Landlord refuses to sign Anmeldung Form

33 posts in this topic

I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you propose.  I'm not trying to be "thick" - are you saying s/he just *shouldn't register*?

 

but there is a two week window where one is required to register.  Are you suggesting the OP just ignore that very clear requirement and fess up in a month or at some future time once they have a permanent place?  That sounds very *decidedly* risky

 

And it doesn't address the fact that this person may actually need a bank account or other services that require an anmeldung asap - or god forbid, they need to finalize their permit(s) so they can start work,  which you can't accomplish without the anmeldung.    

 

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I know that the OP can be evicted if it comes to light that he's in an unauthorized sublet situation? But how would that work in practical terms if he decided to dig his heels? Would the bailiff just turn up the next day? Considering that there was a thread here about a landlord who needed something like six months to get rid of a tenant who wasn't paying, an immediate and forced eviction seems only theoretical. He should still worry about, as the owner could resort to illegal means, like changing the locks.

 

 

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I still posit that it's extraordinarily unlikely the landlord will ever find out...and if they do, I highly highly doubt it will be very soon.

 

Anyway, OP please just call or visit the burgeramt and ask them what you should do?  tell them you're worried about eviction yada yada...and ask them what to do.

 

if you do that, please come back and tell us what they said.

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24 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

You are obviously confused.

yeah I am confused.  As you seem to be advising a new arrival to actively break the law when there is 100% chance s/he will be found out when they actually do register

 

That's just not like you.  Hence, yes, I'm confused.

 

I don't need to re-read it ;)

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10 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you propose.  I'm not trying to be "thick" - are you saying s/he just *shouldn't register*?

 

I suggest he looks for a permanent address or an address where registration is possible asap and then registers. 

 

10 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

but there is a two week window where one is required to register.  Are you suggesting the OP just ignore that very clear requirement and fess up in a month or at some future time once they have a permanent place? 

 

Yes. Because people at the Einwohnermeldeamt KNOW that it's nearly impossible to register at a hotel or a airbnb flat. 

 

10 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

That sounds very *decidedly* risky

 

Imo it's much more risky to risk becoming homeless overnight:

 

8 minutes ago, Smaug said:

I know that the OP can be evicted if it comes to light that he's in an unauthorized sublet situation? But how would that work in practical terms if he decided to dig his heels? Would the bailiff just turn up the next day?

 

There is no bailiff involved, it's a simple police case. Worst case scenario: Einwohnermeldeamt back office clerk simply calls the landlord, 'why don't you sign the form?', landlord answers 'Me? That person is not my renter', landlord dials 110 'There's a squatter in my flat', immediate eviction follows. 

 

A renter not paying rent is a compelety different pair of shoes.

 

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ok fair enough.  if this person literally can't afford backup accommodations and/or is willing to risk possible action against himself by the amt in spite of the fact that not only are you supposed to register but you're ALSO supposed to report landlords who refuse to sign off on the registration as...a lot of them are illegal?...I myself would rather risk having to spend the extra cash at a moment's notice on a hotel or hostel than get in hot water with any amt, especially before I had my permit(s)

 

personally I would register without signoff as soon as necessary (for me that would have been day 1 as I had to start working on day 3 - maybe the OP can hold out for 2 weeks), and just be prepared to find a hotel or air bnb on short notice if the worst should happen, *and* the amt is super quick about it, *and* s/he gets kicked out before the month is up.  I think the latter is extremely doubtful to happen in a month's time.

 

you also didn't address the more immediate problems that come with not having an anmeldung...like the job thingy

 

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2 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

There is no bailiff involved, it's a simple police case. Worst case scenario: Einwohnermeldeamt back office clerk simply calls the landlord, 'why don't you sign the form?', landlord answers 'Me? That person is not my renter', landlord dials 110 'There's a squatter in my flat', immediate eviction follows. 

 

 

 

That's beyond implausible, and not just because the OP is not a squatter.

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21 hours ago, Smaug said:

If I were a visitor in Germany, no, of course not, because I wouldn't be required to register, but if I lived at the hotel, I would-- Section 19 (2) BMG actually requires me to report this immediately.

 

 

Internet warriors who do not have a sense or real life are always funny.   I assume you have never used AirBnB as a guest or host.

 

This is what it is going to happen in real life if you threaten your host with legalities and paragraphs about your host not signing the Wohnungsgeberbestätigung:   The host will tell you he/she won't sign it, you take it of leave it.   If you continue been a pain in the butt about it and you continue threatening the hosts with the "German Law" the host will ask you to leave, immediately.  Yes, AirBnB are not long term contracts and they can kick you out at any moment, just like they can kick you out of a hotel.   Then the cancellation policies from AirBnB will kick in, the guest will be refunded of all days that were paid but not used.   Because it was a cancellation done by the host there will be a review, the host might be hit with a small financial fine (50 or 100 EUR), but the host can claim that he was exposed to "unexpected Government burden" and the host most probably won't be penalized.  Even the bad review from the guest might end up being removed if the host has mostly good reviews.   The only bad outcome of the whole situation is that the host might not reach "Super Host" status in the next 12 months if the standard "This host cancelled a reservation" automatic message sticks.  So that's it,

 

Or you can be a millionaire or a famous person like Udo Lindenberg and many hotels will be willing to sign the Wohnungsgeberbestätigung for you.

