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Homeopathy and physics

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4 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

As far as scientific testing is concerned, there I am also skeptical about the medical community.  There are fortunes to be made by proving that a particular medicine can cure or treat a particular ailment, but who is going to pay for very expensive testing of a plant or a diet?  Where is the money to be made on that?  I hear that none of the homeopathic treatments have been proven.  Have they ever been tested?  And by whom?  

 

Ach, come on now. Of course homeopathic treatments have been tested. Scientists test everything they can, it's what they do. I'm sure there is more money to be had by proving homeopathic treatments than medical treatments, the ingredient is only water after all. Here are some meta studies that took a minute to find:

 

The Lancet

European Journal of Cancer

Australian National Health and Medical Research Council

 

It's placebo, a kind ear, some well earned rest, luck, timing, call it whatever. People have sworn to me that it works on babies. I don't know what to say. Whatever it is, it's not the water that's doing it. If water had memory, and the more dilute the solution the better, then a good old drop of tap water is all one needs to have the memory of everything in ones system.

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1 hour ago, gaberlunzi said:

Have you ever heard of the German saying: der Glaube kann Berge versetzen?

Kann der aber ned :D

 

Faith is the same placebo effect. And placebo effect is about "switching on" own body's immune system, which can be achieved also by other means, not only pseudo-treatment or religion: self-motivation and sports would work, too. If anyone can only be motivated by magic pill/imaginable creature idea, well, let them try this. But own immune system is very limited in capacity.

 

 

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6 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Of course?

 

If at this moment there is no treatment, then there is no treatment. You simply live your life and die, that's it. A couple of posts ago I provided an example what the doctors do when they get untreatable disease themselves.

 

If you turn to homeopaths instead you will die anyway, but also waste that little time that you have on bullshit "treatment".

Yes, of course.  If you have a chronic condition for which there is no accepted scientific explanation and which has destroyed your life, you will turn to whatever gives you hope. Homeopaths, witch doctors, exorcists, whatever.  It is either that or to give up - which many people unfortunately do.  The suicide statistics are very high among the chronically ill. I am not talking about your example with cancer, that is relatively well understood bythe medical community.  As I said, if I had cancer, I would go to a medical doctor.  

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7 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I am perfectly ok to pay money to pharma industry for not using leeches. Disgusting.

But you would be happy to pay big money for Hirudin extract.

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5 hours ago, theGman said:

 

Ach, come on now. Of course homeopathic treatments have been tested. Scientists test everything they can, it's what they do. I'm sure there is more money to be had by proving homeopathic treatments than medical treatments, the ingredient is only water after all. Here are some meta studies that took a minute to find:

 

The Lancet

European Journal of Cancer

Australian National Health and Medical Research Council

 

It's placebo, a kind ear, some well earned rest, luck, timing, call it whatever. People have sworn to me that it works on babies. I don't know what to say. Whatever it is, it's not the water that's doing it. If water had memory, and the more dilute the solution the better, then a good old drop of tap water is all one needs to have the memory of everything in ones system.

I guess we are using different terminology.  I should have said "alternative medicine" rather than homeopathy. Home remedies, etc. 

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11 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

I guess we are using different terminology.  I should have said "alternative medicine" rather than homeopathy. Home remedies, etc. 

 

My same answer applies. Science tests anything it can get it's hands on. It's what it does.

A university friend of mine travels to remote corners of the earth researching local ("alternative) medicines and remedies. Testing the plants and and animals and methods and so on. It's how a lot of western medicine starts it's journey. Again, if you want to be cynical, there is a lot of money to be made from finding an obscure plant that can cure a disease or whatever. There are always stories on the news of "scientists find remote mountain flower that could hold the cure to diabetes" or whatever.

It's just a personal gripe of mine when people say "well are people even looking into this" or "are scientists even researching it". Yes, yes they are. Constantly. Most of them are researching things neither you or I will get the time in our lives to even hear of.

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55 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

My same answer applies. Science tests anything it can get it's hands on. It's what it does.

A university friend of mine travels to remote corners of the earth researching local ("alternative) medicines and remedies. Testing the plants and and animals and methods and so on. It's how a lot of western medicine starts it's journey. Again, if you want to be cynical, there is a lot of money to be made from finding an obscure plant that can cure a disease or whatever. There are always stories on the news of "scientists find remote mountain flower that could hold the cure to diabetes" or whatever.

It's just a personal gripe of mine when people say "well are people even looking into this" or "are scientists even researching it". Yes, yes they are. Constantly. Most of them are researching things neither you or I will get the time in our lives to even hear of.

