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Homeopathy and physics

111 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, theGman said:

So why pick and choose? Why do you trust medical doctors for cancer but not something else?

For the specific case of Chronic Fatigue?  Because medical doctors have no answer.  They laugh and call it the "yuppie flu".  Say it is all in your head and you should see a shrink.   Just like they initialled called HIV/AIDS the "gay flu".  Remember that?  Of course I am not equating HIV with Chronic Fatigue, but the response (or lack thereof) and the arrogance are similar.  

 

1 hour ago, theGman said:

Possible. I'm not sure it's a bad thing. Of course science/medicine needs to continue improving and we should all try to make sure it does. But sympathising with homeopathy or alternative medicine is completely the wrong answer in my opinion. It's dangerous. It's filling the gaps. 

How do you know if it has never been tested?  Again, the example I proviided.  Medical cases have shown that it could work, but no one ever bothered to actucally run a study.  Does that make it dangerous?  You really think that someone suffering with a life altering ailment should just sit back and wait for the Gods in White to finally decide that they can be bothered to try to find a cure? Especially when many of these ailments have been known for decades?  Believe me, should you ever - God forbid - come down with a chronic condition for which there is no diagnosis, no treatment, no cure, and not even very good explanations, you WILL try diets, alternative medicine, or whatever you can find. The alternative to do nothing is much more dangerous.  People with chronic conditions who have no hope tend not to have long life expectancies.  

 

2 hours ago, theGman said:

Yes, this can happen. But it is a consequence of a system. A necessary system I think. Professionals cannot cater to the whim of every patient. Some will of course, as it later transpires, have a real problem. Many will not however. Money and time is not unlimited. They need to act logically and efficiently based on the best proven knowledge at the time. Unfortunately it takes time. People will suffer in the meantime. That's life unfortunately. But again. Homeopathy is not the answer.

 

Again, it is very arrogant of you to say that you KNOW that every alternative medicine is definitely not the answer.  That is not even scientific thinking.  It is only possible to say that one solution is more probably a better answer than another.  Especially if the tests have not been done.  Then, the only thing that you can say is that you do not know . not even the probability. 

 

The whim of the patient?  Seriously?  Did you not call me arrogant just a little while ago?  See, that is exactly the sort of attitude that drives people to alternative medicine.  Read up on Chronic Fatigue, Lyme Diesease, Fibromyalga, or any number of patient "whims" and see what real people have to say about the sort of attititudes and lack of treatment and respect that they have seen.  They don't have time to deal with my "whims"?  Strange, they seem to have the time to bill me for it.  

2 hours ago, theGman said:

We live in a capitalist society. That's the deal. Raise awareness of the need for more money for fundamental research if you want to help.

No actually we live in a mixed society.  Much funding for basic research comes from government grants and NGOs.  Corporate funding for research is troublesome (cigarette companies?  Paxil?).  No society is purely capitalist (fire, police, public schools, etc.) If you understand basic economics, then you know that you can tweak production and funding to maximize whatever output that you want.  Most of economics concentrates on maximizing profit.  However, you can also choose to maximize employment, or health outcomes, or whatever you want - or combine a mixture of output and profit.  The problem with corporations is that they are legally bound to maximize profit for their shareholders.  Maximizing profit does not maximize health outcomes.  Health care should NOT be a purely capatilist model because the price of the product (health) is inelastic and is therefore open to abuse (ala Martin Shkreli).

 

12 hours ago, theGman said:

 

It's one example. That is all. I could find more. It still doesn't mean alternative medicine is the answer, or should be sympathised with.

 

One example that has millions of people suffering from it.  I can find lots more examples if you wish.  The health care discussion boards are a good source.

 

12 hours ago, theGman said:

Yes and no. It could also mean (and this is 99% of the time going to be the case) that it has been tested and cannot be proven to work. But even for the 1% - why on earth trust anything that hasn't been tested yet. My mind boggles. It just makes no sense.

Who says it hasn't been tested?  I hasn't been test by a scientifically and medically acceptable test because that costs a ton of money and who is going to pay for it?  Patients are forced to test it on themselves and the dubious results posted to bulletin boards.  It is a shame that they have to resort to that.  You don't seem to grasp that many patients HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE:  I am very skeptical of most alternative medicine, but have found some do actually work.  Because I don't like publishing personal information (especially about my personal health situation) I choose not to share the details, but in at least one case, I went to two doctors, a specialist who among other things sent me to get an MRI all with the result that they could not help me.  My insurance company got a big bill though.   A chiropracter solved my problem in a single visit.  My wife had a similar experience.  

 

Also, if you look closely at pharmaceutical testing, you will also have to admit that that is hardly a golden standard.  Negative results are suppressed (Paxil) and many other drugs (particularly anti-depressants) are hardly better than a placebo.  So testing is not the be-all end-all.  

 

12 hours ago, theGman said:

Research is open source. Anyone can look up anything for yourself. If it has been scientifically tested and proven not to work then no I wouldn't use it. Why would I? If it hasn't been tested yet, then I would look at whatever evidence there might be out there and come to by best conclusion. If it's just hearsay and old wives tales then again, why would I bother?

 

So you are saying there is no absolute truth?  A cure only works once it has been tested and doesn't work before?  Now that is mind-boggling.  

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8 hours ago, Marianne013 said:

See, I'm not keen on doctors, state or private. Most (not all) of them seem to dread the patient that comes in with unclear symptoms and they seem to lose interest pretty quickly. The ones that don't will often admit that they are out of ideas and/or out of their area of expertise.