 

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I'm going to piggyback on this thread rather than starting yet another "Anmeldung" thread.

 

I have just arrived in Germany, and for my first three months during which I will apartment hunt, I booked a flat in Wiesbaden through "Wunderflats". I explained to the agent that it would be a temporary accommodation while apartment hunting, and I checked the option that there would be a potential extension of stay (if I don't find another place).

 

Now I've arrived (move in today): I requested per email to get a "Wohnungsgeberbestätigung" but the landlord refused! Reason: "Aus steuerrechtlichen Gründen ist es nicht möglich in unsere Ferienwohnung ihren festen Wohnsitz anzumelden".

 

This sounds like BS to me... Is there such a justification for tax reasons? And isn't the landlord legally required to provide me the Wohnungsgeberbestätigung? I have a full rental contract that states nothing of the sort. And I'm paid up for the first 2 months so I can't afford to drop this place and move somewhere else.

 

Besides, I start work on Monday and *need* the Anmeldung for my tax number, bank account, health insurance etc.

 

Really appreciate if I can get some advice!

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Hotels and holiday homes register their guests differently. This seems to hold for stays of up to 2 months.   I would  take the contract along to the Burgeramt and explain you are staying in a holiday home.   And if the contract gets extended, go back and ask again.  The good news is you will not be liable to pay GEZ while you are there.

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Thanks, I'm actually staying for 3 months initially though, with an option to extend. So I don't think the holiday home classification applies anymore.

Also just found that Wunderflats specifically has this on their FAQ:

https://wunderflats.com/de/hilfe/mieter/dein-vermieter/kann-ich-eine-wohnungsgeberbescheinigung-oder-andere-dokumente-vom-vermieter-bekommen

 

So I will try complaining through them first.

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3 hours ago, kuroneko said:

Is there such a justification for tax reasons?

 

There could be 2 reasons for the landlord's refusal:

 

He's practicing tax evasion (that's the most likely reason)

In this scenario, the landlord doesn't declare his rental profit from the Ferienwohnung, so he doesn't pay income tax on that profit, nor does he pay the 7% VAT that's due on the turnover from this Ferienwohnung should his yearly turnover be over 17,500€, so the last thing he wants to do is make the state aware that somebody else is living there.

 

He's not practicing tax evasion, but this is a new-built (built less than 10 years ago) and he chose not to be a Kleinunternehmer, i.e. to charge 7% VAT even if his turnover is less than 17,500€, so as to get back the VAT he paid on the building costs

In that case, the only problem would be if you really stayed there more than 6 months, because as soon as you pass the 6 month mark, that rental, that previously carried 7% VAT because of §4 Nr. 12 Satz 2 UStG iVm §12 (2) Nr. 11 UStG (but in turn, allowed the landlord to get the VAT back on his new-built), retroactively turns into a 0% VAT rental, since long-term stays are exempted from VAT in §4 Nr. 12 a) UStG

The legal reasoning chain here (which won't interest you, but which would interest the landlord's Steuerberater) is: A12.16 (1) UStAE --> A4.12.3 (2) UStAE

 

This change from 7% VAT to 0% VAT would mean that the landlord would have to pay back to the Finanzamt at least 6/120 of the VAT that he had initially got reimbursed by the Finanzamt on his building costs that were incurred within the last 10 years, because of §15a (1) Satz 2 UStG.

 

So, as long as you really leave that flat before the 6 months are up, there is no problem, even if this flat was built less than 10 years ago.

 

*********************************

 

However, just to be clear: someone who usually only rents out a Ferienwohnung for short stretches (= no client stays for 6 months or more = kurzfristig), and who therefore runs a "Beherbungsstätte", only has a to issue a Wohnungsgeberbescheinigung to that client which that client then has to present to the Bürgerbüro to register his address, if that client stays there for more than 3 months, in accordance with:
 

  • §29 (1) Satz 2 Bundesmeldegesetz, in German:  https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bmg/__29.html

    § 29 Besondere Meldepflicht in Beherbergungsstätten

    (1) Wer in Einrichtungen, die der gewerbs- oder geschäftsmäßigen Aufnahme von Personen dienen (Beherbergungsstätten), für länger als sechs Monate aufgenommen wird, unterliegt der Meldepflicht nach § 17 oder § 28. Wer nicht für eine Wohnung im Inland gemeldet ist, hat sich innerhalb von zwei Wochen bei der Meldebehörde anzumelden, sobald sein Aufenthalt die Dauer von drei Monaten überschreitet.

 

  • §29 (1) Satz 2 Bundesmeldegesetz, in English:  https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bmg/englisch_bmg.html#p0274

    Section 29
    Special registration requirement for commercial accommodations

    (1) Anyone staying in institutions for the purpose of commercial reception of persons (commercial accommodations) for longer than six months shall be subject to the requirement to register pursuant to Section 17 or 28. Anyone who is not registered at a residence in Germany shall register with the registration authority within two weeks as soon as his or her stay exceeds three months.

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