Germany's first liberal mosque opens in Berlin

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On 20.07.2017 22:25:23, yourkeau said:

1. Do you think Deniz Yücel should be in jail? I prefer "yes" or "no" answer instead of long paragraphs.

 

1. What is Deniz Yücel being charged with? He's under arrest because of what he wrote, he is under arrest to give a message etc is not the type of evaluative answer I'm asking for. We can do that, too, we can speak about this politically. But speaking about jail, journalists, oppression etc in relation to a specific person, let's once do this with clear information and framework. What are the charges as you have read, heard in Germany?

 

I'm asking this because you are asking me if a specific person should be in jail although I have openly told you that I have not read anything by him, I have not seen the court folder or official explanations and info here varies. I don't build person specific opinions this way.  So I want to rely on your info. What are they charging him with?  

 

2. Why is he in jail?

His situation is "trial under arrest", he hasn't been sentenced, yet. There are three options in Turkey. Trial under arrest. Trial with no arrest. Trial with no arrest but judicial control (you go to a police station once a week and sign something.) All forms can be used depending on a couple of factors. So, why this choice for this guy, not politically but from a legal perspective?  

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You can find all information by googling his name in Turkish. Even Wikipedia has this information. If your answer depends on exact paragraph of the criminal code, then enlighten me, how. Like "Sending journalists to jail for article 345, 223 and 678 is ok, but articles 889, 224 and 346 are not ok".

 

Because I am not interested in exact articles, in Soviet Union there was a saying "If you find a man [to get jailed], there will be no problem to find a suitable paragraph for this man", basically the Soviet system excluded the possibility of the arrested man of being not guilty.

 

What Turkey does to journalists looks exactly like Soviet system to me. The purpose is to shut all other journalists up, this is how self-censorship works: you do not tell anyone what to write and what not to write, you pretend your media are independent, but you jail or kill several critical journalists (in Russia they prefer killing, in Turkey they "only" jail), of course, for the reason totally not related to their journalist activity, after all, everyone can commit a crime. And that way other journalists, who are free, they understand that they should not criticize the government, otherwise they will end up in jail, too.

 

As ridiculous as accusation in terrorism is, it is actually very humane. In Russia they accuse journalists in rape or pedophilia. Since nobody is sympathetic to rapists, such journalists have their reputation destroyed and cannot work even after release from jail.

 

P.S. In case you feel anger, why Turkey is criticized and not other countries, the answer is simple: because it is an long year ally, of Germany and of Europe. And because many people have relatives/friends there.

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His situation is "trial under arrest", he hasn't been sentenced, yet.

Jail is jail regardless how it is technically called. That's why in most countries (I believe, in Turkey, too) the time in "Untersuchungshaft" is always counted towards the sentence in case of conviction (but if one is acquitted, nobody is going to pay any reward).

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On 06.08.2017 18:08:40, yourkeau said:

Eurobarometer: Turkey and Russia have record hight hate for the EU out of all non EU countries.

https://medium.com/the-latest-eurobarometer/future-of-europe-positive-views-from-outside-the-eu-4feaad153028

 

Very remarkable for me.

 

I have checked the link, and was particularly curious whether the Eurobarometer actually used a dangerous concept like "hate". Didn't check the links though. All I could see was "a very negative view", which I would seriously hesitate to interpret as hate, regardless of whomever uses it.  If we think everyone having very negative views about us hates us, I don't know where we would ever be - obviously not in a good place. The EU has very negative views about Turkey at the moment, shall we now think "they hate us"? Ha, if we think the EU can have a basis or a point other than hate, but Turkish people cannot ever do that when they have very negative views and can only act with hate, I think it's a very very unfair and inequal discourse in itself. People everywhere have a critical capacity beyond "hate". Again, thinking the opposite would be something I would find very dangerous. 

 

It is indeed remarkable that Russia and Turkey followed a similar pattern although I would again hesitate to attribute it to a singular factor. 

 

As for "hate" and "love" in itself, why does anyone even have to have a positive view of the EU? I think everyone is entitled to their feelings, whatever they are as long as they don' turn it into destructive action against others. (And in this example, it's not exactly unequited love, is it?) It seems that despite the low in relationships, Turkey still managed to have a higher percentage of  positive views than Norway and Switzerland, which I also find very remarkable.  