I suffer from chronic pain, which started with pregnancy, but the cause of which has never been identified. Last year at this time I was almost suicidal. (It's been going on for a decade now, sometimes better, sometimes worse and sometimes much much worse.) And yet, I have never considered 'alternative medicine'. It just can't help. I occasionally do things that I know will make me feel better even though *I am aware* that the effect is purely psychological (psychological effects are still real), as there is no mechanism that could work on a physiological basis. I'm also on fairly strong anti-depressants. Anything not to jump off a bridge.

When I have a cold I drink hot milk with honey, because that's what my mother used to give so, so it creates some kind of warm, fuzzy feeling which makes me feel better, but for something where only symptomatic treatment exists, this is clearly the way forward. But I don't claim it cures my cold, because there is just no scientific basis for it.

I am also a physicist :-)

As a physicist, and a skeptic, you may be interested in the following studies:

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/acupuncture-provides-true-pain-relief-in-study/

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080227/antidepressants-no-better-than-placebo#1

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11 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

For the specific case of Chronic Fatigue?  Because medical doctors have no answer.  They laugh and call it the "yuppie flu".  Say it is all in your head and you should see a shrink.  

 

Actually there are several health issues which can cause a chronic fatigue. for example iron deficiency. And a simple blood analysis will reveal it.

But nooo, you go straight to the expensive water sellers!

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2 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Actually there are several health issues which can cause a chronic fatigue. for example iron deficiency. And a simple blood analysis will reveal it.

But nooo, you go straight to the expensive water sellers!

Actually, noooo.  I went to many many medical doctors first and every single frekin one tested me for anemia even though I told them that I have been tested dozens of times already.  This is exactly the sort of stupid assumptions that I am used to dealing with.  

Next up - Have you tried getting more sleep?  

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2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Funny, mine would be "aren't you getting old?".

Chronic Fatigue is more likely to impact people between the age of 20 and 40, so no.  That would also be another asinine statement.

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I

28 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Chronic Fatigue is more likely to impact people between the age of 20 and 40, so no.  That would also be another asinine statement.

Errr... no.

 

Quote
  • Age. Chronic fatigue syndrome can occur at any age, but it most commonly affects people in their 40s and 50s.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/basics/risk-factors/con-20022009

 

From what I've read, it's one of those generic symptoms that can have very different causes, like IBS. It doesn't mean it's not understood, it just means that a patient complains and for his symptom there could be several different causes, so it becomes hard to diagnose. Some of the causes can be found and treated, others not so much. And yes, stress and other psychological problems can be a cause, there won't be a magic pill to solve it (or magic water!).

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On 9/7/2017, 5:22:44, zwiebelfisch said:

, talk to your priest about your problems and he will pray for you.  Its free as far as I know, and its essentially identical to most alternative "medicine".

Take your hat off your head and put it on the ground, someone who feels as bad as you do might put a nickel into it.

There is nothing free in life, not even a prayer.

It seems there are a lot of afflictions around with which most people don't know what to do with or where it came from. Now that smoking is out of fashion, drinking should be banned, excessive sex and all other forms of abusing you body or mind should be avoided and proper intake of oxygen should be taught and exercised and you may forget most of your 'Leiden".

But who is to say? most people waste 10 to 20 years of the most happy time of their life on learning non essential reading and writing (and having fun) and never hear anything about their body or finances until their nose is pushed into the discomfort of daily life. ha, that is modernity, but still has not brought forth the pill of getting younger than older. I have outlived my parents by about 20 years and getting there where they were when they hit the bucket. Can't do anything about it, so  mote it be.

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9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I

Errr... no.

 

 

From what I've read, it's one of those generic symptoms that can have very different causes, like IBS. It doesn't mean it's not understood, it just means that a patient complains and for his symptom there could be several different causes, so it becomes hard to diagnose. Some of the causes can be found and treated, others not so much. And yes, stress and other psychological problems can be a cause, there won't be a magic pill to solve it (or magic water!).

Auctually, there is a defined set of symptoms that determine the difference between chronic fatigue (actually now known as Myalgic encephalopathy) including flu-like symptoms followed by life-altering fatigue and post-exertional malaise, but I have the feeling that explaining that to someone like you would be a rather large waste of time.  The study that said it was psychsomatic has been debunked over and over again but, like the anti-vaxxer study, it maintains its zombie existance.

 

Fatigue is vague and can be the due to many sources.  Myalgic Encephalopathy is most likely due to one source, but we will have to wait another generation to find out for sure due to attitudes like yours.  

 

9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I

Errr... no.

  Um, yes. 

 

CFS/ME can affect anyone, including children. It's more common in women, and tends to develop between your mid-20s and mid-40s. 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Chronic-fatigue-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

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6 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

Auctually, there is a defined set of symptoms that determine the difference between chronic fatigue (actually now known as Myalgic encephalopathy) including flu-like symptoms followed by life-altering fatigue and post-exertional malaise, but I have the feeling that explaining that to someone like you would be a rather large waste of time.  The study that said it was psychsomatic has been debunked over and over again but, like the anti-vaxxer study, it maintains its zombie existance.

 

Fatigue is vague and can be the due to many sources.  Myalgic Encephalopathy is most likely due to one source, but we will have to wait another generation to find out for sure due to attitudes like yours.  

 

  Um, yes. 

 

CFS/ME can affect anyone, including children. It's more common in women, and tends to develop between your mid-20s and mid-40s. 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Chronic-fatigue-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

Err... no again.

"Tends to develop.. " and "... more likely to impact..." are not the same thing. And you said the later.

 

And another source:

Quote

The illness is reported to occur more frequently in persons between the ages of 40 and 59.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1079668/

 

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