How to separate and maybe divorce

101 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

I'm not in a physically abusive relationship but the fight had become so heated that I feared it was going to turn into one.

 

 

That is not right, you claim violence is involved but then you claim it was heated and it "might" turn into one.

 

Because of your lies and also if you had listened to the advice on this forum a child could have grown up without a father.

 

    

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I think OP should tread carefully if considering removing her child from Germany without fully and truthfully informing her man.  Even 8 months is quite likely long enough to establish 'habitual residence' in DE and any 'wrongful removal' or 'wrongful retention' outside of DE, under the Hague Treaty, will in most jurisdictions probably result in the child being ordered returned here to DE to resolve any custody dispute under the appropriate DE jurisdiction (assuming OP's husband knows what to do and/or timely gets pro se help possibly through the US State Department). 

 

A wrongful retention, like a wrongful removal, could be the legal determination if she deceives her man into thinking he is giving consent for her to take the child out of DE temporarily but she subsequently files for custody in the US.  This could result in a return order with any custody dispute being subject to DE laws.  But the interpretation of the Hague Convention is not quite totally settled, and will depend a lot on the judge and jurisdiction (even the jurisdiction within the US) as well as the particular facts.

 

There is even a case in which mom took the kids, who had been going to school in DE and living with mom and dad, to Canada; the kids were ordered returned to DE to resolve the custody dispute; but dad finally lost in the DE family court.  I don't know all the facts but it is difficult for me to not suspect a gender bias in DE family court.

 

As for OP, I think it is reasonable to be skeptical yet supportive regarding the possible level of abuse of her relationship if that is at all possible.  I think from the limited information we have, it falls far short of supporting any unilateral decision on her part to take the kids out of DE.

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On 7.2.2018, 20:32:36, MLmunich said:
On 5.2.2018, 19:34:02, MLmunich said:


A friend suggested I read Die Weiße Massai because it reminded her a little of my situation. I read the plot summary and it sounded similar, albeit German vs. rural Kenyan cultures colliding instead of American vs. rural Vietnamese cultures. Unfortunately it ends in divorce, and I find that depressing.

 

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It actually is an autobiography written by a Swiss lady who did exactly what had Panda suggested. She told her African husband she was going to visit her family in Switzerland and also to get more money (as the violent husband had spent all her previous money on drugs & booze) He believed her and she left with her little daughter...

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On 2/5/2018, 8:49:34, PandaMunich said:

If you do the divorce in Germany, you will get shared custody and you will be obliged to stay in Germany until your child is 18, assuming he will also stay in Germany, since you would not be allowed to take the child away from its father.

I just reread this comment and I'm wondering if the same applies to "separation". Recently a friend advised me that if I want him to move out of the apartment I can hire a lawyer to do a separation, and force him to move out, versus a divorce. Is this correct? And if so, does it also mean I must stay in Germany as long as my daughter is 18?

 

So the only way I wouldn't have to stay in Germany until she's 18 would be if I stayed with him but got his permission to leave the country and not come back?

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37 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Recently a friend advised me that if I want him to move out of the apartment I can hire a lawyer to do a separation, and force him to move out, versus a divorce. Is this correct? And if so, does it also mean I must stay in Germany as long as my daughter is 18?

 

What does your common sense tell you?

Right, so you know the answer.

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37 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

I just reread this comment and I'm wondering if the same applies to "separation". Recently a friend advised me that if I want him to move out of the apartment I can hire a lawyer to do a separation, and force him to move out, versus a divorce. Is this correct? And if so, does it also mean I must stay in Germany as long as my daughter is 18?

 

So the only way I wouldn't have to stay in Germany until she's 18 would be if I stayed with him but got his permission to leave the country and not come back?

 

The only way I can think of how you can force him to move out is if he is abusing you. Otherwise you will just have to agree on who moves.

