Germany's first liberal mosque opens in Berlin

[Guest]

@yourkeau - quit complaining and do the research to come up with some better arguments / counterarguments.   

 

Be glad that @zeino is more polite than i am.   

[yourkeau 7,638]

Actually, I am not glad.

 

I would rather prefer zeino to write "yourkeau, you are an arrogant fool" than writing long posts which can be summarized to "yourkeau, you are an arrogant fool".

 

I prefer to read one sentence to find out I am an arrogant fool than two long paragraphs with the same meaning.

[Guest]

Maybe she has decided to torture you.    

[yourkeau 7,638]

I have had such thoughts.

 

I am very vary of polite smiling people who then put a knife in your back in real life.

 

Prefer arrogant people like you who call me a clown on TT, but would have a drink in real life.

[zeino 692]

16 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Your posts become more and more passive aggressive, zeino.

 

I'm not being passive aggressive awarely or on purpose but if you take responsibility of your own disturbance and state what words bother your exactly, I can consider that and try to be more open. Other than that, you can call me whatever you like but the problem that seems to be disturbing you may have no chance to stop. Your choice. I think I have spoken very openly but you found it too long and didn't read. I cannot do anything about it. If I wanted to drive you crazy, I would have told you long ago that no other man in my country -from any political view you may choose- has ever spoken with me this patronizinly, in such an inequal and unncessarily personal way that I'm surprised you don't ever question your style. If I heard this from someone to whom I was constantly "teaching" democracy and whatnot, I would sit down and think what I'm doing instead of leaving myself to my emotions though. If this style continues, I will almost be grateful to the men here, maybe I've been a bit unfair to them all my life. That's the effect this communication is having on me.  

 

I will comment on your small penis analysis in a minute, that may also drive you crazy. That's the thing about psychoanalysis and deconstruction. They don't stop when you choose them to. Dora showed this to Freud a long time ago, didn't you know it?  Not my passive aggression, consequence of the lines of thought you have opened for us. 

 

16 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I see you have a class and cannot throw offenses at people, but maybe you should join other users of Toytown Germany who do not have this kind of class and write what they really think.

 

What I consider my "class" - if I ever choose to use that wprd- or what sort of behaviour I allow myself within that is completely my choice, regardless of how you choose to perceive it from your filters. If you want to categorize me into any group you have in your mind about other users and judge me in association with them, you are again entitled to your opinion. But when you tell me what to do all the time, that is also not up to you. I will not call you an illiterate fool because: 

 

1. Calling you illiterate would be pretty funny given the medium. 

 

2. Whether you are a fool or not is not something that bothers me. That you want to discuss an idea is enough. It is then my responsibility to conduct that debate in a manner acceptable to myself if I'm agreeing to discuss with you. If not, I leave. It has nothing to do with your foolishness or the opposite really. If you are curious, I don't think these disagreements are happening in general because anyone is a fool. I associate these more with the problematics of the concept "militant demcracy" as I see it. That is not something I'm willing to reduce to personal stuff such as your supposed foolishness that you are putting in my mouth. I don't have an obligation to exist in your emotional / conceptual framework. 

 

3. Within my values, I actually believe I said worse things than "arrogant fool." If I were willing to reduce that again to a personal sphere, I wouldn't have said them in the first place. 

 

4. What I have shared with you is some context within which I live. That cannot be reduced to your personal qualities even if that's the only message you choose to hear from it. Within this framework, whether I think you are an arrogant fool or pinnacle of high IQ humility is completely irrelevant. I guess all political opinions have representatives of all these. 

 

5. Why should I even bother with writing insults when you are so readily putting them into my mouth? 

 

16 hours ago, yourkeau said:

First you deny that I am bad, then write two long paragraph about how an arrogant illiterate fool I am.

 

Again, you misunderstood it. I'm neither defending/ proposing that you are bad. I'm simply not employing that concept when I interact with strangers on the Internet because I find it completely out of place. Why is having to have an emotional opinion about you dictated on me? I have asked you more than once not to project onto me, I hope at some point you will choose to respect this very personal boundary.  In the meantime, I can imagine having exactly the same debate with people that I know and find "good." 

 

What's the point in insistently telling people "I know you think I'm bad, tell me I'm bad, tell me I'm bad?" Can't we still carry on with the political debate? Then you also state that it has occurred to you that maybe I'm saying things to torture you. I have written about things like 28 feb, death penalty cases, corrupt prosecutors, cult like ideas, jail regulations that have happened where I live as factors that occur to people naturally. We may have cultural differences at this point, but this entire "admit you think I'm bad" discourse you are approaching me with is so irrelevant, I'm thinking why it is so fervently having to happen. 

