Doctors refuse to give X-Ray copy

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Hello,

 

I had chest X-Ray done by an Internist. I would like to get a second opinion and asked for a copy of my X-Ray on digital or paper format. If paper format, I agreed to gave them back if necessary. The doctor refuses to give me copy of the X Ray. I went to my Hausärzt to get him to get the copy from the Internist, arguing he needs them for further treatment. The Internist also refuses to the Hausärzt, claiming the X Ray can not leave the building. 

Based on https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Gericht=LG%20Flensburg&Datum=16.08.2007&Aktenzeichen=1%20S%2016%2F07 and https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/r_v_1987/__28.html I am thinking of contacting the Ärztekammer to complain. 

Is there a good template letter to write to the Ârztekammer for this ? 

Timing is important, I need to take an important medical decision and wants a second opinion on the X-Ray. I am on a timetable and have 10 days left before taking the decision. 

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Have you asked your health insurance company for advice?  It is in your interest and theirs to avoid additional, unnecessary x-rays.

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In a related story, my dog was micro-chipped and the data resides at tasso.  When I went to their homepage to update my address, the tag ID, dog's name and my name are

entered to access the profile.  For some reason, entering the three pieces were rejected without indicting which one(s) was incorrect.  I emailed the vet who inserted the chip and asked for their help...they said they couldn't because of "privacy laws".  For a dog!  Welcome to DL.

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This is very strange. Are you sure this is not a misunderstanding? Maybe your doctor thinks you want to take the original, which he might be able to give you because he is required by law to retain your records for at least 10 years. He is allowed to charge you for a copy of the x-ray or any other medical records, but he must share them with you. I'd talk to him again and make sure one of you didn't get the wrong end of the stick.

Alternatively, have the doctor you want the second opinion from take a second x-ray. Would that be feasible?

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Yes, you can insist on a copy of the x-Ray, and even the original! This ain't the 1970s no more!

 

I recently was refused a copy of the results from an X-ray, and sternly lectured by the older doctor about how "this isn't done".

I left, got an evil grin, and went straight back in to he professor running the day clinic to complain.

In a nutshell, I got the copy instantly, and a free consultation with the professor.

 

Stand your ground!! Go higher if there is a superior!

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1 hour ago, sluzup said:

Have you asked your health insurance company for advice?  It is in your interest and theirs to avoid additional, unnecessary x-rays.

 

I have not asked them, thanks for the tip I will do this.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Smaug said:

This is very strange. Are you sure this is not a misunderstanding? Maybe your doctor thinks you want to take the original, which he might be able to give you because he is required by law to retain your records for at least 10 years. He is allowed to charge you for a copy of the x-ray or any other medical records, but he must share them with you. I'd talk to him again and make sure one of you didn't get the wrong end of the stick.

Alternatively, have the doctor you want the second opinion from take a second x-ray. Would that be feasible?

 

My Hausarzt secretary spoke to the doctor and she requested a copy, clearly. I talked to him three times and the hausarzrt talked to him twice, he never changed his mind and always replied no. We clearly said we wanted a copy, paper or CD, as well that if it was a non digital version, i agreed to give it back. 

I could get a second x ray and it seems I will have no choice, but this is costing me time.

 

18 minutes ago, Metall said:

Yes, you can insist on a copy of the x-Ray, and even the original! This ain't the 1970s no more!

 

I recently was refused a copy of the results from an X-ray, ad sternly lectured by the older doctor about how "this isn't done".

I left, got an evil grin, and went straight back in to he professor running the day clinic to complain.

In a nutshell, I got the copy instantly, and a free consultation with the professor.

 

Stand your ground!!

 

Unfortunately he owns his practice so no boss to go to complain to.

Hence why I would ideally want to go to the Arztekammer and they coerce him in doing it, and rather quickly. 

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57 minutes ago, catjones said:

they said they couldn't because of "privacy laws".

One could be foregiven for thinking that "privacy laws" are a heaven-sent trump-card to win any argument.

 

In reality Datenschutz is applied when it suits people & disregarded for the same reason.

