Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Homeopathy and physics

111 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Jonny said:

@Joanie I'm sorry for your losses. I would be angry at someone charging a lot of money per month to a dying person and giving them false hope when there is none. But I believe that homeopathy here is paid for by some health insurance. It may be quackery but I'm not sure it's a get rich quick scheme. 

 

Also keep in mind that many people have put their faith in western medicine (such as chemotherapy) and died just the same. My friend told me that when his father had cancer, he believed it was the chemotherapy that eventually killed him. Have you looked at the efficacy of chemotherapy ? Not all Western medicine is a magic bullet and until it is, people will turn to alternative therapies when they can.

 

 

I have looked at the efficacy of chemotherapy.  In great detail. My mother indeed died from her chemotherapy, so i understand your friends account and believe it.  But the fact remains that her body was already in a weaker state, it would have been one thing or the other that would have eventually killed her.   In cases of advanced terminal cancer, there is sometimes no hope at all and you try whatever you can, using the data at hand, but often it is better to not induce suffering (i.e. chemo) in efforts to hold on to a loved one.   Sometimes it  can be a mistake to do chemotherapy when the body is weak or there really is little hope, the biostatistics are so very clear on probability of life expectancy using various models of treatment, advancement, etc, but the human factor always weighs in: sometimes the family or the patient is so desperate that they will try stuff as a last shot (like chemo), and yes, it can kill them faster than the cancer and make them suffer very much in the meantime.  So can being in a hospital, catching a cold, etc.  Chemo and western medicine does not save lives, but it has been well proven to save SOME lives, and slows SOME cancer advancement, wheres homeopathy saves NO lives and has never been shown to slow cancer advancement.  

 

Homeopathy being paid by health insurance is what raises my ire the most.  It gives credit to something where credit should not be given, which makes people believe it MUST be just as good as other treatments paid by health insurance.  Its fine if people want to go to a natural food store and buy some magic pills if it makes them feel better, but its a whole other ballgame if medical professionals are presenting them as equivalent to treatments that have shown positive results in multiple peer reviewed, double blind study supported research.  

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jonny said:

But I believe that homeopathy here is paid for by some health insurance. It may be quackery but I'm not sure it's a get rich quick scheme. 

But not for cancer treatment. I do not think German Heilpraktiker are even allowed to give such false promises. But who knows, sometimes over-regulated Germany is actually under-regulated.

 

7 hours ago, Jonny said:

My friend told me that when his father had cancer, he believed it was the chemotherapy that eventually killed him. Have you looked at the efficacy of chemotherapy ? Not all Western medicine is a magic bullet and until it is, people will turn to alternative therapies when they can.

I find that the concept of probability is poorly explained in modern education. Doctors do not really know why in this case it works and in that case it doesn't, biologists should do this more...

 

I know one person who was a doctor and who refused to take chemo, because for him chances of success were low. He opted for better standard of living instead and just took painkillers until he died...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/3/2017, 1:40:00, MikeMelga said:

If they are faced with countless (well, actually close to 2000) scientific papers that tell them homeopathy has no positive effect and they instead come with the usual crap "ah, but my mother got better after taking homeopathic medicine", how can I trust them for their usual work, which involves experimenting and statistics analysis? We work in a company that makes equipment to measure physical properties (doesn't matter which). And these guys come and tell me they trust homeopathy, despite not being possible to "measure" the effect or magic properties as "water memory"!

 

Quote

The more scientists learn about "simple" things, the less simple they seem. Water, for instance, was long considered a simple mass of independent molecules jostling one another aimlessly, like marbles in a bag. Then someone noticed that when sound waves pass through water, they lose more energy than they theoretically should. A possible explanation: water molecules may be arranged in groups like small, loose crystals. If there are such "crystals," a sound wave would distort them, thus expending some of its energy.

 

I used to be convinced that Homeopathy was crap. Until I had 2 experiences that led me to question whether there might be some validity to homeopathic theory.

 

The first was when I went for a treatment to avoid arguing with then girlfriend. and was stunned when it helped me. Now this is an anomaly, not statistically significant. It could just have been time for me to get better and it was a coincidence that I got better just after visiting homeopathist. The second was more complex. I went with same girlfriend on a homeopathic workshop weekend to look after her children, and participated in one experiment the result of which mystified me.