 

16 hours ago, yourkeau said:

You have no courage to call me names?

 

Maybe I don't measure my courage with calling you names?

 

 

[zeino 692]

11 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I have had such thoughts.

 

I am very vary of polite smiling people who then put a knife in your back in real life.

 

Prefer arrogant people like you who call me a clown on TT, but would have a drink in real life.

 

Ooops, now I'm being described in the context of backstabbers. I'm against metaphorical violence as well, but at the same time, I don't think we have a friendship or a loyalty oath between us, so metaphorically stabbing you from your back or front does not even apply to me as a sign of trustworthiness or hypocrisy. Geez, look at the things we are speaking about. If you are wary of people whom you feel have betrayed you, please - again- do not project that onto other people who have done nothing to you and who are not enemies of your existence, although you are unable to see it for whatever reason. 

[zeino 692]

On 26.08.2017 20:38:03, yourkeau said:

Result: Erdogan tried to sue him in Germany.

 

And what happened? 

 

On 26.08.2017 20:38:03, yourkeau said:

Result: Merkel didn't give a flying fuck. Maybe she even had a laugh while watching this video, who knows.

 

 

Isn't it even worse if she didn't give a flying fuck but allowed for Böhmermann to be sued? Oops, "Law". AFAIK, the bits about zoophilia and pedophilia have been censored by German law. 

 

ZDF did not broadcast it, Frankfurter Allemagne criticized Böhmermann for not knowing the difference between satire as protected by press laws in Germany and primitive insult. Others in Germany did not agree. Ultimately, I personally don't see that particular disturbance as something that is unique to Erdoğan, many people would react. Would I sue if this was said to me? No. But I would make a good critique of it so much that the guy would be embarrased to appear in public. I would refer to Eco's "carnival" and an old Guardian article "Don't laugh when you say that."  If a clown made those zoophiilia and pedophilia jokes about Merkel in front of the German flag in Turkey, I would loudly protect every right of Merkel as an individual who does not deserve such slander and symbolic violence. Political criticism or satire is one thing, zoophilia, pedophilia is another. If you consider these humour and laughing at these as a sign of strength, call me weak and enjoy the "fun" - whatever you find funny in these is beyond me and it will stay so.  I would see that as perping a woman actually. And I don't do to men things I don't want to be done to women.

 

Your pseudo-Freudian comments about a person's, any person's genitals. Freud's theory was born "wrong" after his paper about sexual abuse in the middle class Vienna circles did not receive the applaud he was so excitedly hoping for. Ever since then, you have been reading the diverted, "softened" version of a theory at the cost of women and children. What he saw in Paris, he couldn't tell in Vienna. Go and read the original papers . Penis envy is also a misogynistic theory, your choice to employ it or not. 

 

But even if it were true, psychoanalysis was not invented so that males could build phallic hierarchy over each other, referring to the size of each others' Sergeants Pinkerton each time they wanted it. When someone brings these up, it inevitably extends to others' bodily functions and we almost find ourselves in a world where one's opinions should be valued only after we know the size and strength of their organs. Do you think any male is exempt from it? If we don't want to live in such a world, we shoud not be producing these. That is a world that I find totally ugly, hierarchical, and primitive. And it affects women, too. I'm now wondering what I may hear about my vagina or my sexual functions at the face of disagreement, if my opinions are understood through that filter. Feel free to share your opinions so we learn. (No, I'm not "offended".) 

 

So yes, I want to condemn that penis comment of yours. If anyone said "this woman needs a good fuck" about Merkel for instance - because that's how phallic symbolic violence affects women sometimes- I would respond equally. Call me anything you like for these. It's really OK. 

[yourkeau 7,638]

zeino: despite your doubts, I do read your posts, that's why I need time to prepare an answer.

 

In the meantime two Germans arrested in Antalya "for political reasons". Despite caring for my anonymity, basically I cannot be sure that some Turkish security guard is not reading my posts now and enters me into their arrest/ban database.

 

We are living in difficult times. Is Erdogan gaddafifying himself?

[klubbnika 1,308]

On 25/06/2017, 13:22:37, john g. said:

That didn´t take long...the liberal mosque has had its first fatwa...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/25/ibn-rushd-goethe-mosque-berlin-seyran-ates-egypt-fatwa-burqa-niqab

 

Wouldn't be the first time she receives that.