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8 hours ago, SebWotan said:

Hello,

 

I had chest X-Ray done by an Internist. I would like to get a second opinion and asked for a copy of my X-Ray on digital or paper format. If paper format, I agreed to gave them back if necessary. The doctor refuses to give me copy of the X Ray. I went to my Hausärzt to get him to get the copy from the Internist, arguing he needs them for further treatment. The Internist also refuses to the Hausärzt, claiming the X Ray can not leave the building. 

Based on https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Gericht=LG%20Flensburg&Datum=16.08.2007&Aktenzeichen=1%20S%2016%2F07 and https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/r_v_1987/__28.html I am thinking of contacting the Ärztekammer to complain. 

Is there a good template letter to write to the Ârztekammer for this ? 

Timing is important, I need to take an important medical decision and wants a second opinion on the X-Ray. I am on a timetable and have 10 days left before taking the decision. 

 

I'm not sure whether a template letter for a Beschwerde an die Ärztekammer (2.10€) is of any use in your particular case. The success rate of patient complaints is very low albeit many of them fail on simple basic legal grounds such as having been sent anonymously or not having been signed or dated by the complainant.

 

For complaints to the Ärztekammer to have any chance of success they must be carefully worded in a neutral tone and argued on a factual basis  and they must also be submitted to the specific Ärztekammer having responsibility for the individual case In RLP the latter choice (see below) would depend on the substance of a complaint.

 

Here are 2 questions you should ask yourself.

 

(1) Do you want to make a complaint about your (medical) treatment by this doctor or about his general behaviour towards you as a patient?

 

(In the former case the correct addressat would be "den » Schlichtungsausschuss der Landesärztekammer" in the latter case Beschwerdemanagement - Kassenäztliche Vereinigung Rheinland-Pfalz) The KVRLP page shows a telephone number so you might want to call there for a brief chat before deciding on your course of action.

 

ETA: Should you determine your complaint should be addressed to the Bezirksärztekammer then please note there are 4 of them in RLP

 

(2) Is it in your own interests to initiate an official complaint of a type which, by the legal procedural nature of such complaints, may take several weeks or more to resolve if your actual goal is to obtain access to a copy of your X-rays without delay?

 

OK, that was rhetorical but it did occur to me there are a couple of alternative methods of forcing him to provide such copies which could take much less time. As others have said, and you yourself surmised, the law already does provide a sound argument with which you shoulfd be able to uphold your right to have (at least temporary) access to mobile copies of your X-rays.

 

Specifically RöV §28 Abs. (2) S.1 (Xray Ordnance Section 28 Paragraph 2 Sentence 1) which says...

 

Quote

(2) Der untersuchten oder behandelten Person ist auf deren Wunsch eine Abschrift oder Ablichtung der Aufzeichnungen nach Absatz 1 Satz 2 Nr. 2, 3, 6 und 7 zu überlassen.

 

(The examined or treated person is to be allowed at their request a copy or print [photocopy] of the reproduction according to Paragraph 1 Sentence 2 Numbers 2,3,6 and 7.)

 

Presenting the doctor in question with a copy of RöV §28 with that sentence highlighted may be enough to convince him to cooperate but in case he remained adamant then there's this.

 

Although, as it would entail having access to a subscription service, I didn't read the full judgement referred to in the dejure link I think the following paragraphs taken from a press report on the case could provide sufficient supporting evidence to 'close the deal'.

 

Quote

Eigentlich gehören die Röntgenbilder dem Arzt. Sie können diese also nicht ohne weiteres mitnehmen. Allerdings haben Sie wie bei den anderen Behandlungsunterlagen auch ein Recht darauf die Röntgenbilder in der Praxis einzusehen. Allerdings können Sie auch verlangen, dass der Arzt Ihnen die Bilder vorübergehend ausleiht. Das bietet sich insbesondere an, wenn Sie diese einem anderen Arzt zeigen wollen. Eine Begründung dafür müssen Sie nicht leisten. Das hat das Landgericht Flensburg entschieden (LG Flensburg, Az.: 1 S 16/07).

Das Gericht begründete seine Entscheidung damit, dass der Patient ein Interesse daran hätte, sich nicht unnötig nach dem Arztwechsel einer erneuten Strahlenbelastung auszusetzen.

