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Steuer for Ebay Seller -- (no longer a) Kleinunternehmer rules

231 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, MLmunich said:

Long time no see, I was busy with the baby who arrived a couple weeks ago!

 

Congratulations!

 

5 hours ago, MLmunich said:

I'm back at it with the VAT announcements and looking back through our chat to recap on the info again. Is this correct:

 

Line 20, field 41: Sales to EU business customers INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS (these were net invoices!) Also do a "Zusammenfassende Meldung" in which you also declare this.

Line 26, field 81: Net sales (not including VAT) to German business and private customers and EU private customers INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS

 

Line 33, field 89: Fictive VAT collected on sales to EU businesses. 
If you bought a product from an EU business (= innergemeinschaftlicher Erwerb) and you told them your German VAT-ID, they charged you the net amount in their invoice. You will owe German VAT on this net amount --> you fill this net amount into field 89, and the 19% German VAT on it is calculated and filled in the field to the right of it:

5936fe29156d2_2017-06-0621_08_32-Musterd


Line 42, field 45: Sales to non-EU countries INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS

Line 56, field 66: All VAT paid on purchases from German businesses

Line 58, field 62: Einfuhrumsatzsteuer paid

 

Line 57, field 61: Fictive VAT collected on sales to EU businesses
You "paid" the German VAT on "innergemeinschaftlicher Erwerbe" (by filling it into field 89) on page 1 of the VAT announcement. Now you "get it back" on page 2 by filling it into field 61:

5936fe7e7dbcf_2017-06-0621_10_52-Musterd

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11 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

Line 20, field 41: Sales to EU business customers INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS (these were net invoices!) Also do a "Zusammenfassende Meldung" in which you also declare this.

 

Sorry, what do you mean by "these were net invoices"? What exactly do I write in line 20, field 41?

 

11 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

Line 33, field 89: Fictive VAT collected on sales to EU businesses. 
If you bought a product from an EU business (= innergemeinschaftlicher Erwerb) and you told them your German VAT-ID, they charged you the net amount in their invoice. You will owe German VAT on this net amount --> you fill this net amount into field 89, and the 19% German VAT on it is calculated and filled in the field to the right of it:

If he didn't tell them his VAT-ID, does he still need to fill these two lines out the same way?

 

11 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

Congratulations!

Thanks :-)

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Quote

Sorry, what do you mean by "these were net invoices"? What exactly do I write in line 20, field 41?

 

Line 20, field 41 is the "innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung", i.e. the buyer has proved to you that he's an EU business by providing his VAT-ID. Therefore you do not charge him any VAT, i.e. you charged him only the net amount in your invoice (net means in the context of VAT law: without VAT). So you write the amount from the invoice that you issued in here, this is an amount without VAT. The buyer will have to pay VAT on this net amount in his own country, and to be sure he does, they use the snitching mechanism of the "Zusammenfassende Meldung" (ZM). You declare this "innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung" in your ZM, which the Bundeszentralamt für Steuern then fowards to the tax department of the EU country your EU-business buyer is located in, to ensure he doesn't "forget" paying that VAT. Of course, these countries also have VAT announcements, and since what is an "innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung" for you is an "innergemeinschaftlicher Erwerb" for that EU business buyer, so he "pays" it in one place of his VAT announcement, and "gets it back" in another place of his VAT announcement, so declaring it doesn't "hurt" him.

 

Quote

If he didn't tell them his VAT-ID, does he still need to fill these two lines out the same way?

 

No, if he didn't tell the EU seller his German VAT-ID then it wasn't an "innergemeinschaftlicher Erwerb" (which would have been invoiced net = without VAT), but a run-of-the-mill, standard invoice in which that EU country's VAT rate was charged, i.e. that EU seller treated him as if he were an EU private customer, since he didn't give proof he was an EU business.

 

So if he didn't tell them his VAT-ID that invoice doesn't appear at all in the German VAT announcement.