 

So like any good, sharp scientific mind I asked myself could it have any scientific basis. Well if liquid water has a crystalline structure that would justify the so called memory effect. The paragraph above is taken from time magazine, hardly a journal that spouts bullshit pseudo science.

 

I'm not saying homeopathy is valid. I'm saying I no longer firmly believe it's invalid. 

 

Mike your brutal, dogmatic scientific approach would have Einstein burned at the stake for suggesting gravity or velocity could possible affect time when that is so obviously ridiculous.

 

It is you who is being scientifically unrigourous in condemning and ridiculing fellow physicists who perform their jobs well, because their minds are less closed than yours. 

 

p.s. We can't measure dark matter or energy but every decent scientific mind believes in it. 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Mike your brutal, dogmatic scientific approach would have Einstein burned at the stake for suggesting gravity or velocity could possible affect time when that is so obviously ridiculous.

 

It is you who is being scientifically unrigourous in condemning and ridiculing fellow physicists who perform their jobs well, because their minds are less closed than yours. 

No. He proposed a scientific theory, experiments were set to test it, they passed. This is science. Homeopathy does not pass ANY scientific experiment that tries to validate it.

 

For example, at the moment I'm following the EMDrive concept closely. Its concept is as revolutionary as relativity, there is some evidence that the phenomenon exists, but it does not fit the current theory. And I have no problem with that. In fact, I eagerly await for an explanation.

 

Quote

p.s. We can't measure dark matter or energy but every decent scientific mind believes in it. 

Not really, there are alternative theories and I actually don't think the current dark matter/energy theory is the best.

 

And you are mixing completely different things. You are comparing a situation where there is an observed phenomenon that we need to explain ("lack" of matter"), compared to a situation where a product claims things that challenge science without producing proof of it.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I'm proposing water is a liquid crystal which is shaped by the impurities in it as the crystals formed. This manifests itself as the memory effect of water, where it can remember impurities that have since been diluted away. This is the basis of homeopathy where the absence of the impurity has an opposite effect so in treating somebody with homeopathic arsinic for example, you are giving them anti-arsenic. Not 33 antiprotons BTW just arsenic opposite.

 

Hmm well expressed, not really any more outlandish than general relativity.

 

Acupuncture also has no scientific basis. Energy meridians in the body??? How many joules per cubic meter is this energy? How many newtons of life force does the average person have?

 

But it is more accepted than homeopathy, and I actively believe in acupuncture while simply ceasing to disbelieve homeopathy.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Mike your brutal, dogmatic scientific approach would have Einstein burned at the stake for suggesting gravity or velocity could possible affect time when that is so obviously ridiculous.

Actually Einstein was a very dogmatic and sceptic himself, I do not know why people are using his example to justify pseudo science.

 

Yes, he invented relativity theory and photo effect, but he was absolutely ok that scientific community was sceptical about it. He was also against statistical nature of quantum mechanics, and he made very solid arguments against it. Yes, he was wrong in the end, but it's better to be wrong that way than another way.

 

Or do you really want healthcare system to go back to the times when heroin was a medicine against cough? I am constantly watching contradicting reports on German TV:

1. Moaning that some medicine causes bad side effects = pharma company only wants profit;

2. Moaning that "there is new medicine against cancer" and the pharma company is not giving it to people without prior testing.

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

And I'm proposing water is a liquid crystal which is shaped by the impurities in it as the crystals formed. This manifests itself as the memory effect of water, where it can remember impurities that have since been diluted away. This is the basis of homeopathy where the absence of the impurity has an opposite effect so in treating somebody with homeopathic arsinic for example, you are giving them anti-arsenic. Not 33 antiprotons BTW just arsenic opposite.

Ok, so you need to do the following:

 

1) prove that water is a liquid crystal

2) prove that there is a "memory" effect. Basically you need to rewrite the entire knowledge of chemistry, but go ahead

3) prove that no other "memory" persists beyond the one you want to use (the "drink your own piss argument")

4) prove that the "memory" effect acts as an "anti"-substance

5) prove that it causes an effect on living organisms

6) prove that it does not acquire new "memories" while being absorbed by the body

7) prove that the effect is positive in some medical situations (what the hell is "anti-arsenic"??)