(My bolds) Source

 

As it says, although the x-rays belong to the doctor and you cannot simply take them with you you can certainly require the doctor to give you the temporary loan of them. This is especially relevant if you want to show them to another doctor. There is no requirement for a patient to justify such a decision. The court based its judgement on the fact that it is in the interest of patients to avoid any need for further x-rays when changing doctors.

 

If, after being shown both these pieces of evidence, this doctor refuses to cooperate then the prospect of applying to the court for a temporary injunction to oblige him to comply with your legally justified request would appear to be worth consideration. Such an injunction is called an einstweilige Verfügung and is a quite common procedure used in German law to obtain an urgent decision from a judge.

 

It is a fairly straightforward procedure to initiate but I would recommend you talk to a Fachanwalte für Medizinrecht with interest in the Rechtsgebiet Patientenrecht. Using this https://anwaltauskunft.de/anwaltssuche/erweitert/ search tool you'll find those terms, along with the Fremdsprachen (Englisch) in the scroll-down menus under Kompetenzen.

 

Its entirely possible that a well-constructed letter from a qualified lawyer would bring this doctor to his senses without further ado but that's a matter of speculation for now.

 

Good luck, and do let us know how you get on.

 

2B

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I agree, going through the Ärztekammer will be a veeerrrry slow process with a low success rate.

Have a lawyer demand the X-ray!

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What about printing out all of the applicable laws that have been given here and take that by the doctor? Certainly you need a second opinion as you probably won't choose to be treated by a doctor who is already causing so much hassle.

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Whenever I have had an x-ray here in DE, the first thing they do is hand me the pictures in an envelope and expect me to know what to do next...

 

 

Very very seldom does the "Lung speciallist" own an x-ray machine... you are usually sent to "The X-ray specialist"

 

The whole story sounds a bit crook to me!

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3 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

Very very seldom does the "Lung speciallist" own an x-ray machine... you are usually sent to "The X-ray specialist"

 

Whilst its true that radiographers' practices are often considered, even by some Hausärzte, to be the one-stop shop for all x-rays I'm not sure how seldom or how common it is for pulmonary specialsits to have their own x-ray machines because I've only ever been referred to one "lung specialist" in 1990 in Wiesbaden but he certainly had one designed specifically for chest x-rays. It looked like the most sophisticated x-ray machine I'd seen at that time.

 

In the same month I was also referred to a thyroid specialist in Wiesbaden who also had a specialzed x-ray machine.

 

Both of them had lots of diagnostic kit and MTAs to keep all their guinea pigs patients busy hopping on and off their kit. They produced extensive detailed reports listing every slight anomaly from the DIN standard norm complete with charts and graphs their machinery had printed out.

 

As it turned out both investigations were a waste of my time and money (bloody expensive they were too) as the 3rd specialist my Hausärztin sent me to immediately confirmed while having a preliminary earful with his stethoscope. As a cardioligist he soon determined that the cause of all my multiple symptoms was an acceleration in the compensatory measures my heart was undergoing to overcome the effects of a generic defect. Who knew you could get dizzy and drown whilst jogging to fight the flab?!:lol:

 

Oh, and all the orthopedists I've seen here had their own full body x-ray machines too.

 

I suspect German banks love lending money for x-ray machines to specialist doctors setting up new practices coz they know they're a guaranteed profit center.

 

2B

 

 

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On 30/06/2017 à, 2B_orNot2B said:

 

I'm not sure whether a template letter for a Beschwerde an die Ärztekammer (2.10€) is of any use in your particular case. The success rate of patient complaints is very low albeit many of them fail on simple basic legal grounds such as having been sent anonymously or not having been signed or dated by the complainant.

 

For complaints to the Ärztekammer to have any chance of success they must be carefully worded in a neutral tone and argued on a factual basis  and they must also be submitted to the specific Ärztekammer having responsibility for the individual case In RLP the latter choice (see below) would depend on the substance of a complaint.

 

Here are 2 questions you should ask yourself.

