Turkey referendum predictions

119 posts in this topic

39 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

zeino, German journalist of die Welt is in prison, and he is charged with something ridiculous  like „planning a terrorist attack“. The editor of Cumcuriet is in Germany because in Turkey he is also charged with some bullshit.

 

This fact alone determines what Germans think about Erdogan. We may have zero knowledge about Turkey and its system, but these facts for us are enough to call a dictator a dictator. The term is not eroded. We just do not put journalists in jail in Europe, because they are the „fourth power“. In Germany journalists have power, last time they were somehow persecuted was in 1962, and the result of it was that the defense minister had to leave the government. He didn't say that Adenauer also knew about it, that's why the Chancellor kept his office.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about "you" or people in Germany Yourkeau. Great respect for anyone who feels a democratic worry any time. People don't have to spend their lives following world affairs. They learn about things at some point, they have a reaction, they have an opinion. There is no "where were you?" with people in my understanding. And I obviously know how Germany treats journalists. In terms of European and other western political institutions or leaders, do you really not know why I'm saying this? 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Simple connection. Turks living in Germany have totally different motivation when voting for the dictator back home. For them it is a symbol of nostalgia. But would any of them really like to live under Erdogan? My answer is: no.

That is very true.

 

They don't live there therefore the Yes vote will not affect their relatively well-off lives in Europe.

 

if they love Erdogan so much, why dont they go back to Turkey and live there.

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5 hours ago, zeino said:

 

It is the youngest generation I think that is the most frustrated in some senses. Their mother tongue is German, they have seen Turkey a couple of times in their lives, cannot speak much Turkish in some instances. What caused this generation to be like this? Is it only Turkishness really? A feeling of non-belonging does not come from being Turkish only I think. They are culturally excluded in Turkey, too. Nobody seems to accept that youth. 

Their mother tongue is Turkish. And they are treated like gods in Turkey, like everyone who lives in the West.

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7 hours ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

That doesn't explain the difference between Turks in several countries in continental Western Europe and Turks elsewhere, including GB and other continental countries like Spain.  The explanation to me is that the Turks in Germany, Netherlands, etc, were using the vote as a way of giving the middle finger to the majority who they feel has never accepted them as Turks living in, well, Germany, Netherlands,etc.

Which only proves the fact how stupid they are because they don't seems to realize what this referendum is about.

 

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5 hours ago, yourkeau said:

On the other hand: this bullshit from liberal politicians I can't hear any more: „This is the read line. If E. introduces death penalty, we will stop negotiations about EU membership.“

 

Do you really think the Turkish people are idiots? There will be no EU membership, everyone understands this. Stop lying, because your lies elected Erdogan in the first place! Give Turkey real place in Europe!

 

No, thanks!

They do not fulfill the requirements and they will never do.

The EU has enough of its own problems.

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9 hours ago, yourkeau said:

This fact alone determines what Germans think about Erdogan. We may have zero knowledge about Turkey and its system, but these facts for us are enough to call a dictator a dictator. The term is not eroded.

 

 

It is possible to be critical of the referendum and the general direction of Turkey without resorting to hyperbole, especially if you have limited knowledge.

 

9 hours ago, yourkeau said:

We just do not put journalists in jail in Europe, because they are the „fourth power“. In Germany journalists have power, last time they were somehow persecuted was in 1962, and the result of it was that the defense minister had to leave the government. He didn't say that Adenauer also knew about it, that's why the Chancellor kept his office.

 

 

I believe it is safe to assume that the BND vacuums up all internet traffic and monitors every single phone call in Germany similar to what is done in other liberal western democracies.   

 

Carry on.

 

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15 minutes ago, SA618 said:

I believe it is safe to assume that the BND vacuums up all internet traffic and monitors every single phone call in Germany similar to what is done in other liberal western democracies.   

Sorry, don't get. Is it sarcasm or serious? Either way I do not understand what are you criticizing me for.

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3 hours ago, klubbnika said:

 

No, thanks!

They do not fulfill the requirements and they will never do.

The EU has enough of its own problems.

That should be told openly. What the EU did to Turkey were empty promises and threats to stop negotiations about joining. And then these politicians are frankly surprised when anti EU politicians are elected in Turkey.

 

EU should start telling the truth. Not only to Turkey, to own people as well. Otherwise there will be more brexits.

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13 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

That should be told openly. What the EU did to Turkey were empty promises and threats to stop negotiations about joining. And then these politicians are frankly surprised when anti EU politicians are elected in Turkey.

