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US student jailed by North Korea is dead

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I did this on purpose.

 

I am very surprised that AlexTr, who would otherwise strictly oppose the view that a woman can be guilty of crime against her because of her looks, makeup or clothing, uses exactly the same argument here.

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If AlexTr feels offended by my comment, I am ready to apologize.

 

I did it on purpose, but offending was not my purpose.

 

Sometimes we all indirectly and unconsciously support views which should not be supported.

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I agree - it's a problem when people go to a place like the DPRK without comprehending the situation in a place like that. Warmbier did not at all deserve this fate, but few people deserve their fate. Life is just that way. Warmbier is not the only one to suffer the cruelties of the world, remember. There are millions who meet such a fate, or live with such risks (by which I also mean the threat of starvation, homelessness, and a lonely death).

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51 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

I did this on purpose.

 

I am very surprised that AlexTr, who would otherwise strictly oppose the view that a woman can be guilty of crime against her because of her looks, makeup or clothing, uses exactly the same argument here.

 

I'm certainly not buying you said that on purpose, you're just saying "I did this on purpose" because it was pointed out to you. 

 

Then you do it again with this comment, another one of klubbnika's discussion tactics is to bring up completely unrelated old analogies, discussions, and topics  from previous threads gone by that have absolutely nothing to do  with the discussion at hand or comments she's already made on the same thread topic.  I'm beginning to think you and her are the same posters because you're certainly beginning to do the same thing she does.  Only thing you have to do now  on this thread is mention the Nazis, Hitler, Soviet Union, Holocaust, or Islamofascism  and then I'm completely convinced you two are the same posters. 

 

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21 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

I did this on purpose.

 

I am very surprised that AlexTr, who would otherwise strictly oppose the view that a woman can be guilty of crime against her because of her looks, makeup or clothing, uses exactly the same argument here.


Here's your sign!

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1 hour ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

I agree - it's a problem when people go to a place like the DPRK without comprehending the situation in a place like that. Warmbier did not at all deserve this fate, but few people deserve their fate. Life is just that way. Warmbier is not the only one to suffer the cruelties of the world, remember. There are millions who meet such a fate, or live with such risks (by which I also mean the threat of starvation, homelessness, and a lonely death).

Sure. I have some small interest in the country. Sure people who try to flee the country have it worse: for some political reason South Korean Embassy does not accept refugees from North Korea in China. That's why they live illegally in PRC, some plan to earn money and go to South Korea via third country. Some are just married to local Chinese Koreans and just want to stay in China. But they both face the risk of deportation back to North Korea where they are imprisoned for leaving the country. These deportations happen from time to time.

 

Or journalists. Those do understand all the risks, and do exercise caution. But it only reduces the probability of arrest, it still remains.

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3 hours ago, clickety6 said:

Funny how the US authorities ban US citizens from tourist travel to a relatively safe country like Cuba, but is happy to let them visit North Korea...

 

Actually there is no law against visiting Cuba.  They tried to make it illegal and that was deemed unconstitutional.  Reagan made it illegal to spend money in Cuba, however.  You get fined if they find out although unless you are stupid, there is no reason for them to ever find out.  

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I must respond regarding the Michael Fay caning incident. I knew the kid because he was friends with my son. Had his mother simply hired a lawyer and kept her mouth shut, he never would have gotten caned. Instead, she went to the press (CNN) and made a big deal about it. In that case Singapore had no choice but to follow the law. How do I know this? My son and many other "western" kids got into a lot of shenanigans over there and got caught doing things much more serious than what Mike did. Some even got caught with pot which was a death sentence at the time. The parents knew to keep it on the low down and call a lawyer. Most got off with small fines. A few were asked to leave the country.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Actually there is no law against visiting Cuba.  They tried to make it illegal and that was deemed unconstitutional.  Reagan made it illegal to spend money in Cuba, however.  You get fined if they find out although unless you are stupid, there is no reason for them to ever find out.  

 

" Travel to Cuba for tourist activities remains prohibited by statute. However, the Department of Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) has issued general licenses for 12 categories of travel. "

 

That's why I was careful to state Americans were banned as "tourists" <smug grin smiley goes here> .

But  I agree that in reality any half-way smart American should be able to manage to fit one of the categories in the list.

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56 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

I must respond regarding the Michael Fay caning incident. I knew the kid because he was friends with my son. Had his mother simply hired a lawyer and kept her mouth shut, he never would have gotten caned. Instead, she went to the press (CNN) and made a big deal about it. In that case Singapore had no choice but to follow the law. How do I know this? My son and many other "western" kids got into a lot of shenanigans over there and got caught doing things much more serious than what Mike did. Some even got caught with pot which was a death sentence at the time. The parents knew to keep it on the low down and call a lawyer. Most got off with small fines. A few were asked to leave the country.