He may go through the torturous process described earlier in this thread to get back that foreign VAT from that EU country's tax department (via the central claims process at the Bundeszentralamt für Steuern) by proving to them he is an EU business, but that's not part of the German VAT reimbursement process:

 

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Hi again :-)

 

My mom just left after visiting for 2 weeks, so I'm back at it again. I've finished making all of the 2017 invoices and am putting the finishing touches on the VAT announcements. I submit this  Zusammenfassende Meldung every month with the VAT announcement, right?

 

Also, I'm about to do all of invoices for 2016... Is there a statement or reference to a law I need to put at the bottom of each invoice stating that he was a Kleinunternehmer so the sale was VAT free? (Like the " UMSATZSTEUERFREIE AUSFUHRLIEFERUNG " used for foreign customers and " INNERGEMEINSCHAFTLICHE LIEFERUNG " used for EU business customers) If so, what is it?

 

Thanks!

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46 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

I submit this  Zusammenfassende Meldung every month with the VAT announcement, right?

 

You can do monthly "Zusammenfassende Meldungen" if you want (in that case, you only submit it for months for which you have entries in it): https://www.haufe.de/finance/steuern-finanzen/zusammenfassende-meldungen-innerhalb-der-eu/meldezeitraum-und-abgabefristen-von-zm_190_148466.html

 

However, if the total quarterly turnover of your innergemeinschaftliche Lieferungen/sonstige Leistungen during the last 4 quarters was below 50,000€ (i.e. not more than 50,000€ worth of innergemeinschaftliche Lieferungen/sonstige Leistungen a quarter) - which I assume - then you can submit just quarterly "Zusammenfassende Meldungen", see here: http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_International/USt_Kontrollverfahren_ZM_eCommerce/Zusammenfassende_Meldungen/FAQ/FAQ_ZM_2012/faq_ZM_node.html#faq20620

 

46 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Also, I'm about to do all of invoices for 2016... Is there a statement or reference to a law I need to put at the bottom of each invoice stating that he was a Kleinunternehmer so the sale was VAT free? (Like the " UMSATZSTEUERFREIE AUSFUHRLIEFERUNG " used for foreign customers and " INNERGEMEINSCHAFTLICHE LIEFERUNG " used for EU business customers) If so, what is it?

 

Yes, all Kleinunternehmer invoices have to contain this sentence:

"Es erfolgt kein Ausweis der Umsatzsteuer aufgrund der Anwendung der Kleinunternehmerregelung gem. § 19 UStG."

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Hi again! Almost done.

 

I'm on to the income taxes! Quick question-- since I am using Elster this time, I cannot make one of those little "Zu Anlage S" papers that my friend helped me make before for my self-employment. So should I also do the Anlage EÜR? I only earned about 4000€.

 

Thanks.

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So going back through our conversation and related threads, these are the forms I will need for my 2016 income and turnover taxes, right?

 

1. Cover page/Mantelbogen

2. Anlage N- for husband's fixed job

3. Anlage S- for my freelance income

4. "Zu Anlage S"/profit-loss statement or Anlage EUR for my freelance income

4. Anlage G- for husband's ebay

5. Anlage EUR- for husband's ebay

6. Umsatzsteuererklärung

 

Everything except for #6 Anlage EUR seems pretty easy to fill out. I looked at your instructions from here, but numbered lines from the 2011 Anlage EÜR don't quite match up with the 2016 Elster Anlage EÜR I'm working on. I've made a rough list of his expenses for 2016 and put the field I think it goes in on the Elster 2016 Anlage EÜR. Could you confirm?

 

1. plane tickets to and from Vietnam

-> Line 61 Sonstige tatsächliche Fahrtkosten ohne AfA und Zinsen (z.B. Reparaturen, Wartungen, Treibstoff, Kosten für Flugstrecken, Kosten für öffentliche Verkehrsmittel)

2. o2, skype, internet

-> Line 40  Aufwendungen für Telekommunikation (z.B. Telefon, Internet)

3. workers in Vietnam

-> Line 27 Ausgaben für eigenes Personal (z.B. Gehälter, Löhne und Versicherungsbeiträge) 

4. eBay fees

- > ???

