Hartz IV tenant wants Fristlose Kundigung

20 posts in this topic

Call me naive, but here  s my situation.

I have an Hartz IV claimant staying in my WG. It s a WG, my rental agency has always taken the rent from one tenant while there has been a revolving set of people going in and out,  and now I am the one on the contract, with the other three signatories having left long ago. The rental agency continued accepting rent payments from people who were not on the contracts but new tenants here.

A year ago I took a Hartz IV guy. My mistake. I told him the situation that there is no official permission to sublet (only a letter from a lawyer saying that since the house is too big and a WG I can sublet) a letter which was send to the rental agency that never replied even though the letter specified that without a non reply would be taken as consent, and he said ok.

he paid the rent for six months from his pocket money (the Amt kept asking for more documents or that s what he says) . In the end, he paid a reduced amount, and then nothing for the last two months. I was naive. he told me the amt was looking at it etc, etc...The amt told him to leave but he never left. Naively I agreed to help him telling him he could stay until the problem was resolved.

Now he wants a fitlose kundigung (eviction without notice) saying that the amt has been demanding that. The amt has never paid me any rent.

Otherwise, he ll go to a lawyer, contact the rental agency, and stay on indefinitely.

I am not sure about him now. I don t want to be naive again. 

A lawyer (meitverein) said that these were two separate contracts 1. me with the rental agency)  2. me with him.

Should I give him the FK? My earliest appointment with the Mietverehin is next month.

 

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1 hour ago, solomongrundy said:

Naively I agreed to help him telling him he could stay until the problem was resolved.

 

Number one rule of being a landlord is the moment a problem arises (assuming it's not just an issue with the building e.g. dripping tap) is you call in the heavy guns. While it's rare but if someone is vindictive and knows enough of the rules they can cause serious financial harm to a person.

 

I'm not that familiar with WG rental law but I'd consider telling him you'll give him a letter once his stuff is gone and he's given the keys back. It can simply state you're agreeing to let him go before the 3 months are up or alternatively write up a notice letter and date it to 3 months ago and have him sign it. Personally I'd be very careful with a  fristlose kundigung letter. The rules around this are fairly strict. 

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According to http://www.finanztip.de/fristlose-kuendigung-mietvertrag/ you may give a fristlose kündingung if your tenant did not pay the rent for 2 months in a row.  He may not have the funds to move on his own so he may be waiting for the amt to pay for his move and get him into another place they approve of but they may not be willing to do that if he is not getting evicted.

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Thank you for the replies. 

I am grateful. My fear is that with the   fristlose kundigung letter. he ll sue me and wait it out  for the courts. He is also going abroad for two months in a couple of weeks and I wonder if it s a trick to tie me up while he keeps the room. Right now the documents he has are the original contract for this WG, his sub contract letter, and the letter from the lawyer that says that I am allowed to sublet, a letter to which the rental agency never replied. 

He says he ll contact the rental agency and they ll come after me for illegally subletting the place though the rental agency accepted rent payments (one of us pays, the rest pay to him) from tenants who were not on the  original contract. Can he send them a copy of his sub lease and do me damage?

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49 minutes ago, solomongrundy said:

Thank you for the replies. 

I am grateful. My fear is that with the   fristlose kundigung letter. he ll sue me and wait it out  for the courts. He is also going abroad for two months in a couple of weeks and I wonder if it s a trick to tie me up while he keeps the room. Right now the documents he has are the original contract for this WG, his sub contract letter, and the letter from the lawyer that says that I am allowed to sublet, a letter to which the rental agency never replied. 

He says he ll contact the rental agency and they ll come after me for illegally subletting the place though the rental agency accepted rent payments (one of us pays, the rest pay to him) from tenants who were not on the  original contract. Can he send them a copy of his sub lease and do me damage?

 

Your lawyer said you were ok to sublet so if you did not feel that you were ok to sublet, you shouldn't have done it.  As the agency never replied, you can assume that they allowed you with their silence and if he tries to complain about you to them, they could at the most forbid you from subletting in the future.