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10 minutes ago, zeino said:

All I could see was "a very negative view", which I would seriously hesitate to interpret as hate, regardless of whomever uses it.

It is hate. Surely Eurobarometer uses very politically correct language and can't include the answers like "I hate the EU". One should read along the lines...

 

Norway and Switzerland (and UK) are part of Europe and its close partners, the hate the have towards EU is because they have fear for their sovereignty, that Brussels will regulate everything, and not the people. They mean economic regulation, not human rights regulation.

 

Turkey fear is the same, but not about economics/EU directive. Turkey fear is about human rights...

 

Another journalist in custody with her small son, Meşale Tolu. Zeino, do you as well think it is ok that this "terrorist" is in jail?

 

I had a university professor who was born in a concentration camp. He spent his first 7-10 years of life in prison despite being a child and have not committed any crime. I can't believe Turkey is becoming a similar country. But the news from there are very, very disturbing.

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19 hours ago, yourkeau said:

It is hate. Surely Eurobarometer uses very politically correct language and can't include the answers like "I hate the EU". One should read along the lines...

 

 

Well, if we want to read Eurobarometer's politically correct language as hate, then maybe we should directly ask people if they "hate" anyone so that they would have a chance to represent themselves at least. (But again, I don't know if they actually worded it as "hate" while asking questions. I wouldn't think so but who knows.) If they haven't done that, what  are doing is called "reading intentions" in my political culture and is found severely antidemocratic so that's not something I will do to anyone - likewise, as I said, if anyone's criticism of me or whatever I feel I belong to is worded as "very negative view" I will not turn and say this is "hate". None of us can democratically attribute feelings to anyone without knowing what they are basing their very negative views on. Neither do we have the right to project our feelings on them, if that's what we are doing. The world would be quite a weird place if everyone closed their ears to any criticism, explaining stuff away as "they hate us, that's why." I find that irresponsible. Trying to understand always feels better to me. I will answer all the other questions, it is becoming a list but I like discussing these things. Only my focus is a bit slow nowadays. But I'm thinking on them. 

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9 minutes ago, zeino said:

Well, if we want to read Eurobarometer's politically correct language as hate, then maybe we should directly ask people if they "hate" anyone so that they would have a chance to represent themselves at least.

No, that makes no sense. It's like asking "Are you a Nazi?" Nobody will answer with "yes" including real Nazis. So, if you want to know the truth you should ask indirect questions instead.

 

Whatever, if you claim "very negative view" is not hate, let's reverse the situation: suppose it's a poll about Turkey, and two countries have significantly higher percentage of "very negative view" of Turkey. Would you consider this countries as "Turkey haters"? Would you agree, that at least these countries host more Turkey haters than the other countries?

 

13 minutes ago, zeino said:

The world would be quite a weird place if everyone closed their ears to any criticism, explaining stuff away as "they hate us, that's why." I find that irresponsible.

The purpose of Eurobarometer is rather pragmatic: to understand the business meaning of the brand "made in EU", and to understand if one can do anything to improve the opinion to attract more tourists. So, these two countries are seen as problem countries, so something should be done to make EU more attractive for them. 

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3 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Whatever, if you claim "very negative view" is not hate, let's reverse the situation: suppose it's a poll about Turkey, and two countries have significantly higher percentage of "very negative view" of Turkey. Would you consider this countries as "Turkey haters"? Would you agree, that at least these countries host more Turkey haters than the other countries?

 

I have attempted to express this reverse situation twice so far and my answer is no. I have said this, too, if you read my post above, you will see it. But again, no, I will not consider people as Turkey haters. That is deflecting criticism, which is a deaf way of being to me. And I'm not made of teflon. I will think "what are these people saying?" If they have a point, I will take that into consideration. If they are saying things like "they stink, I hope they all die"  etc, I would think that's hate. And even in hate, I will try to see if there is something that we can learn something from. On a political note, I don't think politics based on hatred help or solve anything. I like thinking that there are ways to transform it into more constructive things. I like thinking about those possibilities. But on an individual note, I don't care much about people's feelings, they are entitled to them and as I have said before, what matters is whether they turn violent, destructive etc - that I don't like. Statistically, an increase in the percentage of haters in some country does not mean that country hates my country more than others, but yeah there are haters there. Sentence 3 above applies then. 

