Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Steuer for Ebay Seller -- (no longer a) Kleinunternehmer rules

231 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, MLmunich said:

Should I put the date he started his business as the actual time he started using eBay or the date I did the Gewerbemeldung?

 

The date of the Gewerbeanmeldung.

 

7 hours ago, MLmunich said:

In Munich there are two Abteilung with the same name:

9146    München-Abteilung IV / V

9148    München-Abteilung IV / V

How do I know which one?

 

You look into his Steuernummer and see whether it starts with 146 or 148 (ignore the 9, that's just tells you it's Bavaria).

Whether it's 146 or 148 depends on the first letters of his surname: https://www.finanzamt.bayern.de/Muenchen/Kontakt/Ansprechpartner/Steuererklaerung/Andere_Einkuenfte.php?f=Muenchen&c=n&d=x&t=x

 

7 hours ago, MLmunich said:

Am I supposed to fill out the part:

Bundesfinanzamtsnummer

 

Yes, that's explained in the Elster-Steuernummer link.

In your case, it's either 9146 or 9148 (with 9 = Bavaria, and 146 or 148 your local Munich Finanzamt): http://www.spima.de/download/finanummern.pdf

 

7 hours ago, MLmunich said:

Zuständiges Amtsgericht
Handelsregisternummer

 

Leave empty, only companies that are juridical persons, e.g. an UG or a GmbH, have an entry in the Handelsregister (= company register) at a Amtsgericht (= local court).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing that I'm not quite sure if I understood from before, if you don't mind...

 

I just recently found out there is a little box to tick next to his products listed on eBay that says whether or not he collects 19% Mehrwertsteuer for the product. If you check the box then the customer will see the price like "24,99€ including Mehrwertsteuer". Previously he didn't tick this box and if a product sold for 24,99€ in Germany, then it also sold for 24,99€ everywhere. An invoice to a German customer or European private customer would look like this:

 

Product 20,00€

Shipping 4,99€

Net 21,00€

VAT 3,99€

Total 24,99€

 

And an invoice to a European business customer or third country customer would look like this:

 

Product 20,00€

Shipping 4,99€

Total 24,99€

 

From our communication before, I gathered this was the correct way to do things.

 

Well, I recently noticed this Mehrwertsteuer box and I told him he should probably start ticking this from now on. So, a customer just wrote him, a company in Greece and said he would like to buy the product with an invoice without VAT.

 

Does that still mean to write an invoice like this:

Product 20,00€

Shipping 4,99€

Total 24,99€

 

Or does it mean he has to sell it to the customer for 21,00€ AND still pay VAT to Germany on it?

 

Thanks again.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, oops, I recall you said that he does NOT need to pay German VAT on sales to (non-German) European business customers, so that is not part of my question, but does he need to sell it for 21,00€ instead of 24,99€?

 

So:

Product 16,01€

Shipping 4,99€

Total 21,00€

 

???

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off: always remember a basic rule of VAT law contained in A3.10 (5) Satz 1 UStAE:

 "Nebenleistungen teilen umsatzsteuerrechtlich das Schicksal der Hauptleistung"

= "the VAT rate of shipping is always the VAT rate of the item that is shipped".

 

So, even if you "bought" the shipping by buying a parcel label at a cost of 4.99€ from Deutsche Post or DHL, at 0% VAT (postage from the former state monopoly Deutsche Post/DHL doesn't contain VAT), once you charge this shipping to your customer, i.e. make him pay for that 4.99€ DHL parcel, you have to charge extra VAT on those 4.99€ shipping.

If you sold that customer wares that carry a 19% VAT rate, you also have to charge 19% on that shipping (if you sell books, which carry a 7% VAT rate, the VAT rate on the shipping is also 7%!):

 

16,01€ Produkt ABC, netto

  4,99€ Versandkosten, netto

_______________________

21,00€ Gesamt-Netto

  3,99€ 19% Umsatzsteuer

_______________________

24,99€ Gesamt, inklusive USt.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, MLmunich said:

Oh, oops, I recall you said that he does NOT need to pay German VAT on sales to (non-German) European business customers, so that is not part of my question, but does he need to sell it for 21,00€ instead of 24,99€?

 

If you sell to another EU business, though you issue an invoice without VAT, i.e. a net invoice (§4 Nr. 1 Buchstabe b UStG),  according to §14a (3) UStG that invoice has to contain both:

  1. his German VAT-ID and
  2. the client's non-German VAT-ID:

 

 

Example invoice for an innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung:

 

******************************************************

                                                         Rechnungsnr. 2017-354

 

16,01€ Produkt ABC, netto

  4,99€ Versandkosten, netto

_______________________

21,00€ Gesamt-Netto

 

Innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung, umsatzsteuerbefreit nach §4 Nr. 1 Buchstabe b UStG.

