Salary Expectation

102 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, Illic said:

 

Must be your location that makes you so well-paid. In Berlin, as a  web developer with >5 years experience, the upper limit is pretty much 42K. And thats for fluent german speakers who work full-stack.

 

 

Is your > the wrong way around?  Id expect a decent FE dev with over 5 years experience to be able to earn quite a bit more than 42k  Especially if "web developer" includes some javascript skills.

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My hourly rate as a Junior Consultant for a Dutch ERP system was €137.50 in 1999, €1100 per day (we already communicated everything in € back then, so that customers got used to the €).  Eat your hart out !! Millennium bug as driver. My km rate was €0,70, so when I arrived the CEO of a customer ran out the building and thought I came in a Ferrari. No, just a VW Golf :). Job interviews in an air balloon or at the car dealer (after successful interviews and tests, you could pick your company car already). Crazy times.

 

A few years ago SAP wanted to get rid of older employees (>50) and offered a golden handshake program in Walldorf. Far more employees responded to this offer than expected and SAP had to pay millions more than budgeted. Some employees walked away with >€300K. No need to feel sorry for SAP boys and girls.

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3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Regarding bonus, you can easily get between 1-2 salaries, so that would push you beyond 100k€. In fact, 85k€ +2 salary bonus will get you 100k€-

 

In all the Tariff contracts I've had (we've moved around 4 IIRC) the bonuses were never real bonuses, they were all part of the whole brutto yearly salary (85k in your example).   For example for some years we had Christmas and holidays "bonus", 0.5 for Christmas and 1 for holidays, so our salary was described as 13.5 salaries.   Then we moved to another tariff with no bonuses, so down to 12 salaries but everything was recalculated that at the same we get the same money, so the monthly income was higher.  Now we are back to having only Christmas bonus, everything recalculated again.

 

I think the only people who get real bonuses are the ATs (people that are out of the tariff contracts).    But I've never found attractive the AT contracts, specially nowadays.

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1 hour ago, lisa13 said:

I know a couple of people who got completely screwed on pay because they a) didn't understand that the "salary" offered in a verbal discussion wasn't really the base salary and

If you accept an offer without reading a contract, sorry, but you deserve being screwed.

 

1 hour ago, lisa13 said:

 

b ) the employer played a lot of really shitty games around bonuses - essentially including x% bonus in the contract but they never paid that much in practice to any employee (as they could wheedle out of it using the fine print in the contract).  My first job here, they had an even more evil game - management was not allowed to pay out 100% of all bonuses - they had to keep it below 80% overall.  So if you got 100% they had to take something out of someone else's bonus.  Sick, sick games.

Are you talking about personal or company bonus? I guess you are talking about personal bonus. When you sign up, you must also accept that personal bonus is not guaranteed to be 100%.

 

1 hour ago, lisa13 said:

 

But again, these anecdotal "I know a guy who..." doesn't really tell us anything wrt where to find those salaries.  I'm not saying it's not possible to get paid that much, but the fact that we only hear of these singular magical unicorns second or third hand...it's NOT common.  That was my point.  if a company overall pays much better, I want to hear about that. 

I can't name companies here and I know for a fact some guys making more than 85k€, which can put you up to 100k€ with 2x salary bonus. And I know a few more closer to 90K€, but then you are talking about SW gurus.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

In all the Tariff contracts I've had (we've moved around 4 IIRC) the bonuses were never real bonuses, they were all part of the whole brutto yearly salary (85k in your example).   For example for some years we had Christmas and holidays "bonus", 0.5 for Christmas and 1 for holidays, so our salary was described as 13.5 salaries.   Then we moved to another tariff with no bonuses, so down to 12 salaries but everything was recalculated that at the same we get the same money, so the monthly income was higher.  Now we are back to having only Christmas bonus, everything recalculated again.

 

I think the only people who get real bonuses are the ATs (people that are out of the tariff contracts).    But I've never found attractive the AT contracts, specially nowadays.

Huh?? Aren't you mixing up something? Or are you thinking of personal bonus? I'm talking about company bonus.

It's very simple:

1) You receive the agreed salary (let's say 12.000€ brutto), divided by 12, each month. Let's say 1000€ brutto.

2) at the end of the year, your company decides to pay 2 months of salary. So you get 2000€ more.

3) next year the company lost money, so you still receive 1000€ per month, but you get no money at the end of the year

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3 hours ago, LukeSkywalker said:

I know some senior SAP consultants on €90K per year in Munich. The consultancy manager, part of middle management, earns above €100K. Of course. I already mentioned that before, but consultancy is one of the best paid disciplines in IT: they earn their own salary back for the company by billing their hours to customers.