 

 

Quote

Acupuncture also has no scientific basis. Energy meridians in the body??? How many joules per cubic meter is this energy? How many newtons of life force does the average person have?

But it is more accepted than homeopathy, and I actively believe in acupuncture while simply ceasing to disbelieve homeopathy.

I don't.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope Mike,

 

Science of which you claim to be an excellent practitioner doesn't work like. You have demonstrated dogmatic close mindedness by insulting fine scientific colleagues because of their belief in something. I have given a plausible theory as to why there may be some basis for their beliefs, as well as relating my own anomalies to which I applied my fine scientific mind.

 

The fact that sound waves lose too much energy travelling through liquid water is my solid starting point.

 

Since you want to insult scientific colleagues, explain why my hypothesis which supports their viewpoint is invalid.

 

You respect that Einstein threw out a wild hypothesis about special and general relativity, that was only proven years after his death, but demand I prove my hypothesis because you don't like it. Not very scientific or philosophical at all.

 

3 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Or do you really want healthcare system to go back to the times when heroin was a medicine against cough? I am constantly watching contradicting reports on German TV:

1. Moaning that some medicine causes bad side effects = pharma company only wants profit;

2. Moaning that "there is new medicine against cancer" and the pharma company is not giving it to people without prior testing.

 

 

 

Like for example leeches were the wonder medicine in medieval times, totally discredited 100 years ago, and making a comeback now. In fact in Kathmandu 2 years ago I tried to convince a Dutch man who had mild frostbite on his toes to try leaches to get more blood flowing through his toes. After discussions on subject with a medical professional back in Munich. He was too icked to follow my advice, but later admitted it seemed to be sound.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

In fact in Kathmandu 2 years ago I tried to convince a Dutch man who had mild frostbite on his toes to try leaches to get more blood flowing through his toes. After discussions on subject with a medical professional back in Munich. He was too icked to follow my advice, but later admitted it seemed to be sound.

You are now trying to prove quackery science with Volksmedizin, this is unfair!

 

Volksmedizin has been developed on a trial&error basis for centuries. Perhaps the only reason why it is not incorporated into main scientific medicine because it's humiliating for human dignity. Leeches, are you serious?!

 

Volksmedizin is like "if you want to treat diabetes, fuck a donkey in the arse". No, I am not going to do that even if the treatment success is 100%. Modern western medicine is not only about efficiency, it is also about humane treatment. Without leeches, frogs, chickens, donkeys etc.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hospital uses leeches to heal patients

New homeopathic medicines: use of modern drugs according to the principle of similitude

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

The homeopathic method is based on the application of the principle of therapeutic similitude (similia similibus curentur), using medicines that cause effects similar to the symptoms of disease in order to stimulate the reaction of the organism against disturbances. Such vital, homeostatic or paradoxical reaction of the organism can be scientifically explained on the basis of the rebound effect of modern drugs.

AIMS:

This article presents the conclusion of a study aiming at a method to use modern drugs with homeopathic criteria.

METHODS:

Adverse effects as catalogued in United States Pharmacopoeia Dispensing Information Drug monographs were collected.

RESULTS:

A homeopathic materia medica and repertory comprising 1251 modern drugs to be employed according to the principle of therapeutic similitude was developed.

CONCLUSION:

Besides supplying a basis for homeopathy as a medical rationale related to scientific pharmacology, this study makes available a method that may broaden the scope of intervention of homeopathy in present day diseases.

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

it is also about humane treatment. Without leeches,

It is more about money than anything else!

Leeches were still used when I was a kid.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Nope Mike,

 

Science of which you claim to be an excellent practitioner doesn't work like. You have demonstrated dogmatic close mindedness by insulting fine scientific colleagues because of their belief in something. I have given a plausible theory as to why there may be some basis for their beliefs, as well as relating my own anomalies to which I applied my fine scientific mind.

 

The fact that sound waves lose too much energy travelling through liquid water is my solid starting point.