Lieferzeitpunkt: date you brought the parcel to Deutsche Post/DHL 

 

USt-ID Lieferer: DE...

USt-ID Leistungsempfänger: GR...

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I understand about the VAT being on the total net value including shipping.

 

What I'm still a little confused about is...

 

A) If he doesn't check this box, then the customer sees only:

 

Preis: EUR 99,99

 

And his invoices look like this:

 

German & EU private customers:

Product ABC     €99,99 

Shipping            €4,99

Gesamt Netto   €88,22

MwSt. 19%       €16,76       

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

EU businesses & third countries:

Product ABC     €99,99 

Shipping            €4,99      

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

And the only money he loses off of the advertised price is the 16,67€ VAT paid on sales to German and EU private customers. He doesn't lose any VAT off of the advertised price for EU businesses and third countries. I thought that's why you said it's a really good business model to sell to EU businesses and third countries.

 

B) If he checks this Mehrwertsteuer box, then the customer sees:

 

Preis:

EUR 99,99
(inkl. MwSt.)
EUR 84,03
(exkl. MwSt.)

 

And his invoices would have to look like this:

 

German & EU private customers:

Product ABC     €99,99 

Shipping            €4,99

Gesamt Netto   €88,22

MwSt. 19%       €16,76       

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

EU businesses:

Product ABC     €84,03

Shipping            €4,99

Gesamt Netto   €89,02

 

Third countries:

Product ABC     €99,99 

Shipping            €4,99      

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

In that case it would mean, he loses 16,76€ in VAT off of sales to German and EU business customers AS WELL AS 16,76€ in VAT refund to EU businesses, and only gets the full advertised price for third countries.

 

I recall you saying that it is illegal to add VAT onto the advertised price, and neither A nor B options do that. But is option A (not checking the Mehrwertsteuer box) illegal? (In which case, I honestly didn't know.) Does he have to check this box and lose 19% of the advertised price to EU business customers?

 

Thanks!

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MLmunich said:

Ok, I understand about the VAT being on the total net value including shipping.

 

Then why are you so keen to lose money on the shipping?

You are buying a DHL parcel label from Deutsche Post at 4.99€, and are selling it on at 4.99€/1.19 = 4.19€. 

Which means you lose 0.80€ on every parcel.

 

***************************************

 

Let's go back a step.

Do you remember that when selling a product to a non-EU (= third country) private or business customer, invoices are always without VAT, since it's an Ausfuhrlieferung?

So an invoice to a non-EU country would have exactly the same net amounts as an innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung, i.e. when you sell to an EU business customer.

 

*************************************************

 

Correct would be, for a product that costs 99.99€ including 19% VAT --> 99.99€/1.19 = 84.03€ net

and shipping that's 4.99€*1.19 = 5.94€ including VAT --> 5.94€/1.19 = 4.99€ net

 

Case 1: Selling a product to a German business or private customer. Selling a product to an EU private customer

 

84.03€ product ABC

+ 4.99€ shipping

_____________________

=    89.02€ total net

   + 16.91€ 19% VAT
_____________________

=   105.93€ total including VAT

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Case 2: Selling a product to an EU business customer

 

84.03€ product ABC

+ 4.99€ shipping

_____________________

= 89.02€ total net

 

Innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung, umsatzsteuerfrei nach §4 Nr. 1 Buchstabe b UStG.

 

own VAT-ID

buyer's VAT-ID

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Case 3: Selling a product to a non-EU business or private customer

 

84.03€ product ABC

+ 4.99€ shipping

_____________________

= 89.02€ total net

 

Ausfuhrlieferung, umsatzsteuerfrei nach §4 Nr. 1 Buchstabe a UStG.

 

 

6 hours ago, MLmunich said:

In that case it would mean, he loses 16,76€ in VAT off of sales to German and EU business customers AS WELL AS 16,76€ in VAT refund to EU businesses, and only gets the full advertised price for third countries.

 

It is a fact of life that you always have to forward the VAT that is contained in the prices you charge to the Finanzamt.

You don't "lose" that VAT, it was never yours, you are just the person collecting it for the Finanzamt.

 

For a German private or business customer, or a EU private customer, the advertised price is 99.99€, of which 15.96€ are VAT that you immediately have to forward to the Finanzamt.

 

For an EU business customer, or a non-EU private or business customer, the advertised price should be 84.03€, and no VAT is contained in it.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello again,

 

I was away with family for the holidays and am now back and trying to process our last few messages again.