 

I don't see how he could sue you for giving him a fristlose kündigung based on not having paid rent for two months because that is allowed.  At the most, he could write a letter protesting it for whatever reason but why would he do that if he is asking for it?  Have you asked him why he needs it?  I assume it has something to do with getting the job center to move him to another place because I guess the job center has some kind of problem with this current arrangement and does not want to pay his rent if he stays at your place.  Why do you think he's out to get you?  Why would he not want to move to some place where the job center will pay his rent?  It's not going to cost him anything if they do.

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Thank you

 I drew up a letter saying that we are parting because he cant pay the rent and that I wish him all the best, but he refuses to sign it along with me. The letter says that he has not paid his proper rent for months, and no rent for the last two months and that we are parting. I asked the Mietverein and they said it was ok for the Arbeitsamt, but I increasingly think he wants an eviction notice that he can contest. No idea why.

I d be grateful for any help. 

Should I sign just by myself?

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3 hours ago, solomongrundy said:

Thank you

 I drew up a letter saying that we are parting because he cant pay the rent and that I wish him all the best, but he refuses to sign it along with me. The letter says that he has not paid his proper rent for months, and no rent for the last two months and that we are parting. I asked the Mietverein and they said it was ok for the Arbeitsamt, but I increasingly think he wants an eviction notice that he can contest. No idea why.

I d be grateful for any help. 

Should I sign just by myself?

 

There is something like the Mieterverein for landlords. You could ask their advice. However, you are in your full right to give him a Kündigung based on him not paying rent. You don't have to be nice about it. He doesn't have to sign it but you can make him sign that he has received it. If you do it you should include what he owes and since when he didn't pay rent. It's not like he can sue you even if the Kündigung were illegal. He can just write a letter stating that and that he's not leaving.

 

Although normally you would have to warn him to pay the rent before you give him notice. You could give him a letter now to pay his debts within a week or you will evict him. No money in a week and you can give him notice.  Or you give him the warning letter backdated and the notice at the same time. It's what he wants.

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I spoke to him again. He says he won t sign and will talk to a lawyer.

My fear is that  he just wants to keep the room  for himself since he has not paid anything and an eviction process is long and complicated.

 If I give him a  Kündigung  could he get the rental agency to come after me on the grounds of "illegal" sublet, by giving them a copy of his sublet contract? This contract  predates the lawyer s letter.

The place has always been a WG. I only asked the lawyer to write the rental agency a few months ago, but before that a lot of people who were not on the contract stayed here and the rental agency accepted regular rent payments from them, including nearly two years from one whose name was not on the contract but who stayed here.

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What did he say he wants to talk to a lawyer for?  He is already staying there without paying rent so if he wants to continue staying there, he doesn't need you to give him notice.  He can just continue living there as he is doing now.  As you said, you are not going to kick him out anyway because the eviction process is long and complicated.  However, if you did want to kick him out, you would have to give notice.  If he still doesn't leave, you could apply to the courts to boot him out but as you said, it's long and complicated, can also get expensive.  The alternative is that you let him continue to live there 

 

If he wants to report you to the rental company for illegal sublet, he could do that regardless of whether you give him the notice.  However, if he did, that doesn't mean he gets to continue staying there for free.  If the rental company decided to do anything at all, they might try to kick you both out.

 

 

 

 

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how the heck can he afford a lawyer if he can't even cover his portion of the rent?

 

I agree with the OPs sense of weirdness about this.  Something is strange here. 

 

On 10/25/2017, 11:44:47, LeonG said:

 

I don't see how he could sue you for giving him a fristlose kündigung based on not having paid rent for two months because that is allowed.

 

Isn't there a loophole for "hard luck" cases?  Regardless of whether he is certain to lose or not, that doesn't prevent him from contesting it and extending his stay until it goes to court, right?

 

Maybe OP can offer to visit the amt with the subletter to explain the situation and get direct information about what paperwork they need from him and why.  If they don't recognize his current abode as "legit" I don't know why a kündigung would be important to them?  maybe it is important, but trusting this guy's word seems unwise.  Something is weird about it.

