about differences in health care provision.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

go on then - whats wrong with the AT structure model ???

 

It is up to you and your negotiations skills and ability to put that in a contract in a way that the company lawyers do not make a party with it in 3 years.    You might end up with your salary getting stuck.   Very old AT contracts could be very good for the employee because employers didn't have any experience with them, for example I've seen AT contracts where the employee can be on sick leave for up to 2 years full paid without the need to produce any medical proof.   But nowadays they are very tight.   You might need to negotiate your salary every year and in most cases with the time you end up just getting the inflation adjustment, or maybe even nothing if you are not in a position to be that important for the company, which you can be now, but you might not be anymore in 5 or 10 years.   And you most probably do not have the legal knowledge to make sure the contract is very tight for you, and most people do not invest the costs of bringing it to a lawyer before signing it, and even if they bring it to a lawyer, one thing is what a lawyer thinks and another thing is what a judge thinks if you have to go to court.

 

And you won't benefit for whatever the union negotiates for the AT employees.   However, you still can be protected by the union with your own contract.

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13 hours ago, TurMech said:

If the table above is correct, then the advantage comes with other advantages than the payment, because salaries look similar to my profession (mechanical engineer). Of course it is a huge advantage to be able to find a job anywhere, anytime, which my profession does not offer, but payment wise i would expect the figures to be higher as far as what i have been hearing is concerned.

 

I am following a youtube channel of a couple, who are software engineers, who quit their jobs and went to the USA, bought a second hand caravan, and travelling from north to the south. When they run out of money, they stop at a caravan park, do some coding work online, make some money and go ahead with their journeys. Amazing profession :).

The table shows medium values throughout Germany. If you factor in the size of the company and location, e.g. in Munich the salaries are 20% higher, then you get different figures. This is explained in the link if you can read German.

 

A ex-colleague of mine went to a trip to Asia for 6 months with his wife. He is a freelance software developer and she is a freelance online marketing chick professional. They were only working when they needed money. They just brought their laptop with them. There are not too many professions where you can do something similar.

 

2 hours ago, Krieg said:

Same here.   I've never seen that bonus structure here.  And as I mentioned before, those "personal" bonus would be very difficult to implement with Tariff contracts.    They would need an ETV (Ergänzungstarifvertrag) which is an extra negotiation on top of the Tariff conditions and it would need to be for the whole company with the same conditions for everyone and approved by the union and work council.  So, they can't be negotiated individually for the "good" programmers.

 

Again, as I mentioned before, the only way to get extra perks is going as AT, which can be a dangerous territory nowadays.

I agree. Bonuses are more company-related, e.g. cash flow position, profit margin, orders on hand. All kind of things where an individual employee has no influence on. But many IT companies are not part of any industry tariff like e.g. Accenture, Google or SAP. 

 

In the Netherlands my variable income was 40% of total and depended on my own personal turnover as a consultant. My fixed part was relatively low. No tariff. At some stage there was so much work because of the conversion from Dutch guilder to Euro (2001-2002), that a Junior Consultant earned more than a Support Manager with 50 employees. Then, the Board stepped in and changed the bonus program for consultants (unilateral decision) in the middle of the fiscal year. The works' council had no power to fight this since there is not something like Mitbestimmung like in Germany. I enjoyed the ride as long as it lasted.

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18 hours ago, lisa13 said:

it doesn't matter - bonuses are always "freiwillig" (at least every one that I've ever seen) and the company is under no obligation to pay them, regardless of whether they are tied to personal performance or not.  That's why they are "bonuses" and not "salary". 

No, if the contract stipulates them as tied to performance, they are directly tied to your performance appraisal. In my case, the company specifies targets every year and which percentage of the bonus each target represents. By the end of the year we do the math. They are obliged to do it. If I remember correctly, they don't call them bonus, they call them something similar to "personal performance part of the salary".

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16 hours ago, sorcerers_apprentice said:

Why aren't more highly skilled IT people on this board freelancing?   

Because there are also serious drawbacks with freelancing.

Example: if you freelance, you have to take private health insurance. If your wife doesn't work and you have 2 kids, that can be hugely expensive.

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2 hours ago, HH_Sailor said:

Now if I want AT, I need to specify in the contract all my wishes and whims.

And what is the problem with that?

 

2 hours ago, HH_Sailor said:

Like overtime (or I simply give it up and negotiate a higher salary to compensate for weekends without pay)

I have that well specified in my contract. In my case, overtime is not paid, but they can't also demand it.

What I think is that people don't bother reading and arguing a contract and accept any shit put in front.

