Divorcing in Germany with a young child

52 posts in this topic

indeed - even if you divorce, getting counseling together to set some ground rules and develop more effective communication will still be important for your child, especially, but also for the two of you individually.  You're going to be tied to your wife in some capacity until your baby is grown.  May as well reduce drama surrounding that as much as possible, and counseling can help.

 

I do get the notion that being out of the situation may offer relief, and I do think that's possible as some of this sounds like the feeling one gets when they are being mobbed - a situation that causes a lot of mental distress, and which can be solved largely by removing yourself from that situation.  But you can't check out of the dysfunctional dynamics with your wife completely unless you are basically willing to abandon your child, which it (thankfully) seems you are not considering at all. 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/12/2017, 17:11:58, notfromhere said:

 

  • I would have to move out and be seperated for a year. The lawyer said this is the most difficult obstacle everyone seems to face.. 

 

Is this really true ?

 

If you have a spare room and move into the spare room for a year this can also be counted as being separated as you are not sharing the marital bed.

 

Not a 100% sure here .

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RF is correct. You can even sleep in the living room and it should be OK. The conditions for the 1 year separation is not sharing bed, not eating/cooking together and I think not washing clothes together or something like that.

The point is you do not have to move out, provided the situation is manageable.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi again @notfromhere,

 

I have been thinking about you and your family, even though I of course don’t know you. I also re read your initial post and would like to offer some further advice / input on things that have helped me with the various elements of married life. 

 

• MIL - Interfering Issue

 

I strongly suggest being direct and setting immediate boundaries with her. My marriage improved when I enforced boundaries with my MIL, my husband of course did not like me doing this and she (MIL) hated it even more and yes there was a blow up / bust up over me setting boundaries and yes she did try and disregard my boundaries for a very long time. At the end we both won because she knows what I will and will not tolerate as well as Visa Versa. 

 

A bit more clarification on this would be things from my personal experience: 

 

• making it clear that unless she (MIL) communicates with me directly I will not respond through my husband. She used to always use my husband as the middle man for news / speaking to me and this caused a lot of miscommubication & drama. I eventually told my husband to be firm with his mother and insist that she texts / calls or emails me directly if she wants to speak to me and to be honest and say this form of communication is not working for us as it causes tension and issues. She challenged this for the longest of times, my husband would cave & try be the middle man - I kept making it clear to him that I would not even discuss the topic unless it came from her directly. ** she is passive aggressive and ppl like this always try to cause chaos through grouping, excluding as well as miscommunication. No lies she would even criticise my Christmas presents or insinuate that i have an eating disorder or the worst part while on holiday make decisions about / move my animals without my consent to / through my husband which caused a lot of drama. I was straight with her, I let her know that she was actually creating problems in our marriage and that I am available 24/7 - 365 on my numerous forms of communication to speak to her and that I would no longer be speaking through my husband. *** the next thing she did was complain that I write essays and she can’t read them to my husband, I gave no rection, and instead saved my thoughts for my counselling session. Bottom line she will never change & neither will your MIL, you can however enforce boundaries for yourself and your happiness if done in a calm , honest, authentic and to the point but polite and respectful way. 

 

My MIL would also always throw things in my husbands face or mine that she had done for him / us and I put a stop to it by not accepting anything from her whether it be a small gesture like feeding our pets while on holiday or something of monetary value, I also explained why directly to her, “ thank you very much for the offer, unfortunately I do not think accepting this is a good idea as it will most likely cause conflict down the line. Thank you though, I do appreciate the gesture but it’s a firm no. thank you again” 

 

My MIL would also say the rudest, meanest things to me or my husband like when I was attacked in a home invasion in Zimbabwe that “these things only seem to happen to you” , she said disgusting things about my mother who she has never met as she is deceased as well as started crying the one day when she came over unannounced because I had friends of colour visiting us. I straight up asked her why and where did / does her racism come from. ** which caused drama naturally as people don’t like other people calling them out on their flaws. 