 

EU should start telling the truth. Not only to Turkey, to own people as well. Otherwise there will be more brexits.

Turkey is welcome into the EU if they fulfill the criteria.

It has a choice either to work towards the fulfillment of the criteria or not.

At the moment, it seems like they will never do it or even want to.

Anti-EU politicians are also very popular in the EU, it doesn't really mean anything in this context.

 

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7 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Sorry, don't get. Is it sarcasm or serious? Either way I do not understand what are you criticizing me for.

 

It is disingenuous to trumpet the virtues of a free press when reporters in "liberal western democracies" are almost certainly monitored by the government or intel services.  

 

In my opinion, German journalists do not speak truth to power.    

 

 

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6 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Anti-EU politicians are also very popular in the EU, it doesn't really mean anything in this context.

Anti EU politicians in the EU and outside of EU have a bit different agenda. Those who are popular in the EU are not anti EU, they want less EU, but not leave it completely (apart from the obvious case of UK). Anti EU politicians in, for example, Switzerland or Norway, still want some kind of agreement with the EU.

 

6 minutes ago, SA618 said:

 

 

It is disingenuous to trumpet the virtues of a free press when reporters in "liberal western democracies" are almost certainly monitored by the government or intel services.  

 

In my opinion, German journalists do not speak truth to power.    

 

 

Alles klar.

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2 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Anti EU politicians in the EU and outside of EU have a bit different agenda. Those who are popular in the EU are not anti EU, they want less EU, but not leave it completely (apart from the obvious case of UK). Anti EU politicians in, for example, Switzerland or Norway, still want some kind of agreement with the EU.

How is it relevant to Turkey's referendum?

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5 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

How is it relevant to Turkey's referendum?

Time will show. Erdogan seems to be willing introduce death penalty just to show fuck you to the EU.

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

Time will show. Erdogan seems to be willing introduce death penalty just to show fuck you to the EU.

 

is that an answer to this?

 

1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

Anti EU politicians in the EU and outside of EU have a bit different agenda. Those who are popular in the EU are not anti EU, they want less EU, but not leave it completely (apart from the obvious case of UK). Anti EU politicians in, for example, Switzerland or Norway, still want some kind of agreement with the EU.

 

It has no mentioning of Turkey whatsoever.

 

Besides, "Those who are popular in the EU are not anti EU" , really?

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35 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Besides, "Those who are popular in the EU are not anti EU" , really?

Really.

 

If you want to state otherwise, please show me Hungary's exit application, for example.

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You are mixing up the parties that want less EU involvment with a total anti-EU stance, like AFD.

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13 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

You are mixing up the parties that want less EU involvment with a total anti-EU stance, like AFD.

I mix nothing. AfD is not popular.

 

No popular (=has chances to be or is in the government) party is anti EU.

 

P.S. And „anti EU“ AfD deputies have no problem with receiving 6000 euro salary in the European Parliament. Parties which participate in EP elections and sit/can sit there are not anti EU by definition.

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19 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

 Parties which participate in EP elections and sit/can sit there are not anti EU by definition.

 

Right, so UKIP are by your logic totally pro europe?  There is nothing stopping someone who is opposed to a system from participating in it, in fact other than outright revolution that is the only way to actually change a politcal system you disagree with.

 

24 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

I mix nothing. AfD is not popular.

 

How are you defining popular? To the best of my knowledge AfD have polled as high as about 15% in the past year which if we think in UK terms is about as popular as the SNP, LibDems and the greens put together.

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4 hours ago, klubbnika said:

Turkey is welcome into the EU if they fulfill the criteria.

It has a choice either to work towards the fulfillment of the criteria or not.

At the moment, it seems like they will never do it or even want to.

Anti-EU politicians are also very popular in the EU, it doesn't really mean anything in this context.

 

 

This is not really true.  Considerable sectors of European politics were not interested in the condition that Turkey fulfilled all criteria of the acquis, so that they would be put in the position of having to reject a compliant member.  The admission of Cyprus before Turkey was basically the death-knell for the Turkish accession process, because it meant that the EU had deliberately taken sides in an international conflict involving a prospective member (because the negotiation stance of the Greek Cypriots would essentially become part of the EU negotiating position).  It couldn't have been more clear.

 

I'm sad about the whole thing and have been since the 90s when I started taking the whole subject seriously.  Turkish EU admission would have been a very important step in bridging one of humanity's major divides, and demonstrating that nations of allegedly incompatible beliefs and cultures can still live under a single political umbrella -- something we're going to have to figure out how to do, somehow, through some other means now.

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