How to separate and maybe divorce

149 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, catjones said:

 

Grow up, please.  Obviously, you've never flown or taken a train.  "Kidnapping"?  Hysterical much?  My only disgust with myself is replying to your ludicrous remarks.

 

 

And, just exactly what would that look like?  Like a hall pass?  A note from your doctor?  You two live in a world of made up laws with no basis in reality or logic.

 

Actually.. you need to go and check your facts before making such comment.

 

I have Joint custody of my daughter, BUT the mother refuses to write a note to say that she agrees for her to leave the country.

 

I have also never signed a letter to allow my ex to take my daughter out of the country... but that hasnt stopped her mother doing so...   

 

Just 3 weeks ago, one of my neighbours booked a weeks holiday to Tenerife... The same evening, he was sat with me in my living room... he was refused permission to leave DE as he didnt have a letter from the childs mother to confirm...   He had flown often with his son and no letter, but this time Mr Bordercontrol asked!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

Actually.. you need to go and check your facts before making such comment.

He is correct.

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9 hours ago, catjones said:

And, just exactly what would that look like?  Like a hall pass?  A note from your doctor?  You two live in a world of made up laws with no basis in reality or logic.

 

We dont make the rules, nor do we necessarily agree with them (not having children with an estranged partner, I I dont really have standing one way or the other).  But the facts are as I and others have stated, that you dont believe us doesnt actually change them.

 

That you for some reason feel in a position to ridicule engelchen (when she is right no less) on such legal issues is low.  You know full well that she is not only incredibly well up on such legal issues but also goes out of her way to help others.  I accept however that I am an asshole, you dont have to feel bad about attacking me even when you are wrong.

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14 hours ago, catjones said:

 

Grow up, please.  Obviously, you've never flown or taken a train.  "Kidnapping"?  Hysterical much?  My only disgust with myself is replying to your ludicrous remarks.

 

 

And, just exactly what would that look like?  Like a hall pass?  A note from your doctor?  You two live in a world of made up laws with no basis in reality or logic.

 

It's a signed piece of paper allowing you to travel signed by the other parent. Some countries even have their own form letters for this. My sil went skiing in Canada with her kids and she was asked and then her kids were asked if their dad knew about the trip etc. They let her pass. Just because it's never happened to you doesn't mean they can't ask and stop you if they feel like it.

 

There have been several high profile cases of parental kidnapping in my home country. What happens is that the other parent can file charges and according to the Hague agreement the police will look for the child and give the parent an option to return with the child or the child being sent back without them. It doesn't necessarily mean they will lose custody. They can of course return with the child and legally fight for full custody which they might possibly get.

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14 hours ago, catjones said:

And, just exactly what would that look like?  Like a hall pass?  A note from your doctor?  You two live in a world of made up laws with no basis in reality or logic.

 

If is a piece of paper where you say that you authorize the kid to leave the country with the other parent, you put there your data, sign it and put a telephone number because sometimes they want to call you to confirm.  This happens even to normal married couples, so when my wife has traveled with kids without me she has always brought a letter signed by me and a copy of my passport.

 

You can as well fill up a form like this if it is only for one trip:

 

https://www.adac.de/-/media/adac/pdf/jze/vollmacht-mit-mutter-reisendes-kind.pdf?la=de-de&hash=9AA89811D1784CE40B006E73B1A51B71

 

(this is the version for the kid traveling only with the mother.  There is the version for the father as well)

 

In other countries can be more complicated, it is not an informal letter, it is a permit you get from some sort of authorities.  In my country you get it from the child protection offices.

 

 

What I think the OP's husband signed and notarized is an authorization for her to travel out of the country with the kid for HOLIDAYS.   Not to move out of the country with the kid for good, because that right can't be given just like that, as far as I know.

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I have given such a letter to my husband when he has (rarely) travelled with a kid alone.

 

I have never bothered getting one from him when we travelled without him, because I never honestly thought about it. We did that nearly all the time, and no-one ever asked, but really it makes sense to have something.

 

The border authorities cannot know the circumstances of all travellers, and if their care and attention prevents one child from being taken away from a caring parent, then I am all for it.

 

I cannot think that the OPs husband has provided a letter saying she can permanently remove the kid from the country, but to be fair, if he has, which would be quite a shocker, then perhaps that is the easiest solution. It is usually optimal if both parents have a stake in the upbringing of children, but sometimes all the choices are sub-optimal on the face of it. Then you make the best choice you can in the circumstances and work to make that one more optimal. 

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I find this entire discussion on permission notes to be ridiculous.  Even the example note Krieg supplied above.  If you want, I'll fill out the form for anyone who feels they need it.  Just who is going to verify the contents and signatures?  The airline clerk scanning your tickets?  The passport control person?  What are they going to say?  Prove it?  It's a piece of paper!

 

I've flown many times (domestic/international) with kids.  Sometimes their seats were in a different boarding section and sometimes they went into a different passport line...never had any questions or issues.  Never.  Got and ticket?  Got a passport?  Step right on.