[yourkeau 7,638]

On 1.9.2017, 14:08:05, zeino said:

Isn't it even worse if she didn't give a flying fuck but allowed for Böhmermann to be sued? Oops, "Law". AFAIK, the bits about zoophilia and pedophilia have been censored by German law. 

I missed that. Indeed, there were offensive bits in that song. But then, I believe Böhnemann did it on purpose, perhaps knowing that eastern dictators are easily offended.

 

That paragraph of the criminal law is known as "Shah paragraph" because the shah of Iran was known to expensively apply it in Western Germany. He was later overthrown and replaced by even more radical regime. Was it incorrect back then to be against the shah? Can Turkey actually iranify itself or libyafy itself? Who knows...

 

Bundestag cancelled it, so Böhnemann remained unpunished.

 

On 1.9.2017, 14:08:05, zeino said:

Your pseudo-Freudian comments about a person's, any person's genitals.

God, zeino, it was metaphorical penis! I don't think anyone this days takes this theory seriously, so when one speaks about small penis, it's in metaphorical sense to describe someone who is easily offended, or someone who compensates own complexes with some ridiculous things like buying a BMW. Or arresting innocent people.

 

Quote

And it affects women, too. I'm now wondering what I may hear about my vagina or my sexual functions at the face of disagreement, if my opinions are understood through that filter. Feel free to share your opinions so we learn. (No, I'm not "offended".) 

But then you are not a politician. If you want to work in politics then, yes, it is a part of your job to hear things about your vagina. I understand that here were have some cultural misunderstanding: it's not a big offence to speak about someone's penis in the West. Because sex is not censored, it's everywhere. That's why.

 

 

[zeino 692]

34 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

But then, I believe Böhnemann did it on purpose

 

Nooo, what makes you believe that? It must be completely accidental. Writing something. 

35 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Bundestag cancelled it, so Böhnemann remained unpunished.

 

AFAIK, 18 lines out of 24 are/were censored but maybe that's changed now, or I know it wrong. 

36 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

God, zeino, it was metaphorical penis! I don't think anyone this days takes this theory seriously, so when one speaks about small penis, it's in metaphorical sense to describe someone who is easily offended, or someone who compensates own complexes with some ridiculous things like buying a BMW. Or arresting innocent people.

 

God, then I condemn the use of metaphorical penis. All the rest applies. Just add the word metaphor. 

38 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

But then you are not a politician.

 

Am I not? Hmmm. Obviously you know better. 

 

39 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

If you want to work in politics then, yes, it is a part of your job to hear things about your vagina.

 

Thank you. for defining what my work in politics should consist in. But maybe I choose to make politcs about people who tell me that it's a part of my job to hear things about my vagina. 

 

44 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

I understand that here were have some cultural misunderstanding: it's not a big offence to speak about someone's penis in the West. Because sex is not censored, it's everywhere. That's why.

 

 

Again you are working with assumptions. I'm not protesting that because it's an offense. It has nothing to do with sex. It's you who is constructing me as a woman like that. I'll say the same thing about fat for instance. 

 

As for culture... Is it normal in your culture to say to people the things you have said to me and then carry on communicating as if nothing happened? That would be a cultural difference. 

[yourkeau 7,638]

42 minutes ago, zeino said:

God, then I condemn the use of metaphorical penis. All the rest applies. Just add the word metaphor. 

My lesson is learned, I definitely won't do it again. When writing this I totally didn't expect that you will receive this differently than I intended.

 

43 minutes ago, zeino said:

Am I not? Hmmm. Obviously you know better. 

Are you? Then I would expect you to use your full name, real life picture and party name for us non-Turks.

Not that it's forbidden for politicians to be anonymous on a public forum, but then don't be surprised that you are not treated as a public person.

 

Quote

 But maybe I choose to make politcs about people who tell me that it's a part of my job to hear things about my vagina. 

I would agree with you only if all journalists arrested recently were making such offensive remarks. But it seems Erdogan is arresting them because he can't arrest Böhnemann. One year later. Is this the kind of politics you stand for?

 

Quote

It's you who is constructing me as a woman like that. I'll say the same thing about fat for instance. 

I am sorry for referring to Godwin law, but in my world making jokes about Hitler having one ball is totally ok and is not discrimination of disabled people. Same thing if he was a woman, a fat homosexual woman etc. Once you are Hitler you lose any right to claim tolerance.

 

Not comparing Erdogan to Hitler, but you do follow my logic. There is some red line after which non acceptable becomes acceptable.

 

51 minutes ago, zeino said:

Is it normal in your culture to say to people the things you have said to me and then carry on communicating as if nothing happened? That would be a cultural difference. 