 

2 hours ago, HH_Sailor said:

Like payrises : AT needs to negotiate every year (good luck)...   The Tarif will be negotiated for the 80% of the workforce. They expect at least inflation proof pay.

A SW developer/manager is in high demand right now. If you can't negotiate a raise above inflation and above non-SW workers, you are doing something wrong. Change company if they don't understand it.

 

In my case I've had salary raises well above average in the past 3 years.

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It's not that easy to do it in a foreign country, for various reasons, such as networks to markets, lack of language.  Contrary to common belief, Germany's not a "get by in English" nation.  (Not even only clients, it extends to managing tax affairs and such).

 

In addition, the golden era of freelancing is over for many.   I mentioned on the other thread that the rates people were getting 20 years ago don't exist so much now for many (freelance or employed).   The return's not there and not just in direct $$$.   A couple of years of consulting rates used to pay for your home and, even if it did not, rents were so low as not to think about.   Doing it in London, we'd paid our mortgages on family homes by 35.   Not any more.   Tech hubs are often the most expensive places to live. 

 

A lot of the work I was doing or seeing 15 or 20 years ago is not even done locally of course.  It's itself automated now, or outsourced, done in developing nations. 

 

I am just about to stop freelancing (business, long since gave up the IT consulting).    Not really worth it now.    The other thing is as self-employment is more normal, clients tend to increasingly want to see us as like employees.   To control us more.  I am getting tired of asking to do more process, paperwork, reporting etc.  May as well be employed, or at least contract :rolleyes:.

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2 hours ago, Krieg said:

And you won't benefit for whatever the union negotiates for the AT employees.   However, you still can be protected by the union with your own contract.

You are a SW developer and a man of the world. You don't need unions. If things don't work out, just walk out!

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Just now, swimmer said:

In addition, the golden era of freelancing is over for many, in terms of cash.     I mentioned on the other thread that the rates people were getting 20 years ago don't exist so much now for many (freelance or employed). 

How much do you think an experienced C++ developer makes as freelancer?

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I have absolutely no idea :lol:.    Even when I was in the field, that was not my specialism.   I am not sure anyone knows the pay rate for every job, do they?  I certainly don't.  (Note  the caveat "for many"). 

 

But is it about 200k p.a. (for 200 days)?  That is the typical rate for many freelancers round me now, including our family and associates (albeit likes of me rarely work 200 days).  I was lucky to bed in a family that had these levels set, knew the market :lol:.   And, no, still won't pay for a decent home here in a couple years, it'd make a dent in a decent flat (500k+) at best.  I know a few expert people who can bill 250 or 300 an hour, but it's rare and they do not get 200 days of it and often take on big overhead (like preparation).   

 

But, here's the thing.  That's not much more than a lot of corporate employed people get now, here.   And - yes - bonuses seem increasingly a thing here, albeit word of mouth can be unreliable and it's not clear the basis for paying them etc.    Hence why it's increasingly not worth doing.   

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Just now, swimmer said:

200-220k

What? 

I dont think its possible to get a salary like this. Maybe 120K max.

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On 8/29/2018, 8:55:18, lisa13 said:

From my experience here (knowing many IT workers and managers personally) @The Vindictives take is correct wrt IT salaries.

 

The only person I know making six figures ended up with that by moving onto a department lead role at one of the auto companies.  His salary is far shy of what he'd be paid in the US for a similar role, and he works and travels non stop.  

 

I keep hearing about these 6 figure-ish salaries for devs in munich yet I have never once encountered such a role or employee, so until someone starts posting companies that actually pay this much I'm not a believer.

 

everybody know someone that knows someone that knows someone that earns a lot :) . 

 

i also know some people :D . (betwwen 80 and 120 smth or more in Munich)  sadly (or luckily) i am not one of them ! 

First:from those people ,a percentage were lying about their salaries. was lower than they stated. sometimes much lower even below 60k. 

 

Second: the ones i know are in automotive and in aerospace and in EPO and some consulting/SAP. 

(actually the ones iin EPO are the ones with the highest salary ever!!) best the 100 000 euro brutto anytime! 

 

Third: Half of those people are very unhappy with their jobs. money means more stress and extra hours.

( i am talking about normal people  NOT people that got easy jobs with connections) 

 

Fourth: These are people with many years experience. and all of them got their jobs in the good old days of Munich. 

 

Fifth: the good old times are gone. such salary are more hard to get and they means extreme amounts of stress. 

seen cases of depression, burn out and even suicide!... and of course, the classical, quitting job before they get insane and go for some world travel. 

 

Sixth : i dont know so many people...and the same for all of you here  :D . 