5. construction of his machining workshop

-> Line 26  AfA auf unbewegliche Wirtschaftsgüter (ohne AfA für das häusliche Arbeitszimmer)

6. cost of machines for manufacturing

-> Line 30  AfA auf bewegliche Wirtschaftsgüter (z.B. Maschinen, Kfz)

7. shipping costs

-> ???

8. products/goods/wares (not sure which is the official term, but I'm referring to used machine parts he buys in Vietnam for resale on eBay)

-> Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten

9. materials

-> Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten

10. internet & utilities for workshop in Vietnam

->  Line 39 Sonstige Aufwendungen für betrieblich genutzte Grundstücke (ohne Schuldzinsen und AfA)

11. office supplies (cell phone case, screen protector)

-> Line 52 Übrige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben

 

Unfortunately he only saved a really small portion of the receipts for #7, #8 & #11, and did not get any receipts for #6, #9 & #10. Other than him not being able to deduct the expenses for the discarded/not-obtained receipts, does this pose a problem? I mean, will the Finanzamt see that his Umsatz was so much higher than his expenses for shipping, goods, materials, machines, etc. and say that his business isn't legitimate? (By the way, his actual profit is looking quite low already anyway :() I'm hounding him to keep them or get them from now on!

 

These are my other remaining questions:

1. How do I depreciate the cost of construction of his workshop? I tried to find an answer in a previous thread, but the link was expired: 

On 2/13/2011, 5:20:47, PandaMunich said:

Line 28: depreciation for goods you bought (e.g. machines, cars, computer, printer). Look up the mandatory depreciation period in years for each type of good in this official table.

2. Do I still need to write net amounts with VAT in Line 49  Gezahlte Vorsteuerbeträge for these sections: Sonstige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben,  Beschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben und Gewerbesteuer,   Kraftfahrzeugkosten und andere Fahrtkosten even though he was a Kleinunternehmer in 2016? 

3. If I just do a simple Zu Anlage S profit-loss statement for my freelance work as I did in previous years, how do I attach that to my electronic submission? Or is Anlage EÜR the only one I can submit electronically?

4. I found a little receipt for his Gewerbeanmenldung (47€)... can he minus that and if so where? Also, we didn't register his business until August and also put the start date as August, even though he was using eBay the whole year (I didn't understand anything about what he was doing at that point, if it was a Gewerbe, and had no idea what the start date was! I just registered him as my best guess)... do I need to go to the KVR and change that so that they don't do the pro-rated thing regarding Umsatzsteuer? (I left the section " Dauer der Unternehmereigenschaft. (nur ausfüllen, falls nicht vom 1. Januar bis zum 31. Dezember 2016) " blank)

5. Can I subtract public transportation costs here in Germany for his online business? I know I did for my freelance work because I was travelling to the customer or the workplace. I'm not sure how many times his using public transportation was relevant to his business. Probably when he registered his online business or bought any tools here... can't think of any other times it would be relevant :blink: In that case would you only deduct a portion of the public transportation costs for the days he was doing things like that?

6. I can probably minus bank fees too, right? Which section would that go in?

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Also, this is VAT-related again, but I just noticed that all of the Hermes sticker receipts say this under the Gesamtbetrag:

 

"Der Gesamtbetrag enthält 19% MwSt.

Bitte heben Sie diese QUITTUNG als Abgabebeleg auf."

 

Do you think in this case I can still pencil the VAT amount onto it and declare it on his VAT announcements?

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On 7/9/2017, 7:05:38, MLmunich said:

1. How do I depreciate the cost of construction of his workshop? I tried to find an answer in a previous thread, but the link was expired:

 

AfA-Tabelle: http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardartikel/Themen/Steuern/Weitere_Steuerthemen/Betriebspruefung/AfA-Tabellen/2000-12-15-afa-103.pdf

 

 

What kind of workshop?

Has he built a building? If yes, then the depreciation is 3% of the pure building price (= without the worth of the ground beneath it) according to §7 Absatz 4 Satz 1 Nr, 1 EStG.