The cost of bring a prescription drug to market is $2.6 billion.  http://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/11/Tufts-Study-Finds-Big-Rise.html

 

How much money does your "university friend" get to study plants?  Also, you cannot patent a plant.  In addition, there are treatments that involve more than just finding the right chemical components in a plant or animal.  

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9 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

The cost of bring a prescription drug to market is $2.6 billion.  http://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/11/Tufts-Study-Finds-Big-Rise.html

 

Your point being?

 

9 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

How much money does your "university friend" get to study plants?  Also, you cannot patent a plant.  In addition, there are treatments that involve more than just finding the right chemical components in a plant or animal.  

 

I don't get your point here either? But to answer anyway.

I assume she doesn't make that much. Scientists generally aren't paid a lot.

No, you cannot patent a plant (scientists don't patent anyway) but you can study a plant. If the research is for business purposes then you can monetise these studies by makings products out of what has been learnt.

Indeed, some treatments don't involve medicine at all. A cold compress for example.

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10 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

Your point being?

 

 

I don't get your point here either? But to answer anyway.

I assume she doesn't make that much. Scientists generally aren't paid a lot.

No, you cannot patent a plant (scientists don't patent anyway) but you can study a plant. If the research is for business purposes then you can monetise these studies by makings products out of what has been learnt.

Indeed, some treatments don't involve medicine at all. A cold compress for example.

My point being that even if there are tests being done for alternative medicine, that the total sum spent is probably less than has been spent to bring Rogaine to market. 

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But that's because alternative medicine doesn't come to market. That's the definition of it*. It's something that has not been proven to work. If alternative medicine comes to market then it's called medicine. Why spend $2.6 billion on something that isn't proven to work.

 

Alternative medicine -> Not proven to work -> Alternative medicine

Alternative medicine -> Proven to work -> Research + investment ($2.6 Billion) -> Medicine

 

* "Alternative medicine – or fringe medicine – includes practices claimed to have the healing effects of medicine but which are disproven, unproven, impossible to prove, or are excessively harmful in relation to their effect; and where the scientific consensus is that the therapy does not, or cannot, work because the known laws of nature are violated by its basic claims; or where it is considered so much worse than conventional treatment that it would be unethical to offer as treatment." - Wikipedia

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5 minutes ago, theGman said:

But that's because alternative medicine doesn't come to market. That's the definition of it*. It's something that has not been proven to work. If alternative medicine comes to market then it's called medicine. Why spend $2.6 billion on something that isn't proven to work.

 

Alternative medicine -> Not proven to work -> Alternative medicine

Alternative medicine -> Proven to work -> Research + investment ($2.6 Billion) -> Medicine

 

* "Alternative medicine – or fringe medicine – includes practices claimed to have the healing effects of medicine but which are disproven, unproven, impossible to prove, or are excessively harmful in relation to their effect; and where the scientific consensus is that the therapy does not, or cannot, work because the known laws of nature are violated by its basic claims; or where it is considered so much worse than conventional treatment that it would be unethical to offer as treatment." - Wikipedia

Is using vinegar to cure hiccups proven not to work or is it already medicine?  Your blind trust in the medical community to determine what is and what is not is rather naive.  There is more that we do not know about the human body and disease than we do know.  There are any number of major disease and syndromes where the current state of medicine has no solution and do not seem particularly interested in finding one.  Market driven medicine will give us Viagra and Rogaine, but is not particularly interested in Chronic Fatigue.    

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55 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

How much money does your "university friend" get to study plants?  Also, you cannot patent a plant.  In addition, there are treatments that involve more than just finding the right chemical components in a plant or animal.  

 

Having worked briefly in pharma research I can tell you that the amount spent researching "plants" is mind bendingly huge.  Every fungus, plant, animal and bit of dirt that is from somewhere unusual is tested.  Seriously, all of them.  That bit of fuff from behind your fridge?  Its (or rather a bit like it) been tested. 

 

A plant in and of itself may not be patentable (in fact see below) but plant derive pharmaceutics certainly can.

 

Actually some plants can be patented, for example https://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/patent-basics/types-patent-applications/general-information-about-35-usc-161

but I understand the point.  You wrongly believe that because a company cannot patent the pineapple, that they are not interested in finding out if pineapples contain a chemical that could cure cancer.

 

8 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

but is not particularly interested in Chronic Fatigue.    

 

Do you have any idea what size market there is for chronic fatigue?  Anyone who could cure it would have a license to print money in pretty much the whole of the developed work for a decade.  The pharma industry *love* vague hard to pin down diseases which a lot of people suffer from especially chronic stuff which might need ongoing treatment.

 

13 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Is using vinegar to cure hiccups proven not to work or is it already medicine? 