 

She constantly tries to get me to eat non vegan food and make me feel uncomfortable ubtill I stopped allowing her to do it. I made it clear that me being a vegan is not a topic up for discussion unless she wants to sit down and hear my thoughts on her food choices. And again, if she tries to involve my husband or anyone else I make it clear that it is a closed dialogue between me and her. I never ever bad mouth her or talk about her in a negative way to anyone except my therapist / this thread. I highly suggest doing the same, she is still my husbands mother, a grandmother a MIL to my sister in law an aunt , a child to her mother who is my husbands grandmother. ** this connects to the point about triggers, I know for a fact my husband gets triggered if I complain about his mother to him. He is actually much happier being out of the middle even if his mother and I are not agreeing or have had words, it’s none of his business and things calm down and blow over much quicker if I do not involve him in my dynamic with his mother 

 

Long story short, if I could tackle my MOnster MIL and set as well as defend my boundaries so can you. I strongly suggest you see someone about this, it is so important to love and respect yourself and enforce that with people around you especially your MIL. Whether you get a divorce or not this woman will still be in your life, I strongly suggest addressing this for your long term happiness and mental health. 

 

• Wife & Arguments 

 

I have Italian grandparents and boy do i have a fiery temper, that being said it is no excuse to fly off the handle. 

 

I believe that it takes 2 people to argue, yes only one may be screaming but the other could be antagonising through body language, gestures or snide comments / sarcasm. 

 

I strongly suggest you try introspect and ask yourself if you are doing any of these things? If you are not sure Maby be more aware during the next busy up. 

 

People have triggers, my triggers are lies, disrespect and changing the topic during arguments. When I reach boiling point I tell my husband that I am at 100% and this conversation needs to be put on ice. If he starts getting worked up / shouts or becomes disrespectful I also put the conversation in ice. If putting the topic on ice is not possible I will either remove myself from the situation or ask him to take a breather. A good example happened recently at a Taufe, we got given pages to fill out and yes we started bickering over the answers. My husband would criticise all my ideas on what to write then criticise me for not having ideas because I then stopped giving input. He loves to cause scenes in public and I could see this going this way, I simply got up, grabbed the dog and and took it outside for a walk. No drama, no tears simply a change of situation. I got chatting to a fellow guest who was outside smoking, my husband cane out a bit later to see where I was. I was calm and because I had completely moved on so did he. Actions speak louder than words, I have left numerous parties involving my husband and his friends getting drunk as well as other occasions where my husband starts causing a scene. 

 

I have no problem being my honest, authentic self. I really believe it helps people understand as well as respect you. I don’t scream, I don’t shout, I don’t insult or stoop to lower level behaviour. I’m also not ashamed to say what I think / how I feel in a calm, polite way followed with an action. I no longer attend many events with my husband when there is excessive alcohol around or too many confrontational personalities. He attends everything and has a wonderful time and I have a wonderful time as well doing my own thing. 

 

 There is nothing wrong with anxiety or having a tough time from stress and because of that making it clear that further stress from attending some gathering or helping / hosting something is just not possible. 

 

If your wife still disrespects your wishes or point of view you need to show her with actions and consequences. An example being during an argument if she raises her voice and yells or says something abusive - you request that she lower her voice as well as refrain from personal attacks. If she continues, record her, I did that to my husband. He did not want to speak while being recorded, so I said you either speak to me in a civil way at a normal tone or I am recording you so that I can discuss with my therapist what is going on and how to address our issues as he refused to attend therapy. Another thing to do would be to leave the home and go for a walk or go into a separate room and make it clear that you will not communicate unless it’s in an adult way. 

 

You do have the power, the power to stand up for yourself, the power to be spoken to with respect as well as the power to not engage, to remove yourself from a violent / escalating situation. 

 

My husband gets mad when I refuse to discuss “hot topics” my answer is always when we can discuss this in a civil way, sure. But Untill then the answer is no. 

 

• choose your battles 

 

if your wife criticises you or is negative - this is a german cultural thing, I suggest choosing, choosing what topics mean something to you and what topics you will give her. Like if she thinks you changing a diaper wrong, is it really worth arguing or would it just be easier to listen to her opinion / advice and smile and try it. 

