Steuer for Ebay Seller -- (no longer a) Kleinunternehmer rules

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Yes, he also has to forward VAT on the shipping costs, this is laid down in Abschnitt 3.10 Absatz 5 UStAE:

"(5) Nebenleistungen teilen umsatzsteuerrechtlich das Schicksal der Hauptleistung

 

his is the reason why all online shops charge higher shipping fees than they pay to DHL/Deutsche Post to cover this VAT. The postage services that you buy from DHL/Deutsche Post do not carry VAT, so there's not even any VAT to get back there.

 

If you use a different mail provider than DHL/Deutsche Post, e.g. DPD, or GLS or Hermes, their invoices contain 19% VAT, so you don't lose anything: you have to forward the VAT included in that shipping cost, but at the same time get it back because that mail provider's invoice to you included 19% VAT

 

Ok, so I understand that I have to forward VAT on all shipping costs, regardless of shipping service used, unless I'm shipping to an EU company or non-EU country, but that I will get this VAT back on shipping services other than DHL/Deutsche post because they charge VAT to me. But does this count as part of net turnover and go in line 26, field 81 as part of net sales? And are shipping costs to EU businesses part of line 41, field 21, and shipping costs to non-EU countries part of line 42, field 45?

 

It seems strange to me that shipping costs would be part of turnover, because you aren't bringing anything in.

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Also, are there any rules regarding the invoice numbers? Can I just use the year, month, and day, for example?

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34 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Ok, so I understand that I have to forward VAT on all shipping costs, regardless of shipping service used, unless I'm shipping to an EU company or non-EU country, but that I will get this VAT back on shipping services other than DHL/Deutsche post because they charge VAT to me. But does this count as part of net turnover and go in line 26, field 81 as part of net sales? And are shipping costs to EU businesses part of line 41, field 21, and shipping costs to non-EU countries part of line 42, field 45?

 

It seems strange to me that shipping costs would be part of turnover, because you aren't bringing anything in.

 

Yes to all.

Think of it like this: that shipping becomes an integral part of your product, since without that shipping, your product couldn't reach the customer.

 

And remember, the Zoll also charges you the Einfuhrumsatzsteuer on the (price + shipping) of the products that you had sent from outside Europe to Germany, so you see, they apply the same reasoning.

 

20 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Also, are there any rules regarding the invoice numbers? Can I just use the year, month, and day, for example?

 

Yes, you could use that, but if you wrote more than one invoice on that day, you have to add something to that number 2017-05-10 to differentiate them since every invoice number has to be unique, e.g. if you wrote 2 invoices today, they could be:

  • 2017-05-10-001, and
  • 2017-05-10-002

For an overview of what an invoice number can look like, please see here: https://www.papierkram.de/aktuelles/rechnungsnummern/

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Yes, you could use that, but if you wrote more than one invoice on that day, you have to add something to that number 2017-05-10 to differentiate them since every invoice number has to be unique, e.g. if you wrote 2 invoices today, they could be:

  • 2017-05-10-001, and
  • 2017-05-10-002

Great! That's exactly what I did.

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  • 2017-05-10-001, and
  • 2017-05-10-002

Do I have to add the dashes or is it ok that I wrote: 20170316001 and 20170316002?

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Another possibly nit-picky thing: I see we have to write all kinds of dates on the invoice:

  • Rechnungsdatum
  • Bestelldatum
  • Zahldatum
  • Lieferdatum

Is it a problem if I write the Rechnungsdatum as the date that I type the Rechnung up on the computer and then fill out the Lieferdatum on the date when I print and ship the Rechnung with the product? Or does the Rechnungsdatum have to be the same as the Lieferdatum?

 

Thanks!

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I went back and found some Hermes "Auftragsbestätigung" that have a sticker that says "Quittung" on it. It lists the tracking numbers of the items sent and gives a "Gesamtbetrag", for example: 13,79 EUR but nowhere does it list Umsatzsteuer... Does that mean they actually don't charge Umsatzsteuer? Or should I calculate it off the Gesamtbetrag myself?

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Yes, don't worry, the dashes are not mandatory ;)

 

The invoice has to include the Lieferdatum, i.e. the date you brought it to DHL/Deutsche Post/Hermes/and so on. If you type the Rechnung at an earlier time, you will have two different dates in there.

This is laid down in the section of the law that states what an invoice has to contain, §14 Absatz 4 Nr. 6: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ustg_1980/__14.html

 

They do include VAT, but Hermes seems to like breaking VAT law (they have to state the included VAT rate, by law!) and no longer states it on invoices for private persons: http://www.posttip.de/pakete/news/hermes-weist-mehrwertsteuer-nicht-mehr-aus/

Unfortunately, this also means you cannot get back VAT on those old invoices, since §15 Absatz 1 Nr. 1 UStG states a prequisite for getting back VAT that he got a "proper" invoice according to §14 UStG, i.e. one that includes a statement on the VAT rate that's contained.

Next time, he should state on the Hermes form that he's a Gewerbetreibender, he will then get a "correct" invoice.

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If he sold a machine from his workshop in Vietnam because he didn't need it anymore via the same eBay account, does that count towards his Umsatz?

 

 

No.

 

 

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I also noticed he sold his old iPhone among his sales... does this need to count towards his business turnover or his 2016 income since it was a private sale?

No.

 

Also, there were some other machines or tools that he sold via that account but were just things he owned, not things that he bought for resale... do these also count towards Umsatz? Does he have to show proof that they were his own private items? ( I doubt he had receipts for any of them as they were things he had laying around for years, that he got from friends or got from the fleamarket)

 

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No, those were private sales.

 

If it were a business sale, that machine would have appeared in the Anlagenverzeichnis and you would have depreciated a percentage of its cost every year.