 

It is scientifically supported, but I think people would normally call it a medical treatment rather than medicine per se.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25775370

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1 hour ago, BradinBayern said:

you cannot patent a plant.

 

Doesn't the Monsanto company do just that with their genetically modified plants ?

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8 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

Do you have any idea what size market there is for chronic fatigue?  Anyone who could cure it would have a license to print money in pretty much the whole of the developed work for a decade.  The pharma industry *love* vague hard to pin down diseases which a lot of people suffer from especially chronic stuff which might need ongoing treatment.

Not only do they not have a cure for it, they don't have a test for it, don't understand what causes it, and most MDs will tell you it is a psychological issue because there was one bad study that said so years ago that has since been debunked.  Funding for Chronic Fatigue has been ridiculously low.  Don't believe me?  Believe the Institute of Medicine's conclusion:

 

"Remarkably little research funding has been made available to study the etiology, pathophysiology, and effective treatment of this disease, especially given the number of people affected,"   

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1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

It is scientifically supported, but I think people would normally call it a medical treatment rather than medicine per se.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25775370

Not actually a study but rather a case description, but whatevs.  Great now do doctors now prescribe vinegar (which according to this study is more effective) or do they prescribe "chlorpromazine, metoclopramide, haloperidol, and baclofen"?  Were the " further studies [that] should explore the potential role of vinegar in relieving hiccups in advanced heavily treated cancer patients" ever conducted?  Seems like it would be a huge cost savings and patients would be helped.  Hmm, why do you suppose that didn't happen?  Perhaps the makers of chlorpromazine, metoclopramide, haloperidol, and baclofen wouldn't be happy to see their sales descrease because of something that nearly every household has in their cupboards?  Thank you for giving me another example of how the medical community has failed us.  

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Instead of complaining about homeopaths and alternative medicine, the medical community could do something about it.  Do a better job.  Listen to patients.  

 

Don't get me started about the initial reaction to the HIV/AIDS epidemic.  On the other hand the reaction to Ebola outbreak was swift and seems to be effective (once it threatened the West anyway and if one ignores that fact that Ebola has been known since 1976) .

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1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

You wrongly believe that because a company cannot patent the pineapple, that they are not interested in finding out if pineapples contain a chemical that could cure cancer.

 

 

More precisely the company would not patent that pineapple but instead the way it extracts that chemical agent from the pineapple.

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Just now, BradinBayern said:

Not actually a study but rather a case description, but whatevs.  Great now do doctors now prescribe vinegar (which according to this study is more effective) or do they prescribe "chlorpromazine, metoclopramide, haloperidol, and baclofen"?  Were the " further studies [that] should explore the potential role of vinegar in relieving hiccups in advanced heavily treated cancer patients" ever conducted?  Seems like it would be a huge cost savings and patients would be helped.  Hmm, why do you suppose that didn't happen?  Perhaps the makers of chlorpromazine, metoclopramide, haloperidol, and baclofen wouldn't be happy to see their sales descrease because of something that nearly every household has in their cupboards?

 

I doubt many doctors will actually presecribe vinegar, they will more likely suggest the patient just try it.  It is possible that vinegar will be packed up in sterile packages with standardised acidity and sold at inflated prices for the medical market, in fact I assume it is already available though I admit I have never heard of it being presecribed.  

 

3 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Thank you for giving me another example of how the medical community has failed us.  

 

Failure is a bit strong, its not exactly on a level with thalidomide.  A minor ailment turns out (probably) to be treatable by household products, news at 10.  In further news people with a headache can often be cured by generic asprin at almost zero profit to Big Pharma.  

 

Modern medicne isnt perfect.  Nothing is.  But this paranoid delusion that its all a big conspiracy isnt rooted in fact.

 

2 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Instead of complaining about homeopaths and alternative medicine, the medical community could do something about it.  Do a better job.  Listen to patients.

 

Sure, the medical profession could do much better.  But you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  The solution is not snake oil and quacks.

 

Just now, kato said:

 

More precisely the company would not patent that pineapple but instead the way it extracts that chemical agent from the pineapple.

 

No man, you dont get it, its the chemtrails and the vaccines. They are out to get us!  They are turning the frogs gay.

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1 hour ago, Jonny said:

 

Doesn't the Monsanto company do just that with their genetically modified plants ?

 

Not just monsanto, it is common practice for plant breeders of all kinds (including organic).  No not all plant breeders do it, but it is far from unusual.

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21 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Great now do doctors now prescribe vinegar (which according to this study is more effective) or do they prescribe "chlorpromazine, metoclopramide, haloperidol, and baclofen"? 

So people go to the doctor for hiccups?  

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