 

There is a certain reality though. Western countries are not as appreciated in the east as they are by their own citizens in the west. One part of may be because they are manipulated - I would say the same for westerners as well. But there is another reality where western democracies are not experienced that way by people in other places. They are also severely associated with torments in the Middle East, exploitation of natural sources  etc etc. Iraq is the historical example of this for my generation. Whatever the Middle East's own problems are, it is kind of clear for people living in these geographies that military interventions etc bring more chaos than democracy and very big torments. It is also associated with imperialism, colonialism etc etc. We cannot completely ignore these experiences if we are talking about feelings although they don't inevitably result in hate, either.     

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Imperialism?

AFAIK, the only Empire Turkey was part of was Ottoman Empire.

 

The other Empire was British one. AFAIK, no former part of this Empire regrets that times. Actually, British Empire is an example, that not all colonialism is necessarily bad. At least Cyprus, Honkkong and Malta do not regret. Neither do Israel and UAE.

 

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20 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I had a university professor who was born in a concentration camp. He spent his first 7-10 years of life in prison despite being a child and have not committed any crime. I can't believe Turkey is becoming a similar country. But the news from there are very, very disturbing.

 

This is partly what we disagree on. Not that it's nice that kids grow in prison with their parents but I think differently from you in two senses. 

 

1. It is actually an earned right in many countries (including Belgium etc) to obtain permission from the court so that your child can stay with you until a certain age - here, it is 3, so that your baby is not put into childcare when she needs you most. This is, in principle, to protect a child because separation at that age actually harms the child.  Mothers whose children are out may apply court to have their children with them actually.  Growing up in prison surely hinders development if not applied under circumstances where children's developmental needs are met. But, I believe, improvement areas are those where conditions for children are made better. Turkey has done some good things about it with some legal regulations, civil projects, campaigns etc, all of which helped. I hope they go on on a continued basis. But I do not see separation of mother and child as a good thing myself. Another solution would be designing alternative sentences for short term imprisonments for mothers with children under 3 years old but there isn't that in Turkey at the moment.

 

2. So this is the disagreement - from my side. You bring these and say this is what Turkey is "becoming". But we have had this regulation for a long time. They didn't matter to you at one point, they do now. But to those of us who have been more familiar with this context, Turkey is not particularly becoming anything because of this on its own. Turkey has been dealing with things on a much larger scale, and without bringing solutions to those, everything you mention may go on for a while. Terror is truly related with this, so is what is happening in the Middle East. Everyone must learn to make politics and express themselves without resorting to guns and suicide bombing and whatnot and put a distance between themselves and these things, period. They are truly at a vile level here, Yourkeau. We can talk about why I think this is critical. 

 

But anyway, we read these new interpretations - and especially the world's reactions after the coup attempt which I personally did not find democratic - within a different context, even the jailed journalists themselves are saying that this is not purely about "democracy." I'm not saying that you are doing this as a person, neither are you any official politics representative. But at a large scale, do you genuinely believe this is just about democracy and human rights? That we can have a variety of democratic claims inside (from civil liberties and freedoms to achieving equality among women to improving conditions of the mental patients, you name it - there will probably be an early election so we will certainly hear a lot of things from everyone) does not change the fact that we can also criticize what is coming from outside. 

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37 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Imperialism?

AFAIK, the only Empire Turkey was part of was Ottoman Empire.

 

The other Empire was British one. AFAIK, no former part of this Empire regrets that times. Actually, British Empire is an example, that not all colonialism is necessarily bad. At least Cyprus, Honkkong and Malta do not regret. Neither do Israel and UAE.

 

" Imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas. Because it always involves the use of power, whether military force or some subtler form, imperialism has often been considered morally reprehensible, and the term is frequently employed in international propaganda to denounce and discredit an opponent’s foreign policy. "

 

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/imperialism

 

As we can see from this definition, imperialism is not something that is practised by empires. 

 

As for what you know about imperialisms, colonialisms and who regrets it or not, I will not try to convince you of anything. To me, any concept which involves mutinies, slavery, famine etc and against which wars of independence have been fought (India, Algeria etc etc etc) would not be discussed with statements like no former part regrets it etc. (Though the colonizer land can be perceived in ambivalent ways in postcolonial times and this is well documented.) I'm not saying this about any particular empire btw. But if you are interested in how people felt, Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth is a painful book about the psychological and psychiatric effects of colonialism because it dehumanizes people. But that's not even necessarily the period that I mentioned - more recent Middle East is more relevant. 