 

If your wife complains about cleaning the house / up after you instead of arguing back a possibility could be validating her feelings and agreeing on whatever solution she thinks is best. 

 

If your wife criticises your job - well then if you are invested and have strong feelings about her viewpoints - defend your position . 

 

If your MIL does something “bad” sure defend your position . 

 

If your wife screams & causes a scene, sure defend your position. 

 

My point is don’t set out to win everything, win what matters to you because letting your wife “win” what matters to her is actually quite a compromise and a very good step towards a better relationship whether that be as a married couple or Separated. 

 

P.S - life is not easy, married life is far from easy, no one has a perfect life and if they think they do they are lying / delusional. I sometimes think there is so much pressure on us as people to be perfect; perfect individuals, perfect partners, perfect parents **** it is just not realistic. 

 

I really suggest therapy / counselling as well as a lot of introspection and self love. 

 

You need to be comfortable in being unapologetically YOU, not someone’s idea if you but the real authentic you. It all starts with finding yourself, loving yourself, teaching others how to treat / interact with you and just living your life the way you want to. 

 

*** PPS - if you don’t like something - change it. That includes the clause in your freelance contract. Pre invoice if payment is delayed, stand up for yourself and live and create your best live. 

 

Peace and harmony to you and your family . 

 

 

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the helpful posts and kind words. My situation simmered since I last wrote, but never completely went away. I guess a large part of me is still expecting a split to happen and I'll be surprised if we make it together out of 2018, though you never know. I still have a few questions on a split/divorce in DE when a small child is involved:

  • if a parent moves out (most often the father) during the separation year, is it also advised to deregister too from the property or to remain there "Angemdeldet"? I'm just concerned how this could affect access to my daughter. She would be living in my flat (half owned with my wife) so during this phase I don't want to have any limitations going back to a flat which I own. Ultimately I'd like her to acknowledge my place as home just as much as anywhere else, but I concede that won't be easy if the mother always has priority.
  • would there be any tax offsetting if I were to deregister and register somewhere else, during this phase?
  • I'd most like have to keep up with mortgage repayments until the property is sold despite renting out a second household. Would I also be obliged to pay my half of the Nebenkosten, Internet connection, etc, even if I'm not living there?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 02/10/2018, 09:32:55, brookeb said:

any updates on this?

 

The situation is ongoing...there have been points since 2018 where we have come close to splitting up, and it's still a question of "when" rather than "if". If I'm honest, I'm scared, because I fear not seeing my daughter on regular basis simply because my wife would behave revengefully. In addition, I've very little idea how dads are treated by the Jugendamt and courts, so I need to find out more in this area too. I feel trapped, which is preventing me from ending it. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Legally.. you will be granted the standard "Every second weekend" from the Courts...

 

The JA are very "Pro Father" these days... 

 

Keep your hand on your wallet because as soon as the "extra cash" isnt available any more as you need your own Flat etc... the demands and threads/blackmail will start...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Legally.. you will be granted the standard "Every second weekend" from the Courts...

 

The JA are very "Pro Father" these days... 

How can it be in 2019 when we celebrate such things as the #metoo movement, is there such a stone age mentality in Germany to father's rights? That doesn't seem right.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, notfromhere said:

 

The situation is ongoing...there have been points since 2018 where we have come close to splitting up, and it's still a question of "when" rather than "if". If I'm honest, I'm scared, because I fear not seeing my daughter on regular basis simply because my wife would behave revengefully. In addition, I've very little idea how dads are treated by the Jugendamt and courts, so I need to find out more in this area too. I feel trapped, which is preventing me from ending it. 

 

From what I've heard, fathers usually have an uphill battle against the JA and courts. You may have to bend over backwards to keep your ex happy and grab every little morsel of visitation you can get.

 

1 minute ago, notfromhere said:

How can it be in 2019 when we celebrate such things as the #metoo movement, is there such a stone age mentality in Germany to father's rights? That doesn't seem right.