I gave you a possibility to say "fuck you" to me. You didn't use it, what should I do more? Organize a Duell? Provide my real name, so you can make Interpol Red Notice warrant on me?

 

Yes, in my culture communication can be very emotional with fucks and shits flying around like planes at Frankfurt airport. And then continue as normal as if nothing happened. Because, what happened? Third World War?

[zeino 692]

On 01.09.2017 20:34:14, yourkeau said:

zeino: despite your doubts, I do read your posts

 

No doubts. Just surface meaning of TL;DR. 

 

On 01.09.2017 20:34:14, yourkeau said:

In the meantime two Germans arrested in Antalya "for political reasons".

 

So we are carrying on with the practice of bringing forth more and more, without worrying to answer. I have decided to do that, too. We can exchange all the info we know. So yes, two German citizens with Turkish origin. Husband and wife. (Would probably be called Turks in another context.) FETÖ. Probably in Antalya for Eid, but it's a wild guess. Someone informed them. Maybe it's a relative of them who called the police on them because he was angry about a football debate or money issue. So many Turkish people did this that the government had to tell people not to do it. Or maybe it's FETÖ themselves, they are conspiracists, arent they? Isn't it a bit unfair to expect them to perp people like us all the time? Maybe they start conspiring on German citizens, too. 

 

So if these Germans have been approached by someone who told them that from now on the communication will be in cell organization fashion, between 3 people at most, through a crypted communication app called Bylock, and if they have put money into this fellowship and if there are those incredible communications on their phones, that will be FETÖ. This is the basic level. 

 

At a higher level, as we read on papers today, we have read about medical FETÖ doctors in the army who have given unnecessary medication to some hundred non-FETÖ army pilots, which resulted in the enlargement of these soldiers' aorts, which then made them defunct. I'm horrified. 

 

At a higher level, you get robotic killers. Do you read their court statements on paper, are they translated for you at all? I don't think so TBH because Germany's free press or at least FAZ seems to be censoring even the words of the main opposition leader Kılıçdaroğlu when he says FETÖ coup. Either this, or the British press is adding sentences to translations about FETÖ. Naughty. 

 

I'm curious about free press even more. About Can Dündar. No, I didn't like it when we was attacked. No, I don't have a problem with journalists. But in the midst of some political chaos, I do have some questions about what these people are all up to. Sure sure sure their human rights are important. But that's so for everyone. I have questions beyond that basic level so that I will place him somewhere in my mind politically. So, he wrote twice that they "documented" Turkey's support for ISIS. You know the issue. We as Turkish people, other journalists etc. searched high and low for these documents as he didn't share them. (So we don't know how he documented this exactly.) All records of the event have been checked, not one word of ISIS. His newspaper didn't say a word about ISIS, either. This is a serious issue. Why is he not sharing the documents, we have a right to know. Until then, he just seems to have lied. In the court, too, he was asked if he had documents, he said no. Now that he is in a "free" country, maybe he enlightens us. 

 

Also, they are all confusing us instead of helping us get informed.  You know another journalist, a CHP MP has been sentenced to 25 years for passing the news to him. This was based on Dündar's book where he says he got the stuff from a leftist MP. Surely journalists cannot be forced to declare their sources. But he nevertheless gave this "hint" and said the source said he could give his name if he wanted. Anyway, the CHP MP said he was ready to take all responsibility for the news. He actually gave a press release in the Parliament saying it was him who gave the stuff. Can Dündar actually thanked him. He didn't say he didn't take them from him.  The thing is the CHP guy now says it's not him - after being sentenced to 25 years- and that he wasn't an MP at the time. What was that press release in the parliament? Theatre play? But they have phone signals. On that day, Dündar communicated with two other left MPs. Is it them? Is it someone else? Are they all watching that an innocent journalist is in prison? Which journalist shall we believe now? Who are these people? What are they doing? People were surprised when he didn't visit in prison the elderly editor-in-chief of the paper of which he became an editor afterward, that he didn't join one single protest about press when even elderly ladies were doing it, fainting and all that. But he remembered journalists when it extended to Zaman newspaper. So he, too, doesn't defend any right unconditionally about journalists, let alone anyone else. And now they are all watching. One of them changed his mind, he says he didn't do it, he will be in prison for 25 years;  the other has happened to thank this guy. They all know who the source is. The source is watching this imprisonment. Whoever that person is, I think they shouldn't be in politics. (Eyes turned to the main opposition leader here.)They are all playing with each others' lives and it looks like everything but journalism to me. 