 

Seven: i take the 60 -70 k range anytime vs more with a job that causes insanity! 

 

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31 minutes ago, quattro said:

What? 

I dont think its possible to get a salary like this. Maybe 120K max.

 

the freelancers of all my previous companies were not earning that much. and they said times got difficult now.

they talked about the good old days before. actually none of them survived more than one year. 

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Freelancers are quoted in price per hour, not yearly.

 

From my experience, a C++ freelancer with at least 8 years of experience is charging at least 80€/h but usually 85-90€/h. A very speciallized freelancer can charge over 100€/h.

 

If he works from home, deduct 10€/h.

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On 2/12/2018, 3:38:29, MikeMelga said:

60K seems low for a PHD, although I am not that familiar with Mechatronics branch salaries.

I would aim high and they will probably make you a counter offer.

We've recently had a candidate that asked so few that we got suspicious... he was 10-15% his market price, so we thought that he might not be good.

 

wow, this is somehow upsets me. So let me get this strait,  

 

so you have two PhD's, with the same grade. one ask for 60 k other asks for 70k or 80k.

and the one that asks for 70 k /80k (100 k??) gets the job? 

 

Therefore: your company a more greedier employee (in terms of money, it does not mean he is greedier for work, have seen mayn greedy people in Munich in terms of money,but work they dont give a fuck) 

and your company is paying more for the same "product". 

 

I hate HR because of this!

 

in the HR minds the employee that asks for less does not think he is worthy of that salary. a big mistake. 

 

So if you go to a store. and there are two IDENTICAL products ,but one is more expensive than the other you buy always the most expensive? 

 

Btw, i know plenty of PhDs that start with less than 60 k or around 60k in Munich.

it all depends of many factors: job matches/or does not match their profile (main reason), afraid to ask more, they will not pay more (also main reason), there are too many candidates. etc etc. 

 

and according to many sites 60k can be a standard entry salary, e.g https://gehaltsreporter.de/absolventengehaelter/

 

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Talent management is about the best fit for the job.   10 or 20k is not a material difference in most management decisions these days, in an era of vast cash mountains sloshing around such industries.  

 

Something people should bear in mind perhaps.   There's no need to "low ball" often, to undersell ourself.  If we are a decent fit, we will get that extra 20k, and pay it back in value delivered in no time.  If we are not the right fit, we probably won't get the job just because we offer to work for less (and if we did, we might wonder about the robustness of the decision-making and logic of the organisation that employs us :blink:).

 

I do appoint people (albeit not this field) and that sort of thinking really never comes in.

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We once had a guy who offered to work for free just to get his foot in the door (Database Dev role). We hired him for minimum wage... what a mistake that was, he was useless. 

 

The question I've often in an interview been asked is what I am being paid at my current job, which I've always lied about. Do they ask for proof in Germany? eg payslips or something

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Guys,

What do you think how easy it is to change the position from a developer to a management position? product owner or project manager.

 

If you worked as a developer arround 7 years, are there any changes that any company pick you to work on a management position? Do I need to have some finished courses as well?

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1 hour ago, esqualidus said:

Second: the ones i know are in automotive and in aerospace and in EPO and some consulting/SAP. 

(actually the ones in EPO are the ones with the highest salary ever!!) best the 100 000 euro brutto anytime! 

EPO: Do you specifically mean IT people or in general? The best IT people you will definitely not find in a highly bureaucratic semi-governmental organisation like EPO, where you need to wait for your turn to make a career. Also, in recent years there were 4-5 suicides within the EPO which was all over the news. The previous CEO was a French tyrant.

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1 hour ago, esqualidus said:

so you have two PhD's, with the same grade. one ask for 60 k other asks for 70k or 80k.

and the one that asks for 70 k /80k (100 k??) gets the job? 

Don't oversimplify it.

 

1 hour ago, esqualidus said:

 

Therefore: your company a more greedier employee (in terms of money, it does not mean he is greedier for work, have seen mayn greedy people in Munich in terms of money,but work they dont give a fuck) 

and your company is paying more for the same "product". 

Not greedier. I could call it ambitious or more in touch with reality. But actually the main reason is that a guy asking too few could be hiding big faults.

 

1 hour ago, esqualidus said:

 

I hate HR because of this!

 

in the HR minds the employee that asks for less does not think he is worthy of that salary. a big mistake. 

Bear in mind: the decision is a collection of impressions that we get from the interview. We also had guys that were asking too few and in the end they got the job, plus more salary than they asked for!

 

When the decision is hanging on a balance, any small detail can decide. And I can tell you that a high salary request is not a major decision point. But the opposite can be.

 

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