 

On 11/9/2017, 4:47:59, PandaMunich said:

Then why are you so keen to lose money on the shipping?

You are buying a DHL parcel label from Deutsche Post at 4.99€, and are selling it on at 4.99€/1.19 = 4.19€. 

Which means you lose 0.80€ on every parcel.

 

I guess what you were saying about losing money on shipping is that if I consider 4,99€ as gross (already including VAT), like this: 

Product ABC gross    €99,99 (netto €84,03)

Shipping gross           €4,99 (netto €4,19)

Gesamt Netto   €88,22

MwSt. 19%       €16,76       

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

then I keep €88,22 and forward €16,76 to the Finanzamt.

 

And if I consider the €4,99 as netto (not including VAT, must add VAT on top), like this:

Product ABC netto     €84,03 

Shipping netto            €4,99

Gesamt Netto   €89,01

MwSt. 19%       €16,91       

Gesamtsumme €105,92

 

then I keep €89,01 and forward €16,91 to the Finanzamt.

 

Is that what you meant? Just that if I consider €4,99 as the netto amount, then me and the Finanzamt both earn a little more?

 

If that's what you mean, I think it's not possible to do that, because eBay only allows you to show the price of the product as including or not including VAT-- you can't show whether or not VAT is included in the shipping. So if I check the Mehrwertsteuer option, then it shows:

 

Preis:

EUR 99,99
(inkl. MwSt.)
EUR 84,03
(exkl. MwSt.)

Shipping:

4,99

 

and NOT:

 

Preis:

EUR 99,99
(inkl. MwSt.)
EUR 84,03
(exkl. MwSt.)

Shipping:

5,94

(inkl. MwSt.)

4,99

(exkl. MwSt.)

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to the question of whether or not to check the box to display the price as including Mehrwertsteur, I guess what I'm still not clear on is:

 

Is it allowed to not check the box, so that only €99,99 displays and use €99,99 as the net price for EU businesses and third countries and €84,03 as the net price for Germany and EU private customers? So essentially have 2 different net prices? Or is there a law that the net price must be the same for everybody?

 

If not, I recall you saying that selling to primarily EU businesses and third countries would be a good business model. What exactly would be good about it if you only keep €84,03 regardless of where in the world the customer is?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Is that what you meant? Just that if I consider €4,99 as the netto amount, then me and the Finanzamt both earn a little more?

 

No, if you charge 4.99€ net for that DHL parcel, then you don't earn anything (but neither do you make a loss). The Finanzamt does earn the 0.80€ VAT.

 

For you to make a profit (= earn) on the sale of the DHL parcel, you would have to charge more than 4.99€ net (remember, you profit is calculated from the "net" prices), i.e. more than 5.94€ net gross for that DHL parcel.

 

If you just charge 4.99€ gross for that DHL parcel then you are making a loss of 0.80€, since that would mean 4.19€ net, and you had bought it at 4.99€ = net price (= gross price, since DHL price was exempted from VAT). 

 

The concept is really simple: don't sell a product for less than you paid for it, if you don't want to make a loss.

 

34 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

If that's what you mean, I think it's not possible to do that, because eBay only allows you to show the price of the product as including or not including VAT-- you can't show whether or not VAT is included in the shipping. So if I check the Mehrwertsteuer option, then it shows:

 

Well, ebay isn't very good at understanding tax law.

Though since it evolved from the case "private person" sells to another "private person", it's not surprising - at least they managed to understand that the main price, the 99.99€ contains VAT.

 

In that case, you should simply charge 5.94€ gross or more for that parcel, e.g. 5.99€ is a nice psychological price.

 

34 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

As to the question of whether or not to check the box to display the price as including Mehrwertsteur, I guess what I'm still not clear on is:

 

Is it allowed to not check the box, so that only €99,99 displays and use €99,99 as the net price for EU businesses and third countries and €84,03 as the net price for Germany and EU private customers? So essentially have 2 different net prices? Or is there a law that the net price must be the same for everybody?

 

If not, I recall you saying that selling to primarily EU businesses and third countries would be a good business model. What exactly would be good about it if you only keep €84,03 regardless of where in the world the customer is?

 

There's a law that the gross price has to the same for everybody, and that everywhere where private customers can also shop, all prices have to be shown including VAT.

 

Just check the "Mehrwertsteuer option", and if you sell to a business customer in the EU, or to a third country, you get to keep 99.99€ and not just 84.03€, i.e. your profit is higher by 15.96€.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he is charging more for shipping and handling than he actually pays for shipping, so he probably isn't losing any money to VAT, but rather making a little profit there. 