 

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No, those were private sales.

 

If it were a business sale, that machine would have appeared in the Anlagenverzeichnis and you would have depreciated a percentage of its cost every year.

 

 

Sorry... not just machines, also tools... Tools that he had lying around the house because machining isn't just his business but his hobby. Tools that he wasn't using to produce parts. And I believe the majority of these things were under €400  (I know you said that Anlagegüter are things with a value over €400 something).

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I'm not sure if I made myself understood... What I mean is, in addition to making the odd sale of 1. an iPhone (which you explained doesn't count towards Umsatz) or 2. a machine used in his workshop in Vietnam (which you explained does not count towards Umsatz, but counts as part of his profit/loss), he also sold some tools and machines he had lying around the house in Germany from his hobby-- tools and machines that were not intentionally bought for resale and that he wasn't using in his workshop in Vietnam for manufacturing-- via his eBay account. Do these need to count towards his Umsatz, and if not, do I need some sort of proof that they were private sales? Thanks!

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On an interesting note, he just got an invoice along with a purchase made on eBay from a German company which says "Umsatzsteuerbefreit nach &4 Abs. 19a UStG"... It was for some electrical wires... I thought companies in Germany selling to both private and business companies in Germany always had to charge Umsatzsteuer?

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55 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

I'm not sure if I made myself understood... What I mean is, in addition to making the odd sale of 1. an iPhone (which you explained doesn't count towards Umsatz) or 2. a machine used in his workshop in Vietnam (which you explained does not count towards Umsatz, but counts as part of his profit/loss), he also sold some tools and machines he had lying around the house in Germany from his hobby-- tools and machines that were not intentionally bought for resale and that he wasn't using in his workshop in Vietnam for manufacturing-- via his eBay account. Do these need to count towards his Umsatz, and if not, do I need some sort of proof that they were private sales? Thanks!

 

If these weren't items for which he claimed the purchase price for his business, they are private and therefore irrelevant here.

 

51 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

On an interesting note, he just got an invoice along with a purchase made on eBay from a German company which says "Umsatzsteuerbefreit nach &4 Abs. 19a UStG"... It was for some electrical wires... I thought companies in Germany selling to both private and business companies in Germany always had to charge Umsatzsteuer?

 

They have to charge VAT unless they fall under one of the exemptions listed in §4 UStG, for example, medical doctors do not charge VAT because they fall under the VAT exemption in §4 Nr. 14a) UStG.

 

Let's look up §4 Nr. 19a UStG:

" sind steuerfrei:

19. a) die Umsätze der Blinden, die nicht mehr als zwei Arbeitnehmer beschäftigen. Nicht als Arbeitnehmer gelten der Ehegatte, der eingetragene Lebenspartner, die minderjährigen Abkömmlinge, die Eltern des Blinden und die Lehrlinge. Die Blindheit ist nach den für die Besteuerung des Einkommens maßgebenden Vorschriften nachzuweisen. Die Steuerfreiheit gilt nicht für die Lieferungen von Energieerzeugnissen im Sinne des § 1 Abs. 2 und 3 des Energiesteuergesetzes und Branntweinen, wenn der Blinde für diese Erzeugnisse Energiesteuer oder Branntweinabgaben zu entrichten hat, und für Lieferungen im Sinne der Nummer 4a Satz 1 Buchstabe a Satz 2,"

 

This means that turnover (excepting the sale of electricity and strong spirits=alcohol) generated by blind people who only have up to 2 employees is exempted from VAT.

 

Congrats, you just helped a blind person by placing that order.

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He has a bunch of Western Union slips where he transferred money to Vietnam... I don't see VAT anywhere on them, is this another case like Hermes where he needs to specifically request a receipt with VAT on it? Or is VAT not collected on money orders? Or is it because the receiver is in Vietnam that it then becomes a VAT free transaction?

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On 2017-5-10 16:59:53, MLmunich said:

peaking of this, my very first invoice happens to be to an EU business. I just wrote them and got their VAT ID :)

 Is it enough to write: "innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung" somewhere on the invoice or do I need to translate it into English and/or include it in a full sentence with references to some laws?

 

On 2017-5-10 17:09:13, MLmunich said:

Right, thank you. In line 41, field 21.

 

Just double-checked that, that's the wrong place, sorry. That would be the place if you had delivered a service to an EU business (sonstige Leistung, reverse charge, i.e. Umkehr der Steuerschuldnerschaft).

 

However, since you delivered a product, i.e. did an innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung, the correct place in the Umsatzsteuer-Voranmeldung is line 20, field 41. Got them mixed up, sorry.

591e054327379_Screenshot2017-05-18at22.3

 

In the Zusammenfassende Meldung, choose "Innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung", since you delivered a product (screen shot from ElsterOnline.de, it looks a bit different in ElsterFormular): 

591e06a977249_Screenshot2017-05-18at22.3

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Long time no see, I was busy with the baby who arrived a couple weeks ago! I'm back at it with the VAT announcements and looking back through our chat to recap on the info again. Is this correct:


Line 20, field 41: Sales to EU business customers INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS

Line 26, field 81: Net sales (not including VAT) to German business and private customers and EU private customers INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS

Line 33, field 89: Fictive VAT collected on sales to EU businesses

Line 42, field 45: Sales to non-EU countries INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS

Line 56, field 66: All VAT paid on purchases from German businesses

Line 58, field 62: Einfuhrumsatzsteuer paid

Line 67, field 61: Fictive VAT collected on sales to EU businesses

 

Is that everything I need to fill in?

 

Except for the Zusammenfassende Meldung. I'm not quite sure what that is and how often I have to submit it?

 

Thanks :-)

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