[yourkeau 7,638]

I see your point. I didn't get your point at the beginning, maybe if I did that would have saved us 14 pages of now useless discussion. You started this that the lady organizing this mosque is a FETÖ supporter. Just like all others, rightfully arrested.

 

You write "free" press and "law" to indicate you disbelief that there is law and free press in Germany. And you find ok to arrest a journalist for lying.

Well, while in some countries lying is absolutely protected by freedom of speech, in Germany it's actually not. There is Pressekodex which is followed by press, and you can file some kind of Beschwerde if you think someone is lying. I don't know how it works exactly and what the punishment is, but it's only for members of the club (mainstream media).

 

One can still found own newspaper and lie as much as they wish, notable example is RT. Individuals can still sue them for damage to reputation, but Turkey is not an individual. Something like "Turkey funds ISIS" is protected by freedom of speech whether correct or not.

 

There are gazillion of sickos in Germany who make similar statements about Germany, this is still freedom of speech. Erdogan have different approach and here we can have no agreement.

 

With regards to FETÖ conspiracy (yes, after 14 pages I am convinced that this is a conspiracy): this is how Stalin terror started. It was not announced like "Hi, I am Stalin and I am going to put 3 million into camps today". It started as "counter revolution" conspiracy: police and security were arresting random people and accused them in counter-revolution membership. At first, indeed they arrested only those who were not sympathetic of the Soviet government. But then they arrested more and more people including the most loyal Stalinists.

 

Stalin was so paranoid that someone will overthrow him, that he started arresting own generals, own party members etc. Do you know why Soviet Union lost so much territory during 1941-1942? Despite having a better equipped army? Because Stalin fired and executed most qualified army generals.

 

You can see in which direction is Erdogan heading. Luckily for you, nobody is going to occupy Turkey, although I am not sure if Erdogan is not going to do a similar disaster to own army. Then who knows if Turkish army will be just as capable to fight against ISIS and PKK terrorists (despite conspiracies, Germany does recognize PKK as terrorist organization).

 

And do you know what was hilarious back then? That arrested Stalinists were supporting Stalin terror despite being arrested and even executed. Yes, when executed they were crying "Za Stalina! Za Rodinu!" (Let live Motherland, let live Stalin!)

 

Why? Because they were 100% convinced that it was a mistake and not on purpose. That the police really arrests spies and counter-revolutioneers and not random innocent people. They believed all arrests were justified, but their own arrest was just a small mistake (unlike arrests of millions of others).

 

This was terrible. To be a victim of the crime and do not realize this.

 

Yes, I am dramatic, but I wanted to warn you where justifying arrests can lead. This is very dangerous.

 

That's why we do not like when people are arrested in Germany without a cause. Without a proof. Regardless who they are.

 

P.S. There can be some typos, like "there" instead of "they". Feel free to point out the bits which make no sense.

[zeino 692]

20 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I see your point.

 

No, you don't. I think, right from the beginning of this discussion, I have been categorized into something I'm not - although I never bothered to "prove" myself to you. I think we had the same dynamic about the EU once, you were for some glad because you thought I had nothing against the EU or something. My point starts at a place where I am questioning the role and function of  "legitimacy" in politics. You, too, will come to that point when you stop a passive and defeatist position about everything you seem to be believing in - observing and shouting is not an active position, no matter what you make think about it. Thinking about causes, building something that can have an appeal to those causes, that can have a chance to transform them and at the same time, hopefully, not giving up on your basic principles is. To me, that principle does not start from "human rights" as you may choose. It starts from "respect for life, the right to live" that will hopefully ensure that there will be some humans that will enjoy those rights. That's why I'm severely against killing in all forms, do not fall into the superficial and indeed invalid distinction between terror and freedom fighting and use terror equally, regardless of which wing it comes from. I wouldn't like you to draw conclusions from this, too. All conclusions you have drawn about me have been wrong. If you have questions about this, please ask me. 

20 hours ago, yourkeau said:

useless

 

Completely depends on how you define "use". To be, a quality discussion is actually one which has no "use" - such as convincing anyone on anything if that's a use. That, to me, is the freest form of thought building where people have a chance to hear new, different things. More or less everything else is frozen I guess.  If I had to say one thing about this discussion, I would say one of us wants philosophy, the other wants rhetoric. 

20 hours ago, yourkeau said:

You started this that the lady organizing this mosque is a FETÖ supporter.