 

With shared custody I am not certain that you can circumvent a parental kidnapping charge if you were to get his permission to take your child on vacation and then simply don't return. What do you think should happen if he did that to you?

 

However, go talk to a lawyer and find out your options.

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Dont go for sticking but for tackling.

Get counselling. Find some expert who can support both of you in trying to make both of you understand the other one better.

Its is sometimes difficult enough even if both are from same cultural background since each partner does have a different family. Add cultural and may be language differences and off you fly into the next battle.

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13 hours ago, LeonG said:

The only way I can think of how you can force him to move out is if he is abusing you. Otherwise you will just have to agree on who moves.

 

He agrees to move out, but he doesn't then actually move out. So is there some kind of official legal separation process we can do so that he does then actually move out? Or can it only be officially decided that one person moves out if you divorce, i.e., you can't have it officially declared that he moves out if you separate?

 

13 hours ago, LeonG said:

With shared custody I am not certain that you can circumvent a parental kidnapping charge if you were to get his permission to take your child on vacation and then simply don't return. What do you think should happen if he did that to you?

He has already signed a letter that we had officially notarized saying I can leave the country as long as I want to with our child ("immer"). Actually I'm responding to a post where you suggested that I take my child and leave, so I'm confused.

 

I just want to know if there is a legal separation process, versus simply a divorce process, which could also make him follow through with his word to move out. He doesn't pay the rent, isn't responsible with taxes, lies, makes lots of debts, etc etc etc. My daughter and I need peace before her childhood passes us by, and he needs a chance to learn how to be financially responsible for himself.

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13 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

What does your common sense tell you?

Right, so you know the answer.

No, I don't know the answer. But I'm guessing that you're saying I must stay in Germany until my daughter is 18 no matter what? That seems absurd to me.

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11 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

No, I don't know the answer. But I'm guessing that you're saying I must stay in Germany until my daughter is 18 no matter what?

 

Legally yes, unless your husband agrees that you are allowed to move your daughter outside Germany.

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I'm confused.  you seem to have focused on the part about having to stay in Germany til your child is 18 but leaving out the part about having joint custody of said child.

 

IF you want to have any custody of your child you need to be in Germany to do so, and you need permission from the ex to take the child outside of Germany. That's how I understand it at least

 

 

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2 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

I'm confused.  you seem to have focused on the part about having to stay in Germany til your child is 18 but leaving out the part about having joint custody of said child.

 

IF you want to have any custody of your child you need to be in Germany to do so, and you need permission from the ex to take the child outside of Germany. That's how I understand it at least

 

I'm confused too. I do have permission from him to leave the country as long as I want with our daughter. Written on the notarized letter is "immer". 

 

I think I understand now from everyone's posts that it doesn't matter whether my husband and I are married, separated, or divorced... the state of our relationship doesn't matter... I cannot leave the country with my daughter without his permission. It's permission that's critical, not the state of the relationship. Am I correct? Unless I have sole custody and I guess you can only get that if you get divorced, not separated, right? 

 

But my main question is: Is separation something just that two people decide together (they decide that one person goes to live somewhere else)? Or can it also be a legal process, where we apply for a separation and he has to move out then? Because I'm very tired of his pseudo-business (gambling in disguise) and all the stresses it brings on the family, and he says he will move out, but then doesn't because he's used to be me being the all-forgiving all-giving who solves all of his problems.

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4 hours ago, MLmunich said:

I cannot leave the country with my daughter without his permission.

 

If your daughter has a passport and you buy a round-trip ticket to wherever, I've never heard of a situation where some official asks for a permission slip or divorce papers.  Children fly with a single parent everyday.

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10 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

If your daughter has a passport and you buy a round-trip ticket to wherever, I've never heard of a situation where some official asks for a permission slip or divorce papers.  Children fly with a single parent everyday.

 

Just because its possible doesnt make it legal, or moral.  Kidnapping children isnt a brilliant idea and Im shocked that you are so casual about it.  I hope on reflection you are disgusted at yourself for such a suggestion.