 

(1) Do you want to make a complaint about your (medical) treatment by this doctor or about his general behaviour towards you as a patient?

 

(In the former case the correct addressat would be "den » Schlichtungsausschuss der Landesärztekammer" in the latter case Beschwerdemanagement - Kassenäztliche Vereinigung Rheinland-Pfalz) The KVRLP page shows a telephone number so you might want to call there for a brief chat before deciding on your course of action.

 

ETA: Should you determine your complaint should be addressed to the Bezirksärztekammer then please note there are 4 of them in RLP

 

(2) Is it in your own interests to initiate an official complaint of a type which, by the legal procedural nature of such complaints, may take several weeks or more to resolve if your actual goal is to obtain access to a copy of your X-rays without delay?

 

OK, that was rhetorical but it did occur to me there are a couple of alternative methods of forcing him to provide such copies which could take much less time. As others have said, and you yourself surmised, the law already does provide a sound argument with which you shoulfd be able to uphold your right to have (at least temporary) access to mobile copies of your X-rays.

 

Specifically RöV §28 Abs. (2) S.1 (Xray Ordnance Section 28 Paragraph 2 Sentence 1) which says...

 

 

(The examined or treated person is to be allowed at their request a copy or print [photocopy] of the reproduction according to Paragraph 1 Sentence 2 Numbers 2,3,6 and 7.)

 

Presenting the doctor in question with a copy of RöV §28 with that sentence highlighted may be enough to convince him to cooperate but in case he remained adamant then there's this.

 

Although, as it would entail having access to a subscription service, I didn't read the full judgement referred to in the dejure link I think the following paragraphs taken from a press report on the case could provide sufficient supporting evidence to 'close the deal'.

 

(My bolds) Source

 

As it says, although the x-rays belong to the doctor and you cannot simply take them with you you can certainly require the doctor to give you the temporary loan of them. This is especially relevant if you want to show them to another doctor. There is no requirement for a patient to justify such a decision. The court based its judgement on the fact that it is in the interest of patients to avoid any need for further x-rays when changing doctors.

 

If, after being shown both these pieces of evidence, this doctor refuses to cooperate then the prospect of applying to the court for a temporary injunction to oblige him to comply with your legally justified request would appear to be worth consideration. Such an injunction is called an einstweilige Verfügung and is a quite common procedure used in German law to obtain an urgent decision from a judge.

 

It is a fairly straightforward procedure to initiate but I would recommend you talk to a Fachanwalte für Medizinrecht with interest in the Rechtsgebiet Patientenrecht. Using this https://anwaltauskunft.de/anwaltssuche/erweitert/ search tool you'll find those terms, along with the Fremdsprachen (Englisch) in the scroll-down menus under Kompetenzen.

 

Its entirely possible that a well-constructed letter from a qualified lawyer would bring this doctor to his senses without further ado but that's a matter of speculation for now.

 

Good luck, and do let us know how you get on.

 

2B

 

Thanks a lot for this detailed answer, this is very helpful.

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Update: I went today with a printout of 2B_orNot2B links and I gathered a bit more information. He still refused and was quite upset: shooting, belittling my decisions to get a second opinion. He refused to read to the print out (his secretary did). 

The useful bits I got out of his ramblings: 

- he does not have the hardware to mak copies, he would have to lend the original

- he denied my Hausarzt requested them. My Hauzarzt said they did.

- he believed i will take them abroad, to France specifically to show them to a French doctor. Would I had the rights to take the original on loan abroad ?

 

i will talk to my Hausarzt to confirmed they did request the X rays. Then I will either explain the whole thing to a lawyer I contacted today.

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Name and shame!!

 

You ALWAYS have the right to a second opinion in Germany! There is absolutely no discussion about this!

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3 hours ago, SebWotan said:

He still refused and was quite upset: shooting, belittling my decisions to get a second opinion.

 

I hope he was only shouting and not shooting.:ph34r: It does sound like he's an absolute twat though. I've come across a couple of German doctors who demonstrated similarly defensive attitudes when questioned as to the reasoning behind their treatment recommendations.