 

I wrote why this question came to my mind. Photos and explanations. And yes, if you are a "human rights activist", it means certain integrities are questioned about you. I can ask anything I want - in the end of the day, we are talking about my rights as I am human. So I can also question how she felt receiving an award given to Saparmurat Niyazov the Turkmenbashi before as well. Or another guy whom the womens rights movements have continuously protested on streets. And if she has an answer, then I listen to it and consider it. Women's movements - unless you know- are things where women from all views can come together sometimes. Even if they don't, they try to be aware of others' views. This is a basic ethic. I have written clearly that what disturbed me was her reply, not bothering to respond to very valid questions she knows are there and instead choosing to posit herself in what I would define as indeed a very profitable tension nowadays. Her choice. 

 

An Alavi may equally ask how on earth she dares to mention Alavi and have that guy there, given the Alavi reactions against this movement's leader. Armenians may say worse things. Likewise someone from this movement may have questions, who knows. Shall everyone shut up now so that a woman can supposedly defend their human rights? 

20 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Just like all others, rightfully arrested.

 

No. You are saying unreal things now. Plus, factually, (like if we will apply fantasy to me in a realistic way) she is not arrested. FETÖ supporters are not uniformly arrested here, either, Yourkeau. There are degrees of criminality. Actually, speaking of journalists, the prosecutor who started the investigation on Cumhuriyet Newspaper journalists - the paper of which Dündar was the editor-in-chief- is also being tried for FETÖ membership. Apply your disbelief in stuff accordingly. 

 

20 hours ago, yourkeau said:

 

P.S. There can be some typos, like "there" instead of "they". Feel free to point out the bits which make no sense.

 

No worries, completely fine by me. We are both visitors in English, I guess our capacity to understand incorrect stuff may be a bit higher because we write incorrect stuff as well. 

[yourkeau 7,638]

13 minutes ago, zeino said:

All conclusions you have drawn about me have been wrong. If you have questions about this, please ask me. 

Then might at some point decide not to write contradictory sentences.

 

For example this:

14 minutes ago, zeino said:

To me, that principle does not start from "human rights"

 

And then

14 minutes ago, zeino said:

It starts from "respect for life, the right to live"

You think UN declaration of human right is a pile of shit? Why do you need to invent your own with literally the same wording?

 

16 minutes ago, zeino said:

I'm severely against killing in all forms, do not fall into the superficial and indeed invalid distinction between terror and freedom fighting and use terror equally, regardless of which wing it comes from.

That's called "support the winner party" or "let the nature take its course = let the strongest party win".

 

What a war in my own country taught me is that neutrality and pacifism is a fiction, it's fake. Not doing anything is not making one ethical. Active military involvement makes one responsible for all war crimes done by the army, but non-involvement makes one responsible either. For not helping. Deciding to stay and watch the genocide in Rwanda (past) or Myanmar (current) and doing nothing does not make one more ethical than those who actively try to do something.

 

21 minutes ago, zeino said:

FETÖ supporters are not uniformly arrested here, either, Yourkeau. There are degrees of criminality.

There are degrees of democracy/dictatorship, zeino. And they tend to change with time. Today they are not arrested uniformly yet because Turkey is still a CE member. Basically I think that threats to introduce back death penalty have nothing to do with death penalty. It's about being a CE member under jurisdiction of Strasbourg Court of Human Rights (or "human rights", as you please). Once this happens, there will be no more hindrance to arrest anyone.

 

 

[zeino 692]

23 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I gave you a possibility to say "fuck you" to me. You didn't use it, what should I do more? Organize a Duell? Provide my real name, so you can make Interpol Red Notice warrant on me?

 

 

Thank you for the opportunity  

 

Another difference between us. I never felt anyone ever needs to give me the "opportunity" to say "fuck you" to anyone. If I want to say it, I do. Not built on "opportunity" but "necessity" the way I feel it if I ever do. Ergo, I didn't say it because I didn't want to. 

 

And the way I understand it, you did organize a duel by saying "you have no courage" actually. I didn't rise to the occasion. 

 

Interpol and all that. No, no, no, you are going to the other direction in regard to my question. I meant something else, starts with an "a", ends with a "y" and is best practised mutually in some cultures so that it is not a sign of strength/weakness but a mutual recognition of the boundaries trespassed. Do you have the Interpol in your mind in relation to me because of the Doğan Akhanlı case or do you in general think people would be willing to perpetrate you through Interpol? In the case of the former, do you think it is fair to treat me this way? 

 

Would you be interested in a connection of this question with more or less everything you have been voicing here and see how some people (in this case, I) may see similarities? 

[zeino 692]

29 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

55 minutes ago, zeino said:

All conclusions you have drawn about me have been wrong. If you have questions about this, please ask me. 

