Berlin Pension Requirement for NE

9 posts in this topic

A while ago, I emailed the Auslanderbehorde in Berlin to ask if the Mindestbeitrag would be sufficient as public pension contributions for an NE. They don't explicitly state that it would, but it sounds like for public contributions they may not check the payout amount?

 

But, the more interesting thing about this reply is something I didn't ask about because I thought I already knew the answer: the required payout for a private pension plan. In threads such as https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/126457-freelancers-and-state-pension-contributions/?page=2#comment-3539266, people have stated that Berlin requires a private pension with 157,000 Euros for an NE. But I'm wondering if I'm either misreading their response or if it has changed, because it looks to me like they currently are looking for private pensions that total 121,248 Euros, NOT 157,000 Euros. Has anyone else emailed them to ask about pension requirements for an NE lately and did they say the same thing as below or something different?

 

This was their reply-

"Ihre Anfrage habe ich erhalten und habe Ihnen hierzu folgende Informationen zusammengefasst:

 
Pflichtbeiträge:
Der Gesetzgeber gibt 3 Varianten vor, die gleichberechtigt als Beleg einer gefestigten wirtschaftlichen Integration dienen. Neben den explizit genannten 60 Pflichtbeiträgen in die gesetzliche Rentenversicherung werden auch 60 freiwillige Beiträge zur gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung bzw. eine vergleichbare private Altersvorsorge und Vorsorge wegen Erwerbsminderung bei einer Versicherungs- oder Versorgungseinrichtung, wie sie die freien Berufe kennen, oder bei einem Versicherungsunternehmen anerkannt.
Freiwillige Beiträge:
Rentenversicherte, die laut Versicherungsverlauf der Deutschen Rentenversicherung 60 freiwillige Beiträge geleistet haben, erfüllen ebenso wie Pflichtversicherte die Voraussetzung des § 9 Abs. 2 Nr. 3. Die Voraussetzung gilt ebenfalls als erfüllt, wenn 60 Beiträge zum Teil als Pflichtbeitrag und zum Teil als freiwilliger Beitrag im Versicherungsverlauf erfasst sind, ohne dass gesondert zu prüfen wäre, ob von zur Sicherung des Lebensunterhalts ausreichenden Rentenansprüchen bei Erreichen des Renteneintrittsalters auszugehen ist.
Private Vorsorge:
Der Gesetzeswortlaut verlangt eine mit 60 geleisteten Pflichtbeiträgen vergleichbare private Vorsorge, etwa von nicht pflichtversicherten Selbstständigen. Die private Vorsorge ist zum Einen vergleichbar, wenn der Antragsteller Anspruch auf
1. eine garantierte Altersrente und
2. eine Rente im Falle einer eingetretenen Berufsunfähigkeit erworben hat.
 
Vor diesem Hintergrund ist im Sinne eines Richtwertes etwa von vergleichbaren Leistungen auszugehen, wenn ein Versicherungsvertrag über eine private Renten- oder Lebensversicherung vorgelegt wird, die den Antragsteller in den Stand versetzt, spätestens mit Vollendung des 67. Lebensjahres über eine monatliche Geldleistung von mindestens 842,00 Euro auf Lebenszeit oder aber jährlich 10.104,00 Euro bis zur Vollendung des 79. Lebensjahres (gem. Sterbetafel 2012/2014 des Statistischen Bundesamtes durchschnittliche Lebenserwartung eines heute 40-jährigen Mannes) zu verfügen. Auch muss nachgewiesen werden, dass eine Versicherung für den Fall der Berufsunfähigkeit vorliegt."
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You are aware that the section you are quotting from ( VAB A9 - 9.0, here 9.2.1.3.) is about family members of people having a residence permit because of humanitarian reasons? As the text shows it deals on several occassions with the question if a spouse of someone who already is permitted residence in Germany has to have the same high pension proof like the main holder of the the permit or not.

Does this even apply to you?  If yes, then please state the exact circumstances of your application so that others are not lead astray or get confused.

 

If not, forget about these numbers because they are not meant for you.

 

The whole VAB has more than 790 pages...don't pick out those that you somehow find attractive enough please and then telling others who are dealing with this for far longer than you are that their carefully researched and worded info here onToytown is wrong. 

 

Unbenannt.JPG.995a3ca0dcfdd65fa3c4d9a238

 

 

Cheerio

 

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PS: could be just as well that the person at the Ausländeramt Berlin looked up and/or  quoted this wrongly to you. It has happened before...

 

Cheerio

 

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PPS: interesting that they are demanding here also a "Berufsunfähigkeitsversicherung" (which is going to cost extra money, btw) and not for applications of self-employed. Strange that, me thinks.