 

Logically one would think that any specialist (in any industry), who was 100% sure of their technically competent assessment of a situation and their recommendations to deal with it, should welcome the opinion of another equally qualified specialist since that second specialist could be expected to confirm their original findings. He seems oblivious to the fact that by demonstrating such a defensive attitude he raises his own flag of uncertainty and doubt in his own diagnosis and recommendations.

 

3 hours ago, SebWotan said:

He refused to read to the print out (his secretary did). 

 

So, he's not only a twat, but an arrogant and foolish twat to boot.

 

3 hours ago, SebWotan said:

- he does not have the hardware to mak copies, he would have to lend the original

- he denied my Hausarzt requested them. My Hauzarzt said they did.

- he believed i will take them abroad, to France specifically to show them to a French doctor.

 

- so his praxis hasn't caught up with the standards of 2005 yet? That's his problem.

- a "he said - she said" situation involving professional colleagues is one fraught with potential difficulties. (see below)*

- not sure why he believed that or if you even tried to reassure him this was not your intent.

 

3 hours ago, SebWotan said:

Would I had the rights to take the original on loan abroad ?

 

I can't see what difference, other than wrt whether you or your health insurer might end up footing the bill, it would make where the specialist you sought a second opinion from was located.

 

That said, since the x-rays are his property and, once convinced to do so, he would be making a temporary loan of them to you I would think he'd be within his rights to have you sign an agreement which included any reasonable binding conditions he wanted to add. Whilst I could imagine a court agreeing to a general restriction on removing them from the BRD they may be persuaded to extend that limit to the EU member states since all of them are (currently) bound to cooperate under the same legal umbrella/s (ECJ & ECHR).

 

If you do want to take them to France you should probably ask your lawyer to prepare a draft loan agreement (aussleihungs Vereinbarung) including suitably worded special conditions (sonder Auflage).

 

3 hours ago, SebWotan said:

i will talk to my Hausarzt to confirmed they did request the X rays.

 

 *Be very careful how you approach your Hausärzt about this. Professionals (architects, accountants, engineers, lawyers, academics, doctors, etc,) in Germany are notoriously reluctant to become involved in inter-collegial disputes. That is an area in which many of them suffer from chronic and acute risk aversion, having more fear of the potential cost to their time and pocket any court dispute might result in than they do of contagious diseases.

 

If you have not yet told your Hausärzt of the lung specialist's difficult attitude then I would studiously avoid doing so in clear text. IMO it would be far better to cruise in casually and ask him to write a request for the temporary loan of your x-rays

 

"Guten Morgen, Herr Dr Liebekerl, Können Sie bitte eine kurz Ersuche um der ausleihung meine Röntgenbilder an Hr. Lungmann schreiben für mich? Dankeschön im Voraus für Ihrer Mühe."

 

That's what I'd say although I am sure that it's grammatically imperfect. No matter though, @Metall or @someonesdaughter or one of the other TT Germanistik specialists should, hopefully, be along to correct it soon in one minute. :D

 

2B

 

ETA: She's got reactions like greased lightning, has that @Metall.:D

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Slightly fixed:

 

"Guten Morgen, Herr Dr [Hausarzt]!

Könnten Sie mir bitte ein kurzes Ersuchen an Dr [X-Ray twat]  um die vorübergehende Ausleihe meiner Röntgenbilder schreiben? Dankeschön im Voraus für Ihre Mühe."

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Slightly fixed even more by a naughty scuba beginner:

Danke schön (two stupid words ) and " für Ihre ( no " r  ":D)  (weiblich Accusative stuff ) Mühe "..:D

What a language..you´re better off under water!!!:lol:

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46 minutes ago, john g. said:

Slightly fixed even more by a naughty scuba beginner:

Danke schön (two stupid words ) and " für Ihre ( no " r  ":D)  (weiblich Accusative stuff ) Mühe "..:D

What a language..you´re better off under water!!!:lol:

In Greece you would give the doctor a tenner as well.

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They like 50 euros here, Luke! Everyone is happy!:D Electricians, docs, dentists..kind of a round number!!! If they only had to work short term without waking up!!!!

Bit tired..not quite sure of the relevance of your post!:P

Or of mine...:lol:

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