Then might at some point decide not to write contradictory sentences.

 

No. You ask me please. It will mean allowing another human being the credit of doubt before you arrive in a conclusion and not bring further conditions like expecting coherence. Is it democratic to or fair to expect that expectations should be met when we have no recognition for the expectations of the other?

 

29 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

For example this:

55 minutes ago, zeino said:

To me, that principle does not start from "human rights"

 

And then

55 minutes ago, zeino said:

It starts from "respect for life, the right to live"

You think UN declaration of human right is a pile of shit? Why do you need to invent your own with literally the same wording?

 

I am aware of the "formal", "verbal" contradiction there resulting from the use of the word "rights". But if you had asked me what I mean, instead of jumping into conclusions, I would say this: I mean "human rights" in its associative sense. In our debate for instance, that will more or less mean the journalists' rights for instance - and that only selectively as far as I understand. But the right to HIV medication is a human right for instance. That it is not present in visible form in a debate does not mean that it needs to be absent from theory. When I think of Turkey, I think one important problem that the intellectuals find themselves in is that they cannot condone terror, would you believe it? Many will not be able to easily condemn suicide bombing on ordinary urban streets, everyone seems to have "their own dead." I think this is the basic problem. The "opposition" language of the left - some portion of Turkish left is usually armed left - is actually very harsh. Like sometimes, feel sorry for a soldier who died in something, you will be a "fascist." It's that crude.

 

Often times, once people decide their cause is just, legitimate whatever, once they decide they are "the" victim, the road to seeing everyone as "collateral damage" is very quick. So, for my reasons and in the language I employ myself, I try to voice that differentiation in my understanding. If we will speak about it with the UN terminology, we can say there can be no article without the preamble. Metaphorically, preambles are important as they help us keep the articles within "the spirit" of the text. That's what I mean. Not "the UN declaration is a pile of shit." As I said, if you have a wish to understand where I'm coming from, you can ask me rather than countering directly with your wording. Or we can have a dialogue of the deaf, which will probably turn into an advertisement of everyone's views in some way, objectifying each other. Don't know. As I said before, I think of your posts. I actually know what you see in me or how you see things from afar. But I feel we cannot come to a point of debating further because of a constant counter-attack style limited to most immediate, verbal things. I also think this is the biggest problem of Turkey today, that there is no "active listening." Sometimes it feels like listening has become a waiting time for saying whatever one wants to say anyway. I'm thinking with these more basic concepts nowadays - at the cost of sounding like a tiny Buddha or Yoda- because I think ever since the foundation of this country, we, none of us, really managed to hear "the other" in a genuine sense. 

[yourkeau 7,638]

47 minutes ago, zeino said:

When I think of Turkey, I think one important problem that the intellectuals find themselves in is that they cannot condone terror, would you believe it? Many will not be able to easily condemn suicide bombing on ordinary urban streets, everyone seems to have "their own dead." I think this is the basic problem. The "opposition" language of the left - some portion of Turkish left is usually armed left - is actually very harsh. Like sometimes, feel sorry for a soldier who died in something, you will be a "fascist." It's that crude.

It's not specific to Turkey. It's called "whataboutism": I ask one question, you answer "what about this?" Great discussion tactics, but what about my original question? It is still unanswered. Yes, I used "what about" here on purpose to illustrate that I am also able to do that.

 

50 minutes ago, zeino said:

I also think this is the biggest problem of Turkey today, that there is no "active listening."

Do you think, why?

 

Would you prefer me being Martin Lejeune? German left journalist supporting Erdogan. For example:

 

Etc

 

 

[zeino 692]

9 hours ago, yourkeau said:

It's not specific to Turkey. It's called "whataboutism": I ask one question, you answer "what about this?" Great discussion tactics, but what about my original question?

 

I'm not discussing with you to win anything with any tactic. We are speaking about life and death, human beings, lives. There can be neither ego, nor winning/losing in those things. When you have shared yet again "intention" of mine, I was actually writing something else, connecting the two actually. I think it should be important for you because everyone you have been speaking of is being tried with terror. And a certain psyche - along with IMO very erroneous political moves of those involved from the opposition, from the human rights aspects etc etc- has a part in this. A recent objective poll shows that people's number 1 priority is terror here, and that's not without reason. You can evaluate how politics connects with this all the way you like. It is nevertheless very much here. 

