Steuer for Ebay Seller -- (no longer a) Kleinunternehmer rules

213 posts in this topic

By the way, I just noticed a couple of things!

 

I noticed that his eBay invoices go from the 15th of each month to the 15th of the next month. So his January 2017 invoice actually includes sales from mid-December 2016 to mid-December 2017. When submitting the January 2017 VAT announcement should I just include all sales for January then (half are on the January invoice, half are on the February invoice) and not include the sales from December?

 

Secondly, I noticed that he has three invoices on eBay that go back to 2015: October, November, and December 2015. However, the total income is only 2478,84, making the 2015 pro-rated income only 12/3*2478,84 = €9915,36. So I believe this has no influence and leaves us in the same place:

Quote
  • If someone earned 17,499€ or less in Umsatz last year and 17,500€-49,999€ in Umsatz this year, then they don't have to charge or pay Umsatzsteuer last year or this year, but do have to pay it the next year.

So he is not obligated to charge VAT in 2016 (although he can if he wants to), and is only obligated to charge it in 2017, right?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

What I meant was, you had said maybe it would be more economical to go back and submit VAT announcements for 2016, in which case I would have to include VAT in my 2016 invoices. I'll wait until I go back and calculate whether that is worth it before I write all the 2016 invoices.

 

Ok.

 

22 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

So I'm looking and for the €900 sale to a Japanese customer in January, he doesn't have any shipping paperwork because he used a company in Vietnam to ship the item from Vietnam to Japan. He just has a shipping number they provided to him which, when I entered into the Fedex website, still works. However when I look up this tracking protocol all you see is that the item with tracking number 811115593278 was sent from Ho Chi Minh and arrived in Japan. There are no other details as to what the item was, who exactly received it, etc. Is this enough?

 

Yes, that's enough.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

I noticed that his eBay invoices go from the 15th of each month to the 15th of the next month. So his January 2017 invoice actually includes sales from mid-December 2016 to mid-December 2017. When submitting the January 2017 VAT announcement should I just include all sales for January then (half are on the January invoice, half are on the February invoice) and not include the sales from December?

 

Correct.

 

4 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Secondly, I noticed that he has three invoices on eBay that go back to 2015: October, November, and December 2015. However, the total income is only 2478,84, making the 2015 pro-rated income only 12/3*2478,84 = €9915,36. So I believe this has no influence and leaves us in the same place:

Quote
  • If someone earned 17,499€ or less in Umsatz last year and 17,500€-49,999€ in Umsatz this year, then they don't have to charge or pay Umsatzsteuer last year or this year, but do have to pay it the next year.

So he is not obligated to charge VAT in 2016 (although he can if he wants to), and is only obligated to charge it in 2017, right?

 

Correct.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, they cannot.

 

Please remember:

  1. Umsatz = turnover = what he takes in from his customers
  2. Gewinn = profit = turnover - expenses

These ebay fees are expenses, which will therefore lower his profit.

They do not affect his turnover at all.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If his customers buy something but return it and get their money back, does that original purchase still count towards the turnover/Umsatz?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also noticed he sold his old iPhone among his sales... does this need to count towards his business turnover or his 2016 income since it was a private sale?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MLmunich said:

If his customers buy something but return it and get their money back, does that original purchase still count towards the turnover/Umsatz?


No, because of Abschnitt 1.1 Absatz 4 UStAE:

(4) Ein Leistungsaustausch liegt nicht vor, wenn eine Lieferung rückgängig gemacht wird (Rückgabe). 

 

1 hour ago, MLmunich said:

I also noticed he sold his old iPhone among his sales... does this need to count towards his business turnover or his 2016 income since it was a private sale?

 

No.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If he sold a machine from his workshop in Vietnam because he didn't need it anymore via the same eBay account, does that count towards his Umsatz?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No.

 

But he would have to declare the profit (= selling_price - book_price) as a "Gewinn aus Anlagenabgang" if he sold it above its book value as part of his business profit.

Conversely, if he sold it below book value, he would declare the loss as a "Verlust aus Anlagenabgang".

 

At the same time, you depreciate all of its remaining book price.

 

If you are unclear about what a book price is, please see here:

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, there were some other machines or tools that he sold via that account but were just things he owned, not things that he bought for resale... do these also count towards Umsatz?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sales of Anlagegüter, e.g. of machines and tools that he used for his business never count towards his Umsatz, see §19 Absatz 1 UStG:

gekürzt um die darin enthaltenen Umsätze von Wirtschaftsgütern des Anlagevermögens

 

If he had been a trader whose business it was to buy/sell these kinds of machines, they would count.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so I think I've finally finished his 2017 VAT announcements... only have to submit and pay up!

 

2016 ended up not being worth doing VAT announcements, he would owe about €1000 if I did.