 

On 7/9/2017, 7:05:38, MLmunich said:

2. Do I still need to write net amounts with VAT in Line 49  Gezahlte Vorsteuerbeträge for these sections: Sonstige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben,  Beschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben und Gewerbesteuer,   Kraftfahrzeugkosten und andere Fahrtkosten even though he was a Kleinunternehmer in 2016? 

 

No, in the year he was a Kleinunternehmer you fill in the amounts including VAT everywhere, since he didn't get that VAT back.

 

On 7/9/2017, 7:05:38, MLmunich said:

3. If I just do a simple Zu Anlage S profit-loss statement for my freelance work as I did in previous years, how do I attach that to my electronic submission? Or is Anlage EÜR the only one I can submit electronically?

 

They no longer accept simple paper profit/loss statements.

There is no possibility to attach anything to an electronic tax return, you will simply have to also fill in an Anlage EÜR for yourself, too.

 

On 7/9/2017, 7:05:38, MLmunich said:

4. I found a little receipt for his Gewerbeanmenldung (47€)... can he minus that and if so where? Also, we didn't register his business until August and also put the start date as August, even though he was using eBay the whole year (I didn't understand anything about what he was doing at that point, if it was a Gewerbe, and had no idea what the start date was! I just registered him as my best guess)... do I need to go to the KVR and change that so that they don't do the pro-rated thing regarding Umsatzsteuer? (I left the section " Dauer der Unternehmereigenschaft. (nur ausfüllen, falls nicht vom 1. Januar bis zum 31. Dezember 2016) " blank)

 

You can put those 47€ into line 45 of Anlage EÜR.

No need to change anything, the Gewerbeamt doesn't communicate with the Finanzamt.
Yes, leaving that blank is best, since the truth is that he was self-employed the whole year 2016.

 

On 7/9/2017, 7:05:38, MLmunich said:

5. Can I subtract public transportation costs here in Germany for his online business? I know I did for my freelance work because I was travelling to the customer or the workplace. I'm not sure how many times his using public transportation was relevant to his business. Probably when he registered his online business or bought any tools here... can't think of any other times it would be relevant :blink: In that case would you only deduct a portion of the public transportation costs for the days he was doing things like that?


You can, but think whether it isn't too much hassle working it out...

 

On 7/9/2017, 7:05:38, MLmunich said:

6. I can probably minus bank fees too, right? Which section would that go in?

 

Yes, if that bank account was used only for his business, or bank fees directly related to business transactions.

Stick them either into line 45 or 52 of Anlage EÜR.

 

On 7/9/2017, 8:21:31, MLmunich said:

Do you think in this case I can still pencil the VAT amount onto it and declare it on his VAT announcements?


Yes, as long as each invoice was for 150€ or less.

 

On 7/10/2017, 9:49:01, MLmunich said:

Can he minus the cost of internet if the bill was in my name?

 

Yes.

But he cannot get the VAT back from it since the invoice isn't in his name.

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Thank you, Panda! :-)

 

Could you tell me if this looks about right and where the ebay fees and shipping costs should go on the EÜR?

 

1. plane tickets to and from Vietnam

-> Line 61 Sonstige tatsächliche Fahrtkosten ohne AfA und Zinsen (z.B. Reparaturen, Wartungen, Treibstoff, Kosten für Flugstrecken, Kosten für öffentliche Verkehrsmittel)

2. o2, skype, internet

-> Line 40  Aufwendungen für Telekommunikation (z.B. Telefon, Internet)

3. workers in Vietnam

-> Line 27 Ausgaben für eigenes Personal (z.B. Gehälter, Löhne und Versicherungsbeiträge) 

4. eBay fees

- > ???

5. construction of his machining workshop

-> Line 28  AfA auf unbewegliche Wirtschaftsgüter (ohne AfA für das häusliche Arbeitszimmer)

6. cost of machines for manufacturing

-> Line 30  AfA auf bewegliche Wirtschaftsgüter (z.B. Maschinen, Kfz)

7. shipping costs

-> ???