 

 

 Wow, that is really interesting insight.  When it was all happening, i had that suspicion, but didn't really know for sure.  I was horrified by the idea of caning, but when he went on CNN with his big blue water filled eyes, I nearly sprained by eyeballs with a epic eyeroll because of how they had alerted the media and tried to play it all off.  Somehow it was as if he was, personally, above the locals who would have to face the same charges.    

 

 

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1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

I must respond regarding the Michael Fay caning incident. I knew the kid because he was friends with my son. Had his mother simply hired a lawyer and kept her mouth shut, he never would have gotten caned. Instead, she went to the press (CNN) and made a big deal about it. In that case Singapore had no choice but to follow the law. How do I know this? My son and many other "western" kids got into a lot of shenanigans over there and got caught doing things much more serious than what Mike did. Some even got caught with pot which was a death sentence at the time. The parents knew to keep it on the low down and call a lawyer. Most got off with small fines. A few were asked to leave the country.

 

 

 

Fascinating! I was always a big fan of Singapore as a kid, and we went there a couple of times a year. But, after watching Bangkok Hilton, I used to freak out about the security of our luggage and thought anyone could slip anything in, and we'd be toast!

 

53 minutes ago, clickety6 said:

 

" Travel to Cuba for tourist activities remains prohibited by statute. However, the Department of Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) has issued general licenses for 12 categories of travel. "

 

That's why I was careful to state Americans were banned as "tourists" <smug grin smiley goes here> .

But  I agree that in reality any half-way smart American should be able to manage to fit one of the categories in the list.

 

Most don't bother with these stupid exceptions, and travel via a third country. Cuba has no issues with Americans visiting.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but you can not ban the citizen of US from traveling anywhere. What is banned is economic activity, i.e. paying for goods and services is equivalent to funding terrorism, this is punished. Then you tell the authorities that you didn't spend a penny in Cuba, brought your own food from the US, slept in own tent etc.

 

Then they have to prove that the opposite is true.

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9 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you can not ban the citizen of US from traveling anywhere. What is banned is economic activity, i.e. paying for goods and services is equivalent to funding terrorism, this is punished. Then you tell the authorities that you didn't spend a penny in Cuba, brought your own food from the US, slept in own tent etc.

 

Then they have to prove that the opposite is true.

 

Im no us lawyer, but considering the US has from time to time had such things as "free speech zones" it is clear that the us does in fact prevent people from travelling to some places even inside their own country.  I cannot imagine that they would not be able to ban people from travelling to some specific countries or other.

 

That said, see the following copy/paste from wikipedia which indicates that regardless of whether it is *possible* it is not actually the case with cuba:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba#Temporary_lapse_of_restrictions.2C_and_reinstatement

 

Quote

The current regulation does not prohibit travel by U.S. citizens to Cuba per se, but it makes it illegal for U.S. citizens to have transactions (spend money or receive gifts) in Cuba under most circumstances without a US government Office of Foreign Assets Control issued license.[28] Since even paying unavoidable airfare ticket taxes into a Cuban airport would violate this transaction law, it is effectively impossible for ordinary tourists to visit Cuba without breaking the monetary transaction rule.

 

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I hate to say it, but isn't it possible the poor guy attempted suicide?

 

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23 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Then you tell the authorities that you didn't spend a penny in Cuba, brought your own food...

 

and cocktail ingredients!!

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2 hours ago, Metall said:

I hate to say it, but isn't it possible the poor guy attempted suicide?

 

 

 I wonder if he may have become aggressive, disrespectful, or refused to cooperate with their requests and they choked him. He'd been in a vegetative state since March 2016 according to reports. The American doctors described the horrible contractures  he had to his limbs when he arrived in the U.S.

 

Young Pioneer Tours the agency he booked the trip with said they are no longer taking Americans into North Korea after this incident.Here's a link to their tourism website and here's the statement they released about Otto Warmbier.

 

Quote

The devastating loss of Otto Warmbier's life has led us to reconsider our position on accepting American tourists. 

 

 

 

 

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There are 2 aspects to this story. Extreme sadness as a parent to loose your child in such a stupid avoidable manner. But as a parent we can only do that much and tell our children only so many 'no, No's . But children being children many a times do indulge in stupidities.

 

The second aspect is that if one plays a dangerous or stupid game willingly, then shit might happen sometime. 100s of people climb Everest, but each year few die unfortunately. But next year again there are the same number of new applicants, knowing well the chances of accident. Similarly, to travel to such places like North Korea or Afghanistan is adrenalin rushing, but could also go awry.

 

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