 

Edit: Israel was not exactly a colony btw, although some will argue that in essence it was. Still, logically, we would need to look at Palestinians in this regard I reckon. 

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Good evening, zeino! Colonialism certainly can dehumanise people. But not only at international level. Check out your neighbours! Our neighbour has made our life hell recently. We´re building up an old ruin close to his house and ours. He´s envious that we´re doing it. He offered another neighbour (the owner of the ruin ) a pittance a couple of years ago, we found out. We offered more (but didn´t know that).

What has happened?

He´s gone on Facebook denouncing us as Nazi slaveowners  and made a video ( because the engineer and his workers work in the day time and it´s hot here in Greece...it is, yes. Not our problem..blame God or nature. ) He called the police ,

 

This guy has blocked the pathway with his cement mixer, makes his own noise when he feels like working AND made plenty of noise when building his own house.Didn´t worry us..understandable noise.

 

What am I trying to say?

Ah yes, imperialism can start at a low level - envy others, try to control others. Want more.The same guy whose wife went up to the local taverna, saw her chatting to an Irish expat and threatened to take away her passport and key to their common house if she continued talking to him.

 

Human stuff and pathetic. 

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

Imperialism?

AFAIK, the only Empire Turkey was part of was Ottoman Empire.

 

The other Empire was British one. AFAIK, no former part of this Empire regrets that times. Actually, British Empire is an example, that not all colonialism is necessarily bad. At least Cyprus, Honkkong and Malta do not regret. Neither do Israel and UAE.

 

There have been a few other Empires, yourkeau! The French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Soviets, how did China get so big, and zillions of others in history! And our bloody neighbour!:lol:

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1 hour ago, zeino said:

This is partly what we disagree on. Not that it's nice that kids grow in prison with their parents but I think differently from you in two senses. 

 

1. It is actually an earned right in many countries (including Belgium etc) to obtain permission from the court so that your child can stay with you until a certain age - here, it is 3, so that your baby is not put into childcare when she needs you most. This is, in principle, to protect a child because separation at that age actually harms the child.

Either you are extremely naive and do not understand what I am trying to explain you, or you consciously support imprisonment of innocent people if raison d'etat requires that. I want to believe in the former, because I already have little faith in humanity, no need to deepen it. I can only say your posts are very disturbing. 

 

Let's hope you will not regret your support of Erdogan and will proudly tell this to your grandchildren. Because my parents do regret supporting the commies when they were young (well, they had little choice: support commies or prison, but still). They tell me a lot of funny stories which sound unbelievable these days, but they helped me to be very critical of the government.

 

12 minutes ago, john g. said:

There have been a few other Empires, yourkeau! The French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Soviets, how did China get so big, and zillions of others in history! And our bloody neighbour!:lol:

Perhaps I was unclear because I mentioned Hongkong, but I meant that region, Middle East. There were only these two Empires. Many former colonies of British Empire became more rich than UK, Hong Kong in particular is rich because it has English law and speaks English, while mainland China has outdated Chinese law, so "colonialism" is not necessarily evil (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, sometimes it is neither).

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On 09.08.2017 23:25:26, yourkeau said:

 I can only say your posts are very disturbing. 

 

I'm OK with you finding my views disturbing. I'm also OK with debating with people whose views I find disturbing. In our discussion, I don't feel you have explained anything to me. Dismissing any piece of thought that does not fit your schema of things, dismissing any contextual or factual info about situations that you obviously do not know much about, attributing intentions and feelings to me (anger, offense), telling me how to search for information and even in what language (what is that to you really?) when I asked you what you have read about stuff and offered credit of doubt actually.

 

I posted on this thread genuinely questioning how someone associating with corrupt people (guys who kept journalists and others in prison for years with fake charges) can have a potential of reforming a religion elsewhere and you even told me that these will be forgotten and people are remembered with their good deeds. It's pretty obvious from that that you don't equally care even about journalists. You don't even get curious when it is voiced by people that you have somehow judged in your mind, you don't have a problem with people who don't have a problem with that. Are you now disturbed because I reject saying this person is innocent, this person is guilty when I also say info varies and maybe this jail situation has something to do with something other than journalism, what do you know and when you attempt to discuss law without law? I will not turn to you and say these will be forgotten and we remember people with their good deeds. Maybe you do that to Deniz Yücel and whomever you want when they say they have been victimized. It's even not me who says stuff like this to people. Your Can Dündar does that. As he wrote to the victims of that period "go to another door" about a case - and generals he finds antidemocratic "historically." Only to receive letters from others saying "you said this about us, we will not say this about you" and then reminding him that journalists were involved in that case, too. That's your intellectuals here. Remembering things only when it suits them. 