8. products/goods/wares (not sure which is the official term, but I'm referring to used machine parts he buys in Vietnam for resale on eBay)

-> Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten

9. materials

-> Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten

10. internet & utilities for workshop in Vietnam

->  Line 39 Sonstige Aufwendungen für betrieblich genutzte Grundstücke (ohne Schuldzinsen und AfA)

11. office supplies (cell phone case, screen protector)

-> Line 52 Übrige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben

 

Thank you {8->

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1. plane tickets to and from Vietnam

-> Line 61 Sonstige tatsächliche Fahrtkosten ohne AfA und Zinsen (z.B. Reparaturen, Wartungen, Treibstoff, Kosten für Flugstrecken, Kosten für öffentliche Verkehrsmittel)

2. o2, skype, internet

-> Line 40  Aufwendungen für Telekommunikation (z.B. Telefon, Internet)

3. workers in Vietnam

-> Line 27 Ausgaben für eigenes Personal (z.B. Gehälter, Löhne und Versicherungsbeiträge) 

4. eBay fees

-> Line 52 Übrige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben

5. construction of his machining workshop

-> Line 28  AfA auf unbewegliche Wirtschaftsgüter (ohne AfA für das häusliche Arbeitszimmer)

6. cost of machines for manufacturing

-> Line 30  AfA auf bewegliche Wirtschaftsgüter (z.B. Maschinen, Kfz)

7. shipping costs

-> Line 52 Übrige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben

8. products/goods/wares (not sure which is the official term, but I'm referring to used machine parts he buys in Vietnam for resale on eBay)

-> Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten

9. materials

-> Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten

10. internet & utilities for workshop in Vietnam

->  Line 40 Aufwendungen für Telekommunikation (z. B. Telefon, Internet)

11. office supplies (cell phone case, screen protector)

-> Line 52 Übrige unbeschränkt abziehbare Betriebsausgaben

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Great, thanks!

10 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

10. internet & utilities for workshop in Vietnam

->  Line 40 Aufwendungen für Telekommunikation (z. B. Telefon, Internet)

Ok, so internet goes in Line 40... but where do electricity and water for the workshop go?

 

On 8/4/2017, 9:58:47, PandaMunich said:

What kind of workshop?

Has he built a building? If yes, then the depreciation is 3% of the pure building price (= without the worth of the ground beneath it) according to §7 Absatz 4 Satz 1 Nr, 1 EStG.

It's a cement building on his grandma's land that he built for his workshop. I'm not sure if he built it in 2016 or one or 2 years before... I have to ask him. A few questions on this:

1. In the depreciation section (Absetzung für Abnutzung AfA) I notice there are two places to write in the value: Übertrag von Seite 5 oder selbst ermittelter Betrag, which do I put the value in?

2. If the value was 10,000, then is the amount I write 300€?

3. Is Seite 5 the "Anlageverzeichnis"? How do I fill this out? Is it line 4 "Gebäude"? Would this be right?

Quote

 

Grundstücke und Grunstücksgleiche Rechte

Gruppe/Bezeichnung des Wirtschaft Gutes

4. Gebäude: Werkstatt

Anschaffungs-/Herstellungskosten/Einlagewert

10,000€

Buchwert zu Beginn des Gewinnermittlungszeitraums (10,000€-600€ (2 years@300€ each)) *supposing he built it 2 years ago

9,400€

Zugänge

???

AfA Auflösungsbetrag

???

Abgänge (insgesamt Übertrag in Zeile 35 EÜR)

300€

Buchwert am Ende des Gewinnermittlungszeitraums

9,100€

 

 

He has a bunch of second-hand machines there too, but I don't think he has receipts from them. If he did though, where would those go? 11. Büroausstattung?

 

Do I need to write something in "Sammelposten"? (not sure what this means)

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46 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Ok, so internet goes in Line 40... but where do electricity and water for the workshop go?

 

Yes, those you can put into line 39.

 

46 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

1. In the depreciation section (Absetzung für Abnutzung AfA) I notice there are two places to write in the value: Übertrag von Seite 5 oder selbst ermittelter Betrag, which do I put the value in?