SAP is a different level. Put 15%-20% more for SAP developers. Not even talking about consultants, but regular developers.

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13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

SAP is a different level. Put 15%-20% more for SAP developers. Not even talking about consultants, but regular developers.

Yes, I know a very experienced Dutch freelance ABAP-programmer (SAP programming language), who earned in the region of €150K per year. Complex projects like integrating half a dozen hospitals with different platforms. 

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36 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

If you accept an offer without reading a contract, sorry, but you deserve being screwed.

 

no, the first one got "screwed" because he made a lot of plans around the verbal offer, and when he got the contract, saw that what he was offered as "salary", German style, was not salary at all, but a collection of various types of payments he might or might not get, so he had to turn it down. 

 

the one who was cited bonus figures the company never, ever intended to pay...how do you sniff those out, hm?

 

36 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Are you talking about personal or company bonus? I guess you are talking about personal bonus. When you sign up, you must also accept that personal bonus is not guaranteed to be 100%.

 

it doesn't matter - bonuses are always "freiwillig" (at least every one that I've ever seen) and the company is under no obligation to pay them, regardless of whether they are tied to personal performance or not.  That's why they are "bonuses" and not "salary". 

 

I also think you are overlooking the bigger point which is that a personal bonus is often tied to personal performance, but playing a game where management can't give everyone 100% of their bonus, regardless of whether everyone met all performance goals...you see the problem there I imagine.  Again, not something you can suss out before accepting an offer.  It's dirty yet it happens - worse, a lot of managers think this is a great way to "motivate" staff ;)

 

overall a bonus is fine...provided you assume you'll never get it. 

 

the idea that you "can" make x amount with bonuses is exactly what most companies pitch, but if it's not salary, it's really unwise to count on it.

 

ERGO:  this concept that it's possible for devs to make 6 figures when you factor in 2 months bonus is...not substantial.  again, 6 figures is possible but not at all common.  not even with bonuses

 

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1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

Must be your location that makes you so well-paid. In Berlin, as a  web developer with >5 years experience, the upper limit is pretty much 42K

I am sorry to say, but probably you choose shitty companies. Of course they will pay super low. 

 

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Here is a recent study (German only) about IT Salaries in Germany:

https://www.gehalt.de/news/it-studie-2018

 

Shown salaries are medium values. Webdesígn- and development, user support and system admin on the bottom line, but apparently SAP-consultancy better paid than SAP-development. Berlin is not listed as an IT city, haha. IT Security is best paid, better than management.

 

 

Capture_II.JPG

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Yes, speaking from one of the biggest tech hubs, my perception is that - security is where the money is.   Frankfurt for example is rarely viewed from outside as a tech centre but it very much is now (while South Hesse always was of course).  When we see industry in the local media here, it is invariably tech now.  (Banking? Huh, what's that? Although of course FinTech is at the heart of much).   Web design and programming has become more of a commodity skill, as was invariably predicted when it was starting out.   It was known that the premium rates for then scarce skills in early tech iterations would not last forever.

 

The other key point to bear in mind is that we are in a two-tier market.  The established professonal employee of long standing is probably getting pay and conditions that are simply no longer on offer to new entrants and career paths are slower.  So when you hear locals talking about their great deal, it is true for them, but won't be on offer now.   (In many areas, not only IT).    I did IT PM in the late 90s aged 30, and I was on more than 72k then, never mind almost 2 decades later.

 

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1 hour ago, quattro said:

I am sorry to say, but probably you choose shitty companies. Of course they will pay super low. 

 

 

I dont know why your post has a quote of me, it was Illic who wrote that.  And I agree, if a good dev is only earning 42k after 5 years then its time to talk to the boss.

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3 hours ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Here is a recent study (German only) about IT Salaries in Germany:

https://www.gehalt.de/news/it-studie-2018

 

Shown salaries are medium values. Webdesígn- and development, user support and system admin on the bottom line, but apparently SAP-consultancy better paid than SAP-development. Berlin is not listed as an IT city, haha. IT Security is best paid, better than management.

 

 

Capture_II.JPG

 

This looks very interesting. I am being constantly told that IT people can find good jobs anywhere, at any time they want, with very high salaries, and without the need of German language knowledge. 

 

Moreover, i am advised to change sectors to software development even after 35 years of age, it is said that it is feasible.

 

If the table above is correct, then the advantage comes with other advantages than the payment, because salaries look similar to my profession (mechanical engineer). Of course it is a huge advantage to be able to find a job anywhere, anytime, which my profession does not offer, but payment wise i would expect the figures to be higher as far as what i have been hearing is concerned.