 

 

I picked United Airlines as a random example.  Apparently, a child can even fly alone Without your silly note.

 

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/minors.html

 

All the comments above Talk about the Need for the letter, but None have been asked for it.  Says it all.

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1 hour ago, catjones said:

I find this entire discussion on permission notes to be ridiculous.  Even the example note Krieg supplied above.  If you want, I'll fill out the form for anyone who feels they need it.  Just who is going to verify the contents and signatures?  The airline clerk scanning your tickets?  The passport control person?  What are they going to say?  Prove it?  It's a piece of paper!

 

I've flown many times (domestic/international) with kids.  Sometimes their seats were in a different boarding section and sometimes they went into a different passport line...never had any questions or issues.  Never.  Got and ticket?  Got a passport?  Step right on.

 

 

I picked United Airlines as a random example.  Apparently, a child can even fly alone Without your silly note.

 

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/minors.html

 

All the comments above Talk about the Need for the letter, but None have been asked for it.  Says it all.

 

You've been just lucky.   Or the Police/Immigration really didn't care much because you were a foreigner, or whatever,

 

Since you still think we are making up this crap, maybe you would trust what the German Police have to say about it:

 

https://www.bundespolizei.de/Web/DE/01Sicher-auf-Reisen/06Passrechtliche-Hinweise/02Reisen-mit-Kindern/reisen-mit-kindern_node.html

 

You can see there they recommend to bring a letter, how to reach the parent(s) signing the letter and copy of their identification.

 

I find funny how you think because they never asked you about it then it must not be needed.   

 

 

P.S. Google Translation of the last paragraph:

 

This facilitates the work of the border police with regard to preventing a possible child abduction or unauthorized removal of the child from the sphere of influence of the parent / guardian.
 
 

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Hmmmm.  When I was changing jobs in 1998 (thus had vacation to kill) I flew from Hamburg to Manchester with my son to spend a few days at my mother's house in Cheshire (not far from SpiderPig-Land).  Never thought about the possible need for OK from my wife but clearly should have had it.

 

Anyhow - on return trip I met an ex-DESY colleague whilst in the queue to board & my son (then aged 9) was allowed to sit on the jump seat on the flight deck both for take-off & landing (LH Cityline).

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4 hours ago, Krieg said:

maybe you would trust what the German Police

 

The Germans have a law for every combination and permutation of every event in the history and future of mankind.  The enforcement of those laws would require the entire population of China....on a daily basis.  Of the millions of child travelers in the World, can anyone, anyone point to a single verified instance where this "letter" was demanded?  Anyone?

 

Like I said, "Got a ticket?  Got a passport?  Next".

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10 hours ago, Krieg said:

Since you still think we are making up this crap, maybe you would trust what the German Police have to say about it:

 

https://www.bundespolizei.de/Web/DE/01Sicher-auf-Reisen/06Passrechtliche-Hinweise/02Reisen-mit-Kindern/reisen-mit-kindern_node.html

 

You can see there they recommend to bring a letter, how to reach the parent(s) signing the letter and copy of their identification.

 

I find funny how you think because they never asked you about it then it must not be needed.   

 

But there seems to be a distinction. It says there if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the child has been unlawfully removed from the custody of the Sorgeberechtigten (person entitled of custody)

 

Quote

In the case of accompanied minors, the Federal Police shall verify whether the accompanying person has custody of the minor, in particular in cases where the minor is accompanied by only one adult and there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that he or she has been unlawfully removed from the custody of the Sorgeberechtigten. In the latter case, the Federal Police will conduct more detailed investigations so that any discrepancies or contradictions in the information provided can be ascertained.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

 

So what could such reasonable grounds for suspicion be? One example could be different surnames on passports maybe? In such a case carrying a letter of permission from the other parent would indeed be recommendable. It doesn't say it's a must, though.

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I was specifically told at my court hearing that awarded me joint custody that if I wish to leave Germany with My daughter, I may do so, but I do need her mothers written permission... 

 

The Judge also told my ex that if I wish to leave  the country with my daughter for short trips and hollidays, then she must give me written permission. If she susspects that I will not return with our daughter, then she must go to the Jugendamt and report it to them and they will deal with it!

 

I wonder when CatJones last traveled out of a German airport with a child under the age of 10years old who has a different surname as they have!

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https://www.kidsaway.de/reiseplanung/single-mit-kind-allein-kind-ausland-welche-papiere/

Quote

 

Welche Vorschriften gelten?

Rein rechtlich gibt es keine Grundlage, die alleinreisenden Eltern mit Kindern vorschreibt, ein anderes Nachweisdokument als den Reisepass des Kindes vorzulegen. Das ist anders, wenn die Kinder mit den Großeltern oder mit Freunden verreisen. Dann ist eine Übertragung der Personensorge nötig.