2. If the value was 10,000, then is the amount I write 300€?
3. Is Seite 5 the "Anlageverzeichnis"? How do I fill this out? Is it line 4 "Gebäude"? Would this be right?

 

Yes, "Seite 5" is probably the Anlageverzeichnis "Anlage AVEÜR".

 

Just try it out, if it won't automatically fill into the Anlage EÜR, line 28:

59898a5c7d3f5_2017-08-0811_53_41-Fotos.p

the amount from the form "Anlage AVEÜR" (= page 5) from line 4:

59898a6148a70_2017-08-0811_54_12-Fotos.p

 

then just put in 300€ as "selbst ermitteltelter Betrag".

 

46 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

He has a bunch of second-hand machines there too, but I don't think he has receipts from them. If he did though, where would those go? 11. Büroausstattung?

 

Nope, "Andere", i.e. line 12 in "Anlage AVEÜR".

 

46 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Do I need to write something in "Sammelposten"? (not sure what this means)

 

No, you don't use that.

 

The Sammelposten is something complicated, and not very useful.

It allows you, to, instead of simply claiming for stuff that cost up to 487.90€ as GWG (= Geringwertige Wirtschaftsgüter), to lump stuff that costs between 150€ and 1,000€ (prices without VAT) into a Sammelposten (= pot) and then to depreciate that pot over 5 years.
Just to be clear, you can't put some stuff into GWG and other stuff into a Sammelposten - if you choose Sammelposten, you have to put all the stuff that was 150€ and  1,000€ that you bought that year into that Sammelposten, or depreciate it individually with the depreciation period laid down in the AfA-Tabelle, no use of the GWG privilege then!
It's all laid down in §6 Absatz 2a EStG

 

The Sammelposten is nearly never advantageous, only for stuff that has very long depreciation periods, e.g. office furniture has a depreciation period of 13 years, so if you bought mainly pieces of office furniture at 1,000€ that year, it's better for you to lump them into a Sammelposten since then you get to depreciate them over 5 years instead of over 13 years like you normally would.

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Ok, I filled the values as I said into the Anlageverzeichnis but they didn't show up in Line 28, so I will write 300€ as the "selbst ermitteltelter Betrag". But I still have to fill in the Anlageverzeichnis, right?

 

Is this correct? What are "Zugänge" and " AfA Auflösungsbetrag"?AfA.png.550f78dab23abccb3122e4c594eae138

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Yes, you always have to fill in  "Anlage AVEÜR.

 

Abgänge is when you sell that building, so that's wrong.

You have to put it instead into the column "AfA" = "Absetzung für Abnutzung" = depreciation.

Auflösungsbetrag is just another term for AfA.

 

Zugänge = if you bought something depreciable that year, fill in there (and into the column Anschaffungskosten!) how much it cost.

 

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2 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

You have to put it instead into the column "AfA" = "Absetzung für Abnutzung" = depreciation.

Ok, great! Now it appears in Line 28. 

 

2 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Abgänge is when you sell that building, so that's wrong.

Zugänge = if you bought something depreciable that year, how much it cost.

Ahh, so that means that Line 4 Gebäude could be multiple buildings, and if you sell one you put it in Abgänge, and if you buy one, you put it in Zugänge?

 

So if he built the building in 2016, then would it look like this instead?AfA2.png.0405ec1b58de655bf2144f02f7cadfd

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Ok, I think I'm about finished, just a few last questions:

 

1. Where do tools go? Tools that he used in his workshop.

2. Are there any special requirements of his salary slips for his workers? I think he just paid them cash, so is it enough for him to write his own salary slip with the amount on it, or does it need to be some kind of official salary slip?

3. Is it a problem that he didn't get receipts for a lot of the materials and products he bought so his Line 25 (Line 25  Waren, Rohstoffe und Hilfsstoffe einschl. der Nebenkosten ) is pretty low in comparison to his Umsatz? I mean, other than him not being able to deduct those expenses, can he run into trouble for it?

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