 

And now I'm going back to write all of the invoices for 2017 first and then 2016. I'm looking at invoices he received when he ordered things off eBay as a reference and they all provide:

 

1. The address of the seller and VAT ID

2. The address of the customer

3. The invoice number

4. The invoice date

5. A listing of products bought and their: 

  • Pos (not sure what this is?)
  • article number
  • product description
  • quantity
  • price
  • sum

6. A calculation of the total price 

  • net price
  • VAT 
  • gross price
  • shipping cost

What I noticed is that most people list the shipping cost as part of the total price and calculate the VAT including the shipping cost... So, for example:

 

Gesamt 34,95

Versandkosten 4,95

Gesamt-Brutto 39,90

Netto 33,53

MwSt. 6,37

 

Does that mean that shipping costs count towards his Umsatz too :(?! And he has to forward VAT on shipping to the Finanzamt also?! I don't understand why shipping would count as your turnover and you would have to send 19% of it to the Finanzamt, then you don't even have enough money to pay for the shipping...

 

7. The payment method

8. Some invoices give bank details at the bottom... is this safe and necessary?

 

Thank you!!!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pos. means Position, e.g. Pos. 1 is the first item on the invoice, Pos. 2 the second, and so on.

 

Yes, he also has to forward VAT on the shipping costs, this is laid down in Abschnitt 3.10 Absatz 5 UStAE:

"(5) Nebenleistungen teilen umsatzsteuerrechtlich das Schicksal der Hauptleistung"

 

This is the reason why all online shops charge higher shipping fees than they pay to DHL/Deutsche Post to cover this VAT. The postage services that you buy from DHL/Deutsche Post do not carry VAT, so there's not even any VAT to get back there.

 

If you use a different mail provider than DHL/Deutsche Post, e.g. DPD, or GLS or Hermes, their invoices contain 19% VAT, so you don't lose anything: you have to forward the VAT included in that shipping cost, but at the same time get it back because that mail provider's invoice to you included 19% VAT.

 

By the way, you apparently haven't yet noticed that ebay also charges its commission on the shipping fee:

"Die Verkaufsprovision berechnet sich zukünftig nach den Gesamtkosten, die für den Käufer entstehen, also nach dem Verkaufspreis zzgl. Verpackungs- und Versandkosten."

so you always made a loss there, even when he was only a Kleinunternehmer. 

 

Please don't forget that he also has to list the buyer's VAT ID in the invoice when he sells to EU companies, and that invoices have to include the various "phrases" describing what kind of sale it was, i.e. innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung or Ausfuhrlieferung.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This is the reason why all online shops charge higher shipping fees than they pay to DHL/Deutsche Post to cover this VAT. The postage services that you buy from DHL/Deutsche Post do not carry VAT, so there's not even any VAT to get back there.

Ok, he does mostly use DHL/Deutsche Post, so it's unfortunate that he has to collect VAT on shipping costs but will not get it back. I didn't know that online shops charge higher shipping fees than they pay to DHL/Deutsche Post. I will have to figure out how to adjust this in his eBay settings somewhere.

 

How much higher are you allowed to set the shipping costs: exactly enough to cover the 19% or the next nice number? For example, if the real shipping costs are €5,99, should he charge €6,95 to cover the €,96 lost? If the real shipping cost plus VAT were a strange number like €5,42, then should I round up to €5,50, for example?

 

Quote

Please don't forget that he also has to list the buyer's VAT ID in the invoice when he sells to EU companies, and that invoices have to include the various "phrases" describing what kind of sale it was, i.e. innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung or Ausfuhrlieferung.

Speaking of this, my very first invoice happens to be to an EU business. I just wrote them and got their VAT ID :)

 Is it enough to write: "innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung" somewhere on the invoice or do I need to translate it into English and/or include it in a full sentence with references to some laws?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MLmunich said:

How much higher are you allowed to set the shipping costs: exactly enough to cover the 19% or the next nice number? For example, if the real shipping costs are €5,99, should he charge €6,95 to cover the €,96 lost? If the real shipping cost plus VAT were a strange number like €5,42, then should I round up to €5,50, for example?

 

Since the shipping costs at ebay are also meant to cover packaging costs, it really is your own decision how high you set them.

 

2 minutes ago, MLmunich said:

Is it enough to write: "innergemeinschaftliche Lieferung" somewhere on the invoice

Yes, that phrase and their VAT ID is enough as an explanation why you do not charge VAT on that invoice.

 

Don't forget that you will also have to declare that amount in the Umsatzsteuer-Voranmeldung for May.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Don't forget that you will also have to declare that amount in the Umsatzsteuer-Voranmeldung for May.

Right, thank you. In line 41, field 21.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now