 

eta:  alternately, OP could call the amt and ask.  I don't know if they'd tell him anything or not, but maybe worth a try

 

 

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35 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

Isn't there a loophole for "hard luck" cases?  Regardless of whether he is certain to lose or not, that doesn't prevent him from contesting it and extending his stay until it goes to court, right?

 

Maybe OP can offer to visit the amt with the subletter to explain the situation and get direct information about what paperwork they need from him and why.  If they don't recognize his current abode as "legit" I don't know why a kündigung would be important to them?  maybe it is important, but trusting this guy's word seems unwise.  Something is weird about it.

 

eta:  alternately, OP could call the amt and ask.  I don't know if they'd tell him anything or not, but maybe worth a try

 

There is some kind of loophole for people who are disabled, have disabled children or are elderly and have lived in the same place for a couple of decades maybe but this guy is Hartz iv and they will pay his rent in another place and they will even help him move.

 

The amt could be saying, hey, this guy is costing us nothing right now so why should we help him move and pay his rent in another place if he's not getting evicted.  The reason he doesn't want to sign the letter could be because that he wants to get evicted in a way that it seems real and not seem like he's moving out on good terms with his landlord.

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but "coulds" don't answer the OPs concerns.  I think he should contact the amt directly to find out exactly what's needed as right now, all anyone can do is imagine 

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12 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

but "coulds" don't answer the OPs concerns.  I think he should contact the amt directly to find out exactly what's needed as right now, all anyone can do is imagine 

 

He sure can try asking at the amt but I don't think that they will give him any information on the guys case.  Privacy issues etc.  The guy could take him along to the job center as his "beistand" (helping friend) but I doubt that he wants to take his evicting (he wishes) landlord with him to the amt and make it look like they're the best of buddies.  But sure, he can ask.

 

He could also discuss it with a lawyer and then decide.  However, I don't see that he has much of an option since the other one would be continuing to let him live there for free.  If he writes the letter, what's the guy going to do to him that he isn't already doing?

 

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On 10/25/2017, 3:19:07, solomongrundy said:

Now he wants a fitlose kundigung (eviction without notice) saying that the amt has been demanding that. The amt has never paid me any rent.

 

well the amt wouldn't have to verify any personal info about the guy to answer general questions like "is a kundigung required if the amt is not paying the rent for a harz IV recipient?"  or similar.

 

really, it's just a basic reality check

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I am sorry for the late reply. I thought I d update after something happened.

he agreed to sign an agreement that says he is moving out Nov.1, since he owes two months full rent and four months part rent, and that we have come to this mutual agreement.

However, he is still in his room, and I don t see any signs of him moving out. He says he can afford a lawyer because unemployed people can get legal help for 15 euros per hour based on a letter from the amt. I don t know if this is true.

Are there any options available to me?

I am very thankful to those who replied.

 

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How is this agreement titled?

Usually something like this is called a Mietaufhebungvertrag (mutual agreement to terminate a rental).

This person then no longer is a tenant, and has lost all legal rights to stay there. German rental laws no longer cover him.

I would tell him that, and that he needs to leave NOW.

Also, talk to a lawyer ***tomorrow***, show him the agreement. Depending on the agreement, there is a possibility you can have have the ex-tenant forcefully removed.

Even if you have to take him to court (Raeumungsklage), you definitely will win this one.

 

But consult that lawyer ASAP!

 

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Any delay on your side will only result in him staying longer. You need to get the legal ball rolling whether he is entitled to free or cheap legal advice or not.

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Hi, 

 

Updating the topic again. He left on November 1.   That s the lesson I learnt from this one. If someone with Hartz IV comes to rent make sure that the papers are in order. The Amt insisted that he give an official permission from the landowner/rental agency allowing him to sublet. He stalled, stayed on, and me, in my naivety, allowed him to. I guess he had genuine problems, but the take away is that if someone o H4 wants to sublet, be sure that everything should be nitpicking right. And, harsh as it may be, it s best to refuse. After all, the Amt will take care of them. 

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I am so glad to hear this worked out without any additional drama.

 

Must be a huge load off  your mind - congrats!

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