 

Cheerio

 

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If you are self-employed, this is the current (end of 2017) and relevant passage in the rule-book of Berlin! Bear in mind, please, all that read this:  every city in Germany has different rules. The ones from Berlin may not be applicable to other areas and cities of Germany.

 

5a1e73c38e6e5_EckrentnerDatenBerlin2017.

 

Cheerio

 

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6 minutes ago, Starshollow said:

 

The whole VAB has more than 790 pages...don't pick out those that you somehow find attractive enough please and then telling others who are dealing with this for far longer than you are that their carefully researched and worded info here onToytown is wrong. 

 

I did not pick out that section because I "somehow find it attractive enough". I found the section that matched what the ABH told me directly, when I explained my situation to them including that I am a freelancer. I also added appropriate caveats that I may be misreading it or misinterpreting it. I understand that you are an expert, but regulations change over time and people make mistakes and I thought it was valuable to start a discussion to be sure that the #s that are repeatedly quoted here are correct and up to date.

 

 

 

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as said above (or someplace else, starting to lose track of where the two of us discuss this :-) ) : I am not an expert in Visa issues, that is a field for specialized lawyers in my opinion, which I am not. But I am a financial advisor for Expats for more than a decade and have dealt with NE-application all over Germany ever since on the side of proof of acceptable pension plans.  And in Berlin in all these years it was always thus that the Ausländerbehörde demanded the private pension plans in accordance with the section for self-employed I copied above in lieu of adequate public pension. The amounts have gone up yearly, though. In 2018 it will now be close/around 170k EUR final capital required.

 

I just don't like being accused to posting inaccurate information...guess you just rubbed me involuntarily the wrong way with how you phrased that somewhere on Toytown. Seems that you yourself, though, just got some weird/incorrect info from someone working at the Ausländerbehörde if he/she quoted the other numbers to you.

 

Having said that: of course, everyone can make mistakes. Including me. I have stood corrected in the past by some of the Toytown experts like Straightpoop, PandaMunich or Engelchen to name just some. But very, very rarely as I do a lot of background research and reading the actual laws and legal commentaries myself before I post something. 

 

Cheerio

 

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1 hour ago, Starshollow said:

as said above (or someplace else, starting to lose track of where the two of us discuss this :-) ) : I am not an expert in Visa issues, that is a field for specialized lawyers in my opinion, which I am not. But I am a financial advisor for Expats for more than a decade and have dealt with NE-application all over Germany ever since on the side of proof of acceptable pension plans.  And in Berlin in all these years it was always thus that the Ausländerbehörde demanded the private pension plans in accordance with the section for self-employed I copied above in lieu of adequate public pension. The amounts have gone up yearly, though. In 2018 it will now be close/around 170k EUR final capital required.

 

I just don't like being accused to posting inaccurate information...guess you just rubbed me involuntarily the wrong way with how you phrased that somewhere on Toytown. Seems that you yourself, though, just got some weird/incorrect info from someone working at the Ausländerbehörde if he/she quoted the other numbers to you.

 

Having said that: of course, everyone can make mistakes. Including me. I have stood corrected in the past by some of the Toytown experts like Straightpoop, PandaMunich or Engelchen to name just some. But very, very rarely as I do a lot of background research and reading the actual laws and legal commentaries myself before I post something. 

 

Cheerio

 

Yes, I wasn't trying to accuse you of making inaccurate statements- actually when I made this thread I took care not to name you because I didn't want you to feel that way, and only mentioned your name in the other thread because another poster did. I just saw that 157k number mentioned by lots of people here, and it definitely did not match what the ABH told me or the section of the regulations they quoted. Now it is clear that there are two different regulations with different #s. I've been stressing over this constantly, almost every day, for several months now, so I thought it was worth clarifying what the actual regulations are as precisely as possible given that I had seen two different #s from multiple credible sources.

 

And wow- that is crazy that it is going up more again. If one already has a plan for the old amount would it be possible to update it to a higher capital amount to deal with that? Or does one just need to hope that it doesn't change (does it go up every year or less often?)?

 

Side question: If anyone has heard specific #s required for citizenship for private pension (especially in Berlin), I'd like to hear more about that. It sounds like some pension is required, but I haven't been able to get a clear answer anywhere as to how much the payout needs to be for a private pension and there don't seem to be online regulations. I've emailed them, but who knows if they will give me incorrect info like the ABH did :(

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I already got over it... :-)   As Sid says in ICE AGE I: I am too lazy to hold a grudge...  (in private life, that is)

 

The increase in pension requirements by Berlin ABH has to do with the changes in public pension every year. Hence they'll need to adjust this. But once you started a plan in a given year, my experience is so far that they have never asked for a change/adding-on with existing pension plans.

 

Cheerio

 

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