 

But neither saying these to me, nor bringing up Erdoğan in everything you like changes that I find many things I have read here incoherent thorough and thorough. You can "explain" anything you like but I even don't think you have a problem with the concept dictatorship actually. Don't you think Merkel is the best politician since Adenauer already? Well, she is a politician protested by a Muslim woman exactly in the press conference where she was announcing with Sisi their mega deal. You probably know what that woman said. But Merkel certainly mentioned that death penalty is bad so that must make it alright in your eyes. So there it is. The best politician since Adenauer in your words has drawn the lines. Well, apparently some can choose to trade with dictatorships, expand automative industry and benefit from the tax income that comes from that. Fine. But please do understand that when you shout dictatorship elsewhere and "explain" things to me, I only have a bitter smile on my face. We are actually pretty lucky in that I don't think Turkey is a dictatorship. Because if I believed that, you would be the citizen of a country selling armament to a dictatorship, and while telling me what to tell my grandchildren which I would never have probably, you would probably be teaching democracy to the likes of me with the comfort of that income. And with this incoherence, I actually don't feel obliged to prove my understanding of democracy to you at all. If you can do things for money, I can do them, too, right? I can support whomever I want for my financial and other interests and that will be bad. But I have suspicions that you would be at a point to criticize me for that. Until you start criticizing your own politics first. 

 

On 09.08.2017 23:25:26, yourkeau said:

Let's hope you will not regret your support of Erdogan and will proudly tell this to your grandchildren. Because my parents do regret supporting the commies when they were young (well, they had little choice: support commies or prison, but still). They tell me a lot of funny stories which sound unbelievable these days, but they helped me to be very critical of the government.

 

More things we may be disturbed by now. Ever heard of 28 Feb victims, headscarf protests in Turkey? Women who had been studying at universities with their niqab. This right was taken from them. Check out youtube videos if you are interested and see what happened to them. They formed the longest human chain in the world to protest. Do you know what happened to them? They were tried with death penalty. Now, if nobody in Turkish politics has offered to these women any sort of assurance that they will not go back to those days and if they are supporting Erdoğan with that, it doesn't make them less democratic than yourself. Actually, I find their reasons more genuine. 

 

This debate has been done. Between Cem Özdemir and some youth in Germany, in a conference where Özdemir said those who think Turkey is super can leave - how antidemocratic, how lazy, how irresponsible. If he believes  that he should at least take its own responsiblity and campaign for kicking those people out rather than seeing the solution in their giving up on their rights. But anyway. Some youth stood up and said to him that maybe they are voting for Erdoğan because of the headscarf issue, maybe because he took giant steps toward solving the Kurdish problem, this and that. With the magic keyword there, Özdemir could only say "you are right about the Kurds." So, there you go. 

 

Many "seculars" who say "I can't recognize Turkey anymore" got very rich during the AKP period here. They do recognize that money - their houses increasing 6fold in value and whatnot. That they can afford both saying the right things in your eyes and living luxuriously does not make them more democratic than anyone actually - especially when they are silently intent on keeping their gains. 

 

Call me an Erdoğan supporter for writing these, too. It's OK. Here is more. I was visiting my mother one day and the news got very strange. Coup. We were assured of our property rights. The Parliament was bombed with people in it. They killed people on the streets. If that thing had succeeded, I think I would be living under someone who has "dreams" where Prophet Mohammed tells him who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. This person wails shaking back and forth most of the time and I cannot understand anything he says. One thing that has ever felt slightly familiar in discourse was that he wouldn't support Angel Gabriel if Angel Gabriel had a political party. I couldn't understand the reasons. Reform yourself with these all the way, not my problem. Discuss with Angel Gabriel the freedom of opinion and get your answers not from law and articles but from dreams. I don't want to exist in that sphere. It was minutes away. (Secrets you will not hear from people who say the right things to you. Many seculars say among themselves that it could only be Erdoğan who could finish this thing in Turkey.  