Sorgeberechtigte Elternteile haben jedoch automatisch auch die Personensorge und das Aufenthaltsbestimmungsrecht. Hinzu kommt: Schon der Reisepass für ein Kind kann nur dann ausgestellt werden, wenn alle Sorgeberechtigten sich damit einverstanden erklärt haben. Insofern muss er rein rechtlich als Reiseerlaubnis genügen.

Wann sind zusätzliche Unterlagen sinnvoll?

Doch keiner riskiert gern, allein mit Kind bei der Ausreise aufgehalten zu werden, womöglich den Flug zu verpassen und auch noch allen Gepäckstücken wie Koffer, Buggy etc. hinterher laufen zu müssen. Deshalb kann es ratsam sein, zusätzliche Papiere vorzulegen.

Das gilt vor allem dann, wenn die Kinder nicht denselben Nachnamen tragen wie der mitreisende Elternteil, oder wenn sie eine andere Hautfarbe oder Nationalität haben. Zudem scheinen alleinreisende Väter häufiger nach einem Nachweis gefragt zu werden als alleinreisende Mütter.

 

Which regulations apply?
There is no legal basis for requiring a parent travelling alone with children to produce a document other than the child's passport. This is different when children travel with their grandparents or friends. Then a transfer of personal care is necessary.

However, parents with custody rights automatically also have personal custody and the right to determine residence. In addition, the passport for a child can only be issued if all custodians have agreed to it. In this respect, it must be legally sufficient as a travel permit.

 

When are additional documents useful?
But nobody likes to risk being stopped alone with a child when leaving the country, possibly missing the flight and having to run after all the luggage such as suitcases, buggies etc.. Therefore, it may be advisable to present additional documents.

This is especially true if the children do not have the same surname as the accompanying parent, or if they have a different skin colour or nationality. In addition, fathers travelling alone seem to be asked more often for proof than mothers travelling alone.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

I wonder when CatJones last traveled out of a German airport with a child under the age of 10years old who has a different surname as they have!

 

Never.  But in today's world what you describe is commonplace.  Divorce, step parents, grandparents of the mother, hyphenated last names, the list goes on.  All have different surnames.

When it comes to Laws, Germans know the Price of everything and the Value of nothing.

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Passports have no details of the father. What happens if you take a friend with you at passport control? Its 2019 and women fly all over the world with kids alone I'm sure passport control on a good day use the 6th sense when something is not right. But Its a minimum pay job these days when I checked how much preparation was being made for Brexit.

The husband might be quite happy to be relived of the financial burden and a few flights or Skype a year might be all he wants along with the mother being happy in a supported background. Immigration rules are part of the problem as he cannot follow them as another solution. 

All international relationships should come with a health warning. I got lucky or maybe I just accept the huge cultural differences are better than my own cultures habits. Every situation is different and people in a happy relationship always come up with advice based on one side of the story. Toytown I would be expected to be flamed and not take it personally. In Toytown people do give advice they are not saying do it my way. Thank them most care and tried. 

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FWIW last year when I flew to Canada with my toddler without my spouse, I asked the border services officer if she wanted to see my letter of travel consent from my spouse. She said no but that it was necessary to have on me.

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On 11/9/2019, 6:22:49, bramble said:

 

But there seems to be a distinction. It says there if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the child has been unlawfully removed from the custody of the Sorgeberechtigten (person entitled of custody)

 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

 

So what could such reasonable grounds for suspicion be? One example could be different surnames on passports maybe? In such a case carrying a letter of permission from the other parent would indeed be recommendable. It doesn't say it's a must, though.

 

When my SIL got asked and this was the US/Canada border btw, not Germany, she was going on a skiing trip with her kids.  They had obviously packed for a skiing holiday.  They all have the same last name.  She was asked if she had written permission from her husband and she didn't so they asked the kids.  They were happy with the kids answers and let them through.  So maybe you will not need any letter 99% of the time but if someone decides to ask about it and is not happy with your or your child's answer, your trip could end right there.  Sure you can fake the signature on the letter yourself.  If you aren't actually kidnapping your children, nobody will ever know.

 

This is a two part discussion though.  The one part is can you physically take your children out of the country without the other parents consent.  The answer to that in most cases would be yes.  The 2nd part however is the consequences of doing so, Hague convention and the like.

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On 08/11/2019, 16:51:54, catjones said:

 

 

I picked United Airlines as a random example.  Apparently, a child can even fly alone Without your silly note.

 

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/minors.html

 

All the comments above Talk about the Need for the letter, but None have been asked for it.  Says it all.

 

My child has regularly flown by herself since the age of 6 between the UK and Germany; there is a huge amount of paperwork and passport showing involved when it comes to crossing borders, all mandated by the airlines, who are unlikely to do this for fun and games. It's only for children over the age of 12/14/16 (depends on countries involbed) that the airlines will let up on this.
That this won't happen if the kid goes from New York to Washington has no relevance on the case here.

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