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Trump declares Jerusalem as Israel's Capital

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They better make the American Embassy there mega bomb proof, he's pissed off the Palestinians big time.

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1 hour ago, Anna66 said:

I always thought the capital was Tel Aviv? Doesn't half of it like belong to Palestine??

Here, interesting facts about capitals.

For example, Switzerland has no capital at all. Liechtenstein: Vaduz is a Hauptort, but not Hauptstadt because it is not a city. In English: capital village? Japan has no capital city either because Tokio as a single entity doesn't exist any more, so de facto capitals are 23 districts in Tokio prefecture. 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptstadt#Staaten_ohne_bzw._mit_nicht_international_anerkannter_Hauptstadt

 

47 minutes ago, hooperski said:

They better make the American Embassy there mega bomb proof, he's pissed off the Palestinians big time.

All American embassies in the Middle East are like fortresses, and so are most embassies of Israel. From safety point of view I think there will not be any additional risks from moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem: the risk is high enough anyway.

 

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Doesn't half of it like belong to Palestine??

As per international law it doesn't belong to anyone until a new peace agreement is signed. Both Palestine and Israel claim ownership, Israel occupies whole Jerusalem and has de facto control, before that it was occupied by Jordan which has no claim for it anymore, before that British Mandate Territory, before that Osman Empire.

 

Basically, the Palestinians have no more "historical rights" than Jews, Brits or Turks, so the situation is complicated from legal point of view.

 

I think United States still legally doesn't recognize Jerusalem as part of Israel despite Trump moving the embassy.

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Did I miss a memo?  What does Trump have to do with deciding the capital of Israel?

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32 minutes ago, katheliz said:

Did I miss a memo?  What does Trump have to do with deciding the capital of Israel?

As written above, it is about recognizing Jerusalem as part of Israel.

 

Another notable country which has different capital and embassies location is the Netherlands. Yet nobody questions that Amsterdam (official capital) is a part of Netherlands, so moving an embassy from the Hague (seat of government and de facto location of most embassies) to Amsterdam will not bear any political message.

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The issue is ultimately not where the embassy is but whether the USA can maintain the very tattered fig leaf of being an acceptable broker in the conflict when it has come down on one side of a key issue of conflict.  The secondary subtext is the role of Saudi Arabia and how stable its current rulers really are, considering that they have basically telegraphed their acceptance of Israel's permanent full control of Jerusalem and appear on the brink of full recognition anyway.

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The policy of many Muslim countries of pretending that Israel does not exist is an outdated one, and it does not serve the cause of Palestinian rights in any sense, in any case, but that is a separate issue from the Jerusalem issue which is about how the final peace settlement would actually look like regardless of how it is achieved.  Right now the geography of the Palestinian territories (islands of Palestinian population surrounded by Israeli settlements and military establishments) suggests an outcome for the Palestinians that I can't imagine that Israel would like but Israel seems to have chosen anyway.

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1 minute ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

The issue is ultimately not where the embassy is but whether the USA can maintain the very tattered fig leaf of being an acceptable broker in the conflict when it has come down on one side of a key issue of conflict. 

Hamas and its supporters believe in US-Israeli "world order" conspiracy theories, I do not think this move will change that anyhow.

 

Actually, Israel can go as far and annex West Bank. That will solve one set of problems but create a new one. Some kind of Palestinian Confederation with Israel and West Bank as members would solve multiple problems including the sovereignty of Jerusalem.

 

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The policy of many Muslim countries of pretending that Israel does not exist is an outdated one

Peace agreement with Jordan, who was the previous owner of West Bank and Jerusalem, was signed in 1994. Basically this peace agreement has created the problem of West Bank and its sovereignty. Jordan doesn't want it back, neither wants Israel, but it keeps occupying it for own safety purposes.

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

Hamas and its supporters believe in US-Israeli "world order" conspiracy theories, I do not think this move will change that anyhow.

 

The issue is not Hamas, it is practically a distraction as far as the politics of final status go.

 

1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

 

Actually, Israel can go as far and annex West Bank. That will solve one set of problems but create a new one. Some kind of Palestinian Confederation with Israel and West Bank as members would solve multiple problems including the sovereignty of Jerusalem.

 

If it annexes the West Bank formally it would be declaring its inhabitants to be citizens. Mainstream Israeli politics has historically been against annexation of the whole enchilada for that reason.

 

1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

Peace agreement with Jordan, who was the previous owner of West Bank and Jerusalem, was signed in 1994. Basically this peace agreement has created the problem of West Bank and its sovereignty. Jordan doesn't want it back, neither wants Israel, but it keeps occupying it for own safety purposes.

 

The security argument doesn't really mean all that much given modern warfare, and it is hard to maintain that argument given the extensive civilian settlement construction.  Jordan is one of the few Arab countries with which Israel has a diplomatic relationship and the very foundation of that relationship is the recognition that peace with Jordan does not mean peace with the Palestinians.

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Idiot Trump has added fuel and lit a match to probably the most combustible issue in the Middle East.  I expect an explosion soon.

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Idiot Trump is being used as a tool for the religious right to see if they really can push fast forward on the Rapture. Did you see Pence standing behind him and nodding? I'd like to swing at that smarmy mug.

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If Trump moves his lips, it's to lie.

 

Just to be a little optimistic, by the time a plot of land for the building has been found, building permissions has been granted, and actual building has completed, Trump will be rotting in prison.

 

By the way, and this is maybe more for the "questions you are afraid will make you look stupid" thread, but if suicide is a mortal sin, why isn't "wanting to expedite the rapture" one?

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Well, @Anna66, he thought he would have at least one more year in which to start this war. Since the Flynn situation escalated rapidly and not in his favor, he has to move this forward to "sometime before I get impeached".

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I am skeptical that any immediate open conflict over Jerusalem is going to happen because of this. The main problem is that it entrenches an already entrenched situation even further and takes bargaining chips off the table for entirely US-domestic reasons.

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On 6.12.2017, 22:07:36, yourkeau said:

...

 

Basically, the Palestinians have no more "historical rights" than Jews, Brits or Turks, so the situation is complicated from legal point of view.

...

 

Brits have no rights at all. They held Palestine as a League of Nations mandate only. That didn't prevent the world's most eminent imperialists from promising the land of a people they didn't represent to someone else, though. The Palestinians had continuous residence over centuries and there would have been no question that they had the right to form their own state as a result of decolonization. Yet the club of the colonial powers - the UN at the time - was happy to give a large chunk of the country to European immigrants.

Even though Israel's right to exist cannot be reasonably doubted today, it would be an act of honesty by the West to accept that the way Israel was created was exceedingly dodgy. It is bizarre to believe that the Arabs should have tolerated something that woudn't have been tolerated in Europe or in America.

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