 

"There's a law that the gross price has to the same for everybody, and that everywhere where private customers can also shop, all prices have to be shown including VAT.”

 

Hmm... So that means the law says that if €99,99 is the gross price, then €99,99 is what must be displayed? Do you mean private DE and EU customers or ALL private customers? I believe there might be an option to make different ads for different countries, so would that mean he should make ads showing €99,99 inkl VAT/€84,03 exkl VAT for just Germany and EU and make ones that only show €99,99 for third countries, so that that third country customers don't ask to pay only €84,03?

 

Also, really? All products in the world must be sold for the same gross price no matter where they are sold? That doesn't seem like reality.

 

”Just check the "Mehrwertsteuer option", and if you sell to a business customer in the EU, or to a third country, you get to keep 99.99€ and not just 84.03€, i.e. your profit is higher by 15.96€.”

 

The problem with checking the Mehrwertsteuer option is that it shows the price like this:

 

Preis:

EUR 99,99
(inkl. MwSt.)
EUR 84,03
(exkl. MwSt.)

 

So EU businesses and third countries will say they don't need to pay VAT and will only pay 84,03. How do I keep the 15,96€ if I'm showing the net price?

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

There's a law that the gross price has to the same for everybody, and that everywhere where private customers can also shop, all prices have to be shown including VAT.”

 

Hmm... So that means the law says that if €99,99 is the gross price, then €99,99 is what must be displayed? Do you mean private DE and EU customers or ALL private customers? I believe there might be an option to make different ads for different countries, so would that mean he should make ads showing €99,99 inkl VAT/€84,03 exkl VAT for just Germany and EU and make ones that only show €99,99 for third countries, so that that third country customers don't ask to pay only €84,03?

 

Also, really? All products in the world must be sold for the same gross price no matter where they are sold? That doesn't seem like reality.

 

Germany can only lay down laws for Germany, that goes without saying.

 

If you can do different ads for non-EU (= third) countries, go ahead.

 

8 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

The problem with checking the Mehrwertsteuer option is that it shows the price like this:

 

Preis:

EUR 99,99
(inkl. MwSt.)
EUR 84,03
(exkl. MwSt.)

 

So EU businesses and third countries will say they don't need to pay VAT and will only pay 84,03. How do I keep the 15,96€ if I'm showing the net price?

 

Then choose an option that only shows one price, 99.99€.

You will anyway have to do "proper" accounting with regards to VAT in your own double-entry bookkeeping for the Finanzamt, so you don't really care what it says ebay-internally.

 

But really, we are getting outside the remit of this thread - this was not meant to be a "how to tweak ebay" thread, but a tax thread.

You will just have to work within the limits that the ebay selling platform, that you have chosen to sell on, sets.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, thanks. So then just to confirm... It is legal to list €99,99 as the price and then invoices look like 

 

This for German and EU private customers:

Product ABC €99,99

Shipping €4,99

Gesamt Netto   €88,22

MwSt. 19%       €16,76

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

And this for EU businesses and third countries:

Product ABC €99,99

Shipping €4,99

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

So the net price of the product for Germans and EU individuals is 84,03 and the net price for EU businesses and third countries is 99,99. Right?

 

Thank you.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes.

 

7 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

This for German and EU private customers:

Product ABC €99,99

Shipping €4,99

Gesamt Netto   €88,22

MwSt. 19%       €16,76

Gesamtsumme €104,98

 

But again, though you probably can no longer hear it ;): if you charge shipping 4.99€ gross and not 5.94€ gross, you are making a loss on that DHL parcel.

You would only not make a loss if you charge:

 

On 11/9/2017, 4:47:59, PandaMunich said:

Case 1: Selling a product to a German business or private customer. Selling a product to an EU private customer

 

84.03€ product ABC

+ 4.99€ shipping

_____________________

=    89.02€ total net

   + 16.91€ 19% VAT
_____________________

=   105.93€ total including VAT

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, but supposing the actual cost of shipping for him was only €2,99, he'd still be making a profit of 4,19-2,99= €1,20, right?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm not sure whether I should post this here or start a new topic. My husband is trying to grow his business by manufacturing and selling machines. I guess he will get the parts used and new from different suppliers, put the machines together in Vietnam, ship them to Germany and sell them to the world. Is it just as simple as that or are there many legalities involved? Do you think he needs a lawyer? I

 have no clue what legalities are involved so I'm very stressed about this. Also, does he need a different type of gewerbemeldung?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does a steuerberater also tell you what kind of gewerbemeldung you need?

 

He said he's interested in having a company here to sell the machines that he makes in Vietnam and not just selling on eBay. I'm not sure what that entails! Any idea where to start?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0