 

Since you want to insult scientific colleagues, explain why my hypothesis which supports their viewpoint is invalid.

 

You respect that Einstein threw out a wild hypothesis about special and general relativity, that was only proven years after his death, but demand I prove my hypothesis because you don't like it. Not very scientific or philosophical at all.

 

 

Like for example leeches were the wonder medicine in medieval times, totally discredited 100 years ago, and making a comeback now. In fact in Kathmandu 2 years ago I tried to convince a Dutch man who had mild frostbite on his toes to try leaches to get more blood flowing through his toes. After discussions on subject with a medical professional back in Munich. He was too icked to follow my advice, but later admitted it seemed to be sound.

 

Leeches are still used in many hospital as far as I know.  They have them in stock.  I remember reading a few years ago that a girl had a serious accident in a factory badly mangling her hand.  They stitched it together but the blood flow in her fingers was compromised so they stuck a leech on each one.  It saved her fingers.  I've also seen how in extreme cases they've used maggots to eat away decaying flesh in a bad wound.  They have to be the right kind, the ones that eat only decaying flesh, not healthy.  The patients describe a tickling feeling as the "little helpers" are munching away.  Personally, if I was in a situation that this method is proven to help more than others, I'd try it.  However, neither leeches nor maggots are miracle cures that will work for everything.

 

I don't really believe in homeopathy.  I have an aunt who dabbles in it and my sister in law was doing this too.  But I don't see any harm in trying it if it's not a life threatening situation and you are not swapping proven medicine for salt and sugar pills.  Like others have said, if they wanted to prove that it works, they'd have to do double blind studies.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Leeches are indeed becoming mainstream. If I had poor circulation and was given a choice between blood thinners (rat poison) and leeches I'd certainly feed the leeches. Fuck Yourkeau's dignity. Sadly up to now all my leech feeding has been involuntary, and there is a huge yuck factor in seeing this black squiggly thing sucking your blood, especially close to the groin. Don't walk in long wet grass in leech country.

 

There was a touching scene in Grey's anatomy where a man had his nose saved by leeches, was horrified that they were going to be incinerated like all medical waste, and demanded he be given his leeches that he paid for so he could release them in the wild. There's a dude who probably believes in karma. The leeches saved me, I'll save the leeches.

 

Problem is leeches and flesh eating maggots don't earn pharma companies as much as drugs do.

 

As for anti-arsenic the most common isotope would be 33 anti-protons, 42 anti-neutrons, and if uncharged 33 positrons. Don't need to be a chemical or sub atomic genius to work that out. But I wasn't talking about anti matter I was talking about water remembering the form of arsenic after it's been diluted away. The memory of arsenic without the arsenic is less than zero arsenic. Homeopatathy101

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

And I'm proposing water is a liquid crystal which is shaped by the impurities in it as the crystals formed. This manifests itself as the memory effect of water, where it can remember impurities that have since been diluted away. This is the basis of homeopathy where the absence of the impurity has an opposite effect so in treating somebody with homeopathic arsinic for example, you are giving them anti-arsenic. Not 33 antiprotons BTW just arsenic opposite.

 

Hmm well expressed, not really any more outlandish than general relativity.

 

Acupuncture also has no scientific basis. Energy meridians in the body??? How many joules per cubic meter is this energy? How many newtons of life force does the average person have?

 

But it is more accepted than homeopathy, and I actively believe in acupuncture while simply ceasing to disbelieve homeopathy.

 

I couldn't get past "water is a liquid crystal".   It is not a crystal, by any definition.  It's an inorganic compound, and not capable of impurities without that compound.  It can have impurities AROUND that compound, but they are not structurally bonded to water molecules.  If they were, it would no longer be water.  

 

It IS more outlandish to state that fundamental chemistry is wrong.  Acupuncture actually doesn't do that.  It is more esoteric, more fluff talk and little effort into redefining basic scientific facts (although I'm sure someone has tried somewhere).  There actually is some physical basis for acupuncture/acupressure, but it does fall away from science when they start referring to it as "energy meridians".    Homeopathy is a scam because those who market it try to explain everything with false statements about chemistry by throwing in words like "quantum physics" with absolutely no idea what quantum physics IS.  