 

As for howaboutism, if you go back and read these 14 pages, you can very clearly see who has changed the course of the religion / reform/corruption debate, despite my very clear comments that this is not a debate I would like to pull to Turkey, Germany, Erdoğan, FETÖ debates as this FETÖ thing has been first and foremost a topic of the seculars  

here - not that they too haven't connected with the guy politically btw. But none of this was heard. I didn't respond to these with "whataboutism" comments because if yu want to speak about anything, you do. I will take that only as an addition to the topic. If we are willing to go back to that original point, no problem for me. 

 

But today, especially today, I will take it to that original point and I will speak about a journalist. He has been a part of this thread since my first comments about journalist arrests of this corrupt prosecutor Zekeriya Öz. He died some hours ago, so let's remember him properly, too. If you take it as tit-for-that, that's only your perspective. But really, justice for all? 

He made me think about another journalist I have written about before, too. Yes, more details for him, too. 

 

So, Doğan Yurdakul, aged 71 died yesterday in his home. He was arrested in 2011 "Ergenekon" charges of Zekeriya Öz for being part of a terror organization, attempting to affect fair trial (ha!), etc etc with a sentence for 21 years. This journalist. He was released in 2012 due to his health conditions. The court case lasted 6 years. His wife died when he was in prison, he attended his funeral with a "special permission." In those years, this Ergenekon thing was met with praise by Turkish liberals, or everyone except the CHP wing because it was perceived as an attempt to dismantle the military control over Turkey's democracy. Turkey really had this problem. Surely journalist associations mentioned them. They actually attracted tremendous support from Silivri prison protesters, but only from the CHP wing. Elderly hardcore "laicistists" as we sometimes jokingly called them defended them in mass protests under difficult circumstances again. They were voicing things wrongly if you aske me, "how can soldiers be arrested"? hinting at the age-old reflexes of a certain political attitude that is found antidemocratic by much larger circles than AKP. These are the journalists some other journalists almost lynched. Whatever. Today, we know this was a fictive case by FETÖ. If you are not believing in this FETÖ, you are ignoring the very victims you superficially sound as if you were defending. Can Dündar's newspaper's journalists. The prosecutor who started that case is being tried with FETÖ, too.

 

Whatever allergy you may have about Erdoğan does not change the fact that  as long as you are defending these blokes, you will always have something inevitably dismissing these victimhoods. Journalism does not consist of only the people you choose to mention to me, does it? You can either develop a justice solution that encompasses all victims, or you can refer to justice only whenever you like but that will not have an effect on me. I'm happy that it will not actually. That's the anger with Can Dündar in some people, not in Erdoğan supporters but in the very seculars. That he didn't say one word about these but became a strong voice for Gülen connected newspapers. Nobody has a problem with his fair trial, but beyond that, really, not many people take his "opinions" that seriously I guess. Why should they? There are people who defend these things under all circumstances, they are liked better. It's neither our fascism or fault that he didn't choose to become one of them. Doğan Yurdakul said one thing about the FETÖ cases the day these started : "Nobody observed the presumption of innocence when we were arrested; they lynched us, decalred us guilty from the start. We mustn't corrupt our own attitude. We want them to be tried fairly, too; but we also want their crimes to be revealed. Who placed those fake digital evidence there, how did they do it, who placed those bombs found in diggings, where were those weapons found from?" Zekeriya Öz has these answers because these are his "charges", the "evidence" he "found". So when I question how there can be a mosque reform when one has no questions about this very guy living in a FETÖ place in Freiburg, when they appear together with this thing's imams, your saying these will be forgotten does not suffice. Neither does pulling it to the sphere of Erdoğan's Turkey. Read what a journalist said above carefully. 

 

If you are curious, Erdoğan did apologize for the FETÖ thing. Rather strongly. You can say anything about it. Doesn't matter. Not in relation to the above. In that one, there cannot be any questions. It's not political or ideological. You can be from any ideology. You may believe in any religious thing or non-religious thing. You may want to battle for your own rights, however you choose to defend them. But if you are not uniting with others in search of justice for the person above, if you are diluting it with other things, there is something wrong no matter what your beliefs are. It's not we versus you or anything. I expect it from all political parties, all individuals, anyone who is saying something about these. Surely I will not forget about these journalists because you tend to ignore anything you relate with Erdoğan. I have told these people to you right from the start. Had zero effect on you. At least, please don't try to suppress journalist with journalist. 

 

Dismiss this as whataboutism. This guy has been on this thread from day 1. Indeed, he is one of the most relevant journalists to my questioning of mosque reform. I'm not being off topic when I mention this guy. You are, perhaps, when you mention Erdoğan and Deniz Yücel and Meşale Tolu but because I care about journalists, I'm not dismissing what you say.