 

Germany isn't very modern when it comes to working mothers, full day daycare and school availability etc. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, LeonG said:

 

Germany isn't very modern when it comes to working mothers, full day daycare and school availability etc. 

 

Dont forget "Spite" too...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Go on then...   Tell us what you would like...

4 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Go on then...   Tell us what you would like...

13 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Legally.. you will be granted the standard "Every second weekend" from the Courts...

 

The JA are very "Pro Father" these days... 

In a Trennungsjahr, can it already be negotiated on say an approx 50-50 split of the time?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why ask me?... 

If you wish to have 50/50... then you would need to prove to the JA that this will not cause any distress at all to your childs daily routine and depending on her age.. she whill also need to have some say in the situation..

 

But from what I am reading between the lines, 50/50 is your wish and your estranged wife if dead set against it!...

 

Humble pie... get used to it..  

 

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If kid is Small kid usually goes to mum, if kid is older and dad is fun then dad has a Chance (ahem: Nintendo, Trips to the Shore,,,). If mum has been caught expressing a political view against the poltical View of the local JA then dad has a Chance, for example, if she is against immunization or maybe against gender mainstreaming or whatever the local Government Party which has JA control is pushing for children. The JA will select the Parent on politicial views to Match their own. HH JA ist very Strong SPD political platform, for example, but the JA in your area could be Controller by a different Party. Maybe find the political Leaning of the local JA in your area? 

 

JA is tries to get rid of one or more parents as it is their Business Model. Business Model of the huge 'helperindustry'.

If kid is sleeping at your place and not Hers 50% or more of the time then she loses money.

 

Maybe if you cannot get 50/50, as usually JA rejects it if one Parent does not want it (hence petititons to the Government are made now and then to try to introduce 2 Parent Model when good for the child even when one spouse does not want it), even if clearly better for the child), then I suggest to counteroffer this: she gets the money, kid sleeps more often at her place than yours, but you get to be on Kita/school Contact List and 2 or 3 days a week you and not her are the one involved at the school/Kita/Sports club where ever the child is weekdays and then you bring the child to the mum to sleep in the evening. 

 

Then she can't cry that the child has no home because of 50/50, and that she is not getting money from the Government and you. 

Will help you avoid parental aliention, that is a huge risk so needs to be prevented. There are spaces for two parents in school Records and both parents can be added to email lists. I always put my spouse on those Lists when he did not have SR so he would feel welcome as opposed to the usual situation which is thousands of men are being chronically bullied out of the daily lives of their children simply because the mum does not like the dad, or used the dad as a sperm Doner or ATM Maschine or both.

 

The DE fathers advocacy groups are today splintered and do not coordinate efforts on political law and custom change and to help each other on the ground so change is slow. If they Consolidated some of their websites and mailind lists then it would move faster.

 

JA? Expect to be Lied to and notes to be taken to put in your child's Stasi-like file with them and absolutely no help to be given to either you or your child. Expect the Verfahrensbeistand to do whatever the JA tells them to do. Expect the judge to do whatever the JA tells them to do. Expect the JA to help isolator the child, help put stone after stone in your way to be a Parent. 

 

The #Metoo Women had a MUCH better marketing campaign. And it was more of multiple Women against one man, here is is usually one Woman against one man. I am trying to see if affected parents can Start posting online naming the JA, Helper Industry, kid warehouses, and JA people who are doing this injustice.

 

That is, name their names, organizations, and City. This way many fathers could post about the same individuals who are abusing their power. This could make it more like the Metoo in terms of multiple persons hurt by on Person in power could add their posts together agierst that one person so as in Metro there would Start to be some at least social embarassment perhaps for some of the power abusers and perhaps fathers could start objecting to particular JA, Verfahrendsbeitand, judge; Gutachter... on the Basis of multiple complaints showing systematic bias.

 

The 2 Parent Model campaign in Germany has a dumb name that makes it sound as if the Goal is to make a child homeless as opposed to the Goal being two parents in the daily life of a child continuing to do what parents need to do. I am trying to get proponents to change the name form Wechsel to 2 Parent Model or something like that.  