 

My sphere: we will probably have early elections. After the referendum, the bar has been raised to 51%, which is above the current vote of parties. (According to an analysis I have heard). According to the analyst, everyone will have to get votes from their historical opponents if they have a claim for anything. No "overthrowing fetish" will work, people who can convince people that they will hear others' concerns with soft discourses will win. Let's see how much politicians can assure "'other's" that they will not lose their rights if they come to power. It's very complex if you think everyone has rights, such as the right to live etc. It may be simpler for you if you limit stuff to whatever you like but that doesn't say anything new to anyone. That's how it has always been.   

 

 

 

 

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Sorry, didn't comment this for a long time.

 

TL:DR: yourkeau is bad, Merkel is bad, there were other arrest of journalists before Erdogan, so why do we care now and not back then?

 

I hope, this is correct summary.

 

Now this:

 

One of the thousands of Erdogan's "terrorists" and "Gülenists" who should be in jail.

 

Interpol is also bad for cancelling Red Notice, I assume?

 

Any dictator which is so offended by journalists that arrests them even abroad, deserves only a laugh.

 

And you believe that my support on Merkel is infinite and will not end, if she does this to journalists? Well, believe in what you want.

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To illustrate, what a free country is:

 

Jan Böhnemann, 2016:

 

Result: Erdogan tried to sue him in Germany.

 

Jan Böhnemann, 2015:

 

Result: Merkel didn't give a flying fuck. Maybe she even had a laugh while watching this video, who knows.

 

Self critics and humour are something only a strong man or strong woman can have. Merkel is strong. Erdogan, too weak, so compensates his small penis with this pseudo-toughness and arrests.

 

P.S. I would have never watched the song about Erdogan if he didn't sue Böhnemann. I, as many millions of German residents wanted to know what the song was about that it was worth suing, so I watched it.

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On 26.08.2017 20:29:06, yourkeau said:

Sorry, didn't comment this for a long time.

 

TL:DR: yourkeau is bad, Merkel is bad, there were other arrest of journalists before Erdogan, so why do we care now and not back then?

 

I hope, this is correct summary.

 

 

Of course it's not the correct summary. For one thing, having a disagreement with you does not entail a thought like "Yourkeau is bad" in my world. Too black and white and too personal for my liking. Again, I feel you are projecting yourself on me. (No, I'm not offended, I'm not angry, I'm not this, I'm not that.) You say this to other people when they disagree with you AFAIK, I'm not sure how much feeling or judgments they have for you, please know that I'm not debating very serious issues in my standards with you to think "Yourkeau is bad", you as a person (toward whom I  can have feelings) don't occupy a space in them. These things are debated at many levels in our everyday lives, if we called everyone "bad" with a simplistic adjective that suits the world of a 5- year- old it would be a childish world. Such an existence has no chance of building a peaceful life with recognition for the other, or respecting everyone's right to live. 

 

Yes, debating these may take a bit "long" sometimes, if you ever bother to think why people are the way they are and have a wish to transform things for the better in the way you believe. It's also because some tensions you mention are historical and very much related to terror and bloodshed that's surrounding all these. Add to this your next to zero contextual knowledge about things that you choose to comment on, yes it is sometimes long. There is a way to debate these with shorter forms, which I can do, but I'm not sure that you can do that about our sociology or political history. If you want to hear what you only like, you can surely, but that will not benefit anyone about whom you are talking as that's part of the historical tensions already. If you have a problem with people blindly believing what is given to them, and rejecting any factual, emotional, whatever context outside that, why posit yourself exactly in the same place? In the parts you didn't read, I questioned your integrity. Whether you are interested in that to go back and read or not is your existential attitude, not mine. I read everything you say and think about them. 

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Your posts become more and more passive aggressive, zeino. I see you have a class and cannot throw offenses at people, but maybe you should join other users of Toytown Germany who do not have this kind of class and write what they really think.

 

First you deny that I am bad, then write two long paragraph about how an arrogant illiterate fool I am.

 

You have no courage to call me names? You can cite @SA618, for example:

Whatever. There is partial guilt of the EU on what is going on in Turkey. She should have been a EU member long ago but still isn't. On the other hand, there are own Erdogans in the EU itself, albeit more softer ones: Orban, Kaczynski etc...

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