 

But alas,  I'm not *against* it per se.  I don't think it's going to kill anyone to take a sugar pill for a headache, if thats what they want to do.  My issue is in the case where people extend their interest in it beyond "giving it a shot" and start delving into "my doctor doesn't know as much as i do, and is probably a big pharma shill".  We can talk lightly about this all day, but my heart gets heavy about it when i remember people like that telling my mom that her oncologist didn't know anything, and she should try homeopathy INSTEAD.  Or when i remember cases like these:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/28/homeopathy-baby-death-couple-jailed

 

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/calgary-mother-who-relied-on-herbal-medicines-facing-charges-after-son-7-dies-of-treatable-bacterial-infection

 

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/mother-accused-negligence-babys-death-homeopathy-treatments-video/

 

And what a more responsible governing health authority should do:

 

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/cam02_nhmrc_statement_homeopathy.pdf

 

background:

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/cam02

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

And I'm proposing water is a liquid crystal which is shaped by the impurities in it as the crystals formed. This manifests itself as the memory effect of water, where it can remember impurities that have since been diluted away. This is the basis of homeopathy where the absence of the impurity has an opposite effect so in treating somebody with homeopathic arsinic for example, you are giving them anti-arsenic. Not 33 antiprotons BTW just arsenic opposite.

 

Hmm well expressed, not really any more outlandish than general relativity.

 

Acupuncture also has no scientific basis. Energy meridians in the body??? How many joules per cubic meter is this energy? How many newtons of life force does the average person have?

 

But it is more accepted than homeopathy, and I actively believe in acupuncture while simply ceasing to disbelieve homeopathy.

Homeopathy in Germany isn't the "water memory" quackery you're talking about, MAM; it's more about holistic or alternative medicine - particularly herbal - and it certainly has its uses for minor maladies. When our son has a fever, for example, we treat him with pure blueberry juice and leg compresses and the fever always disappears overnight.

 

But when it comes to infectious or genetic diseases, I'd much rather place my faith in modern (Western) medicine.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and sound loses energy in water because of viscosity which is related to pressure, temperature and salinity.  That has nothing to do with the water molecule itself.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please note I'm not defending homeopathy, or water memory quackery!

I'm attacking dogmatic close mindedness by scientists especially in relation to homeopathy.

 

I will defend leeches and acupuncture. And blueberry juice. Probably tastes good too.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've mentioned Vierling's warts before.  Our Hausaertztin gave me some Warzenkraut (or some similar name) and told me to rub it on Vierling's hands that evening and the next morning.  I stopped myself from asking her if this was really effective or just something a gullible five-year-old might believe.  Well, a few days after rubbing the plant on Vierling's hands, the warts were all gone - except for one that I'd overlooked.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

You respect that Einstein threw out a wild hypothesis about special and general relativity, that was only proven years after his death, but demand I prove my hypothesis because you don't like it. Not very scientific or philosophical at all.

No, general relativity was published in 1916 and proven in 1919, during an eclipse in Africa, if not mistaken. Special relativity was proven even earlier.

 

9 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Like for example leeches were the wonder medicine in medieval times, totally discredited 100 years ago, and making a comeback now. In fact in Kathmandu 2 years ago I tried to convince a Dutch man who had mild frostbite on his toes to try leaches to get more blood flowing through his toes. After discussions on subject with a medical professional back in Munich. He was too icked to follow my advice, but later admitted it seemed to be sound.

 

There are many natural remedies that were proven effective for some problems. But that does not prove that all "alt-medicin" is good.

The same way Coca-cola started as a medicin, claimed to cure many diseases, including impotence. Now it cures sleepyness and low blood sugar.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

As for anti-arsenic the most common isotope would be 33 anti-protons, 42 anti-neutrons, and if uncharged 33 positrons. Don't need to be a chemical or sub atomic genius to work that out. But I wasn't talking about anti matter I was talking about water remembering the form of arsenic after it's been diluted away. The memory of arsenic without the arsenic is less than zero arsenic. Homeopatathy101

Please take some chemistry and physics class before saying things like that with so much confidence. There is even no point in refuting what you are saying, because you fail to grasp basic physics concepts.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0