 

I am following a youtube channel of a couple, who are software engineers, who quit their jobs and went to the USA, bought a second hand caravan, and travelling from north to the south. When they run out of money, they stop at a caravan park, do some coding work online, make some money and go ahead with their journeys. Amazing profession :).

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7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I know a couple of developers in different companies doing around 90k€. Mostly automotive, but we are talking about top C++ developers,  with +15 years of experience, kind of SW gurus.

 

 

Yes, in Berlin too experienced C++ developers could relatively easy get 70k - 80k base salary. 80k - 90k is not uncommon for more senior people. Usually bonus is around 15% but as lisa13 said this one can be tricky and it is important to check the details before signing the contract. I'm not sure about other fields but I would expect that senior back-end developers can expect such salaries.

 

5 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

I know a couple of people who got completely screwed on pay because they a) didn't understand that the "salary" offered in a verbal discussion wasn't really the base salary and b ) the employer played a lot of really shitty games around bonuses - essentially including x% bonus in the contract but they never paid that much in practice to any employee (as they could wheedle out of it using the fine print in the contract).  My first job here, they had an even more evil game - management was not allowed to pay out 100% of all bonuses - they had to keep it below 80% overall.  So if you got 100% they had to take something out of someone else's bonus.  Sick, sick games.

 

 

Usually the part of the bonus is tied to company achievements and part to personal achievements (some companies just have one of these). Company achievements bonus can be a gamble but usually it is paid (at least a part of it), but one should expect not to get it every couple of years (especially if it is connected to company profitability). Regarding personal achievements, in bigger companies employees usually get marks at the end of the year and there is usually the "standard" one which most people get (let it be 3) which means that employee does his job well. It is very important to check before signing the contract that quoted "personal" bonus is what employees get with mark 3 and not theoretically possible bonus with better marks (1 or 2, which happens very rarely). And if one gets less than 3, it is usually a sign to quit the job.

 

In most companies (that hire C++ developers) nowadays there is also additional stock options (or their equivalents if the company is private).

 

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I'm a C++ dev and have never encountered a bonus structure (even second or third hand) like the one you describe in Germany.  Saying "usually" is...usual for you maybe?  Usual for Berlin these days? No idea.  In the US this is pretty standard for larger companies that offer profit sharing plans, but bonuses still run the gamut.

 

I'd stick with "it depends on the company", and maybe the region.  

 

But anyway, all of this discussion is rather pointless as your earning potential boils down to your skills, they type of company you prefer to work in, the type of company that will find you and your skills attractive, what you ask for and what you are subsequently offered.  That's it.

 

 

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10 hours ago, lisa13 said:

I'm a C++ dev and have never encountered a bonus structure (even second or third hand) like the one you describe in Germany.  Saying "usually" is...usual for you maybe?  Usual for Berlin these days? No idea.  In the US this is pretty standard for larger companies that offer profit sharing plans, but bonuses still run the gamut.

 

I'd stick with "it depends on the company", and maybe the region.  

 

But anyway, all of this discussion is rather pointless as your earning potential boils down to your skills, they type of company you prefer to work in, the type of company that will find you and your skills attractive, what you ask for and what you are subsequently offered.  That's it.

 

Same here.   I've never seen that bonus structure here.  And as I mentioned before, those "personal" bonus would be very difficult to implement with Tariff contracts.    They would need an ETV (Ergänzungstarifvertrag) which is an extra negotiation on top of the Tariff conditions and it would need to be for the whole company with the same conditions for everyone and approved by the union and work council.  So, they can't be negotiated individually for the "good" programmers.

 

Again, as I mentioned before, the only way to get extra perks is going as AT, which can be a dangerous territory nowadays.

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17 minutes ago, yesterday said:

go on then - whats wrong with the AT structure model ???

 

The AT (ie   contract "outside the tarif")  at the multinational where I was 

was explained to me as follows : 

 

Tarif book is around 100 pages long. This is part of the contract I signed (where it says T&C see current Tarifbook).

 

Now if I want AT, I need to specify in the contract all my wishes and whims.

Like overtime (or I simply give it up and negotiate a higher salary to compensate for weekends without pay)

Like sickpay : sure AT get the statutory 6 weeks, but the Tarif goes further and offers a sliding scale leading to 6 months on full pay once you've been there 10 yrs

Like payrises : AT needs to negotiate every year (good luck)....   The Tarif will be negotiated for the 80% of the workforce. They expect at least inflation proof pay.

Like removal costs, pay on public holidays, training, time off for recuperation (Kur), 

etc...etc... 

 

If you get in on a great package, then AT is good for you. I suggest that you need to change jobs 

even within the company to avoid salary stagnation (and of course burnout for all the extra hrs you're expected to perform)

 

Good luck !

 

 

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