 

4 hours ago, MLmunich said:

But my main question is: Is separation something just that two people decide together (they decide that one person goes to live somewhere else)? Or can it also be a legal process, where we apply for a separation and he has to move out then?

 

As long as we are talking about germany divorce isnt a simple thing where you go into an Amt, sign a form and its done.  You have to (normally) live apart for a time, and I think this is what you are talking about as separation.  

 

Im not aware of a mechanism to force the partner to move out (assuming no violence, and you are both on the rental contract etc), I think its on the person who wants to separate to make it happen.

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25 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

If your daughter has a passport and you buy a round-trip ticket to wherever, I've never heard of a situation where some official asks for a permission slip or divorce papers.  Children fly with a single parent everyday.

 

Officials are actually supposed to ask for either proof of custody or parental permission and sometimes they even do do their jobs. 

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4 hours ago, MLmunich said:

It's permission that's critical, not the state of the relationship. Am I correct? Unless I have sole custody and I guess you can only get that if you get divorced, not separated, right? 

 

Theoretically your husband can give up his parental rights, but I don't know why he would. Under certain circumstances, it is possible to also go to court and gain sole custody, but the bar is rather high. 

 

4 hours ago, MLmunich said:

But my main question is: Is separation something just that two people decide together (they decide that one person goes to live somewhere else)? Or can it also be a legal process, where we apply for a separation and he has to move out then?

 

I think you've misunderstood how things work here. In Germany it is even possible to be separated while living in the same home (getrennt von Tisch und Bett). 

 

I think you need to go to a Frauenhaus or Beratungsstelle near you (look at the beginning of this thread for addresses) and tell them your whole story. The only way you can get more detailed advice is by providing more info and I can understand if you don't want to go into more details on an open forum. 

 

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8 hours ago, MLmunich said:

He has already signed a letter that we had officially notarized saying I can leave the country as long as I want to with our child ("immer"). Actually I'm responding to a post where you suggested that I take my child and leave, so I'm confused.

 

I just want to know if there is a legal separation process, versus simply a divorce process, which could also make him follow through with his word to move out. He doesn't pay the rent, isn't responsible with taxes, lies, makes lots of debts, etc etc etc. My daughter and I need peace before her childhood passes us by, and he needs a chance to learn how to be financially responsible for himself.

 

I'm confused too because I never suggested that you take your child and leave. I did however say that you might get away with it if you did.

 

So if you are now at the point that he has allowed you to take the child and leave and even put that in writing, that is then definitely an option for you. He can't accuse you of parental kidnapping if he's allowed you to leave permanently.

 

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7 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

Just because its possible doesnt make it legal, or moral.  Kidnapping children isnt a brilliant idea and Im shocked that you are so casual about it.  I hope on reflection you are disgusted at yourself for such a suggestion.

 

Grow up, please.  Obviously, you've never flown or taken a train.  "Kidnapping"?  Hysterical much?  My only disgust with myself is replying to your ludicrous remarks.

 

7 hours ago, engelchen said:

ask for either proof of custody or parental permission

 

And, just exactly what would that look like?  Like a hall pass?  A note from your doctor?  You two live in a world of made up laws with no basis in reality or logic.

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4 hours ago, catjones said:

 

Grow up, please.  Obviously, you've never flown or taken a train.  "Kidnapping"?  Hysterical much?  My only disgust with myself is replying to your ludicrous remarks.

 

 

And, just exactly what would that look like?  Like a hall pass?  A note from your doctor?  You two live in a world of made up laws with no basis in reality or logic.

I used to know a woman who took her child out of the country without the father´s consent. When she returned she was arrested and her son was taken away from her to live with his father. There is also such a thing as the Hague convention which obliges forein states to repatriate "kidnapped" children. However, that doesn´t seem to be the problem here as the father already consented.

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