 

If you are German and spouse is not then you have a Chance. If not, will be hard as per JA it is ipso facto child endangerment for a child of separated parents to have the Option of leaving the power realm of the DE JA. Better on Hartz IV and isolated in  a bad neighborhood in DE than living comfortably in a good neighborhood in another country is the View time and time again of the JA. 

 

Sometimes you get Lucky, but the Tide is (at least in HH, not sure how your location is: SPD, Men are the outsiders and bad (unless active in the SPD Party, SPD Party-controlled  or spouting actively the SPD political platform) for children, the mums need their peace (she will not say she needs peace but rather that the child neeeds peace, even though chidlren clearly feel sad when they do not have two parents in their lives and not at all at peace, this is the Mantra regurgitaed M-F thousands of times a day in German courts by the JA, Helper Industry, and muss all who want to take your kid and you money from you, you are someone to be robben in their eyes, so smile back and them and keep that happy peaceful smile on your face while knowing your'e looking in the faces of sadistic psychopaths who Profit by family destruction and all dance to the same tune thy have agreed on, they chat, decide which Parent to kick out or both, do it, and there is no legal recourse as their is no oversight, the EU knows the problem but DE is in the EU powerful so continues day after day a Thousand times a day in DE) and they only have peace by bullying their spouses out of the lives of the children. The JA does not require any ability to separate couple form paarten-level thinking. In fact the one who refuses to sepeare couple and Parent level thinking gets the Child. The Bully gets the child. 

 

So, if worst comes to worst, insist to be 2 or three days a week afternoons wherever your child as Umgang is to ensure you also have some Part of the child's daily life, which does not Happen if you see the child only starting friday afternoon or later, the weekday activities of the child are usually over by then. 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sonazeit, it sounds like you've had some very bad experiences. There's plenty that's wrong with the system -- I'll certainly agree with you there -- but it doesn't help your position if you let your assessment of it slip into an irrational rant.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Better on Hartz IV and isolated in  a bad neighborhood in DE than living comfortably in a good neighborhood in another country is the View time and time again of the JA.  "

Sigh. Keeping the child in the country they are currently located unless both parents agree is pretty much the law in any Western country, there's is nothing special about Germany here. Try taking a child out of the US against one parent's wish (ask Boris Becker about that one...).

 

And no, mad rants won't get you custody. 50% time is hard to organize (unless you really live the next street over) and also incurs additional costs as suddenly you have two parents with awkward childcare constraints - which if you are both working full time already won't matter, but it will certainly put a spanner in the works if not.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is irrational in the post?

 

What are the inaccuracies? 

 

The situation I posted is documented by Tens of thousands of legal cases in Germany in the past decade.

https://vater.franzjoerg.de

 

What exactly then ought this dad now do to ensure he stay a dad active in the life of his child? If you have the answer PLEASE post it and please tell also the Folks at the above link, they know thousands of men who also want to be active in the lives of their children. 

 

I gave the Poster a Synopsis of the current how it is situation in DE, which situation is not in line with German, EU, or UN law but rather with the SPD Party platform of more Single mother families, more children in full-time daycare, and more non-orphans in orphanages.

 

Logistics to co parenting is not a problem. Lack of will on the Part of a b users is. If you want to co parent then you move to where the child is even if it's just crashing on a Couch in a flat close to where the child is. With coparenting an Option despite an abuser's reluctance, children will be moved away from parents less often. 

 

I don't see how having two parents instead of one sCrews up taking care of a child. 

 

If you think two parents is bad for a child then go ahead and abandon your child as soon as you give birth, no one is Stopping you, but I would be sad thinking that your child does not have his or her mum as I believe that is a wonderful Part of life and gives a child solid roots.

 

I am one of those who think two parents for children are better than one and when there are grandparents and other family in the life of a child then even better.

 

Two parents working Part time will have Trouble taking care of a child if there are two parents in the Childs life? Must be different in the UK. In HH, two parents full time, Part-time, one Parent only working, all work out fine in terms of co parenting a child. 

 

The only obstacle in Germany is the abusive Parent. This abuse is rampant and State enforced with no legal recourse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sonazeit said:

What is irrational in the post?

 

7 hours ago, sonazeit said:

If mum has been caught expressing a political view against the poltical View of the local JA then dad has a Chance, for example, if she is against immunization

 

In the view of the majority of reasonable thinking people in Germany there is nothing rational to be found in the arguments of the anti-vax conspiracy theorist lobby and therefore to describe such a view as a political view would strike most peoplle as being highly irrational in and of itself.

 

The majority of people still think those who promote such vodoo nonsense to be at best ignorant if not selfishly and viciously antisocial insofar as the practical effect of their rejection of proven medical progress made over the last 150 years is already showing a return of potentially fatal childhood diseases, long thought to be defeated, to communities around the world.

 

7 hours ago, sonazeit said:

JA is tries to get rid of one or more parents as it is their Business Model.

 

The JA are not a commercial organization albeit they, like all government entities, do have a duty to minimize waste of public funds which may mean that, in the absence of public childrens care homes or orphanages, they have to put the supply of such alternatives as there may be out to tender in the free market. Theoretically they are supposed to select the bid which offers the best value whilst meeting the needs of the children for which they are responsible.

 

Whether a successful bidder actually does provide best value in practise may often not be provable for several years so it's quite probable that apparently scandalous profits may indeed have been made by commercial entities before the qualities of their performance comes to light.

 

IMO it does seem a bit irrational to suggest that that's a Business Model of the JA.

 

7 hours ago, sonazeit said:

Expect to be Lied to and notes to be taken to put in your child's Stasi-like file with them and absolutely no help to be given to either you or your child.

 

Telling people to expect to be lied to, raising the spectre of the Stasi and suggesting that the JA will offer absolutely no help to either parent or child hardly seem to be rational arguments.

 

The primary duty of the JA is to represent the interests of children and young people and it is not rational to assume that they would not need to keep an extensive detailed file on each of those for whom they may be responsible.

 

7 hours ago, sonazeit said:

I am trying to see if affected parents can Start posting online naming the JA, Helper Industry, kid warehouses, and JA people who are doing this injustice.

 

That is, name their names, organizations, and City.

 

In spite of the fact you have been living in Germany (and therefore the EU) for over 10 years already you appear to be completely out of touch with the actual laws of either Germany or the EU.

 

If you think there's anything at all rational about that part of your post you are in a worse state of mind than I would have thought.

 

7 hours ago, sonazeit said:

all who want to take your kid and you money from you, you are someone to be robben in their eyes, so smile back and them and keep that happy peaceful smile on your face while knowing your'e looking in the faces of sadistic psychopaths who Profit by family destruction and all dance to the same tune thy have agreed on, they chat, decide which Parent to kick out or both, do it, and there is no legal recourse as their is no oversight,

 

Of course there is legal recourse and the JA, in common with all public entities in Germany, are certainly subject to oversight.

 

However in order to have any hope of having ones own points considered by any public authority in Germany they should always be presented in a rational fact based format without any suggestion or accusation of bias or prejudice.

 

 Family court judges are very experienced in detecting the difference between seperating or divorcing parents who are willing to cooperate in the best interests of their child/ren and those who have brought their own Rosenkrieg into the court with them.

 

In the former case they are far less likely to defer to negative (Gutachter) opinions of child psychologists or social workers and recommendations of the JA which are based on those reports. In the latter case not so much.

 

2B

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have a way for the Poster to save his fatherhood and home?

He is asking for advice on what to do, what to expect. I believe Spider's post is accurate as to what to expect in terms of what the JA will allow the Poster at most. I think he has a Chance for more if he has political connections or alignment with the Party controlling his local JA.

What else would improve his chances when the JA is generally very against 2 Parent model when one Parent does not like it. 

90% of men lose their children when in the Poster's situation and get the standard SPD once every two weeks visiting permission until the mum decides to move the child farther away.

Do you know a way for him to prevent being abused this way?  I think it is sad that so many children don't have their dads in their daily lives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now