Erdogan calls Dutch as well as Germans 'Nazis'

191 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, SA618 said:

If the German Government tried to pass a resolution regarding the colonial crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Belgians, French, Spanish, British or Dutch, there would be diplomatic crises of epic proportions.

 

There is no need to pass a resolution about these crimes as they have been acknowledged by the respective countries and apologized for.

 

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1 hour ago, SA618 said:

If you use a 10-20 year outlook instead of a 2 year outlook, Turkey is rising and will continue to rise.   Tourism will bounce back in a few years.  In the short term, Turkey is still acting as a gatekeeper for refugees pouring out of the middle east, and that is good for some leverage. 

 

Based on which metrics? Erdogan has ensured he'll be President until 2029 and/or until he dies. The country has a shrinking Turkish population and rapidly rising Kurdish population, hence Erdogan's call for every Turkish woman to have a minimum of three children. This will almost certainly lead to a bloody civil war, especially considering Turkey is already fighting a de facto civil war with the PKK. Once those demographics turn critical in the next 15-20 years, it could very truly be disastrous for stability.


I've never personally seen a country rise to become an economic power based off tourism, nor have I ever heard of a country that intentionally undermined its education system for political purposes that turned into an economic power. There are serious structural problems in the country that will keep it in the middle, while its Gulf neighbors continue to prosper. Turkey has historically and continues to be horrifically mismanaged. Taking a 10-20 year outlook, the country is facing an increasingly bloody battle with its rapidly growing Kurdish minority, an intentionally frail education system complete with a political purge of academics and teachers, and no real investment in the future economy. So, I'd really love to know which metrics you think are evidence of a rising economic power in 10-20 years. North Korea has an impressive military; I don't think anyone would consider it a power.

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36 minutes ago, SA618 said:

Nobody gives a flying rat's tail about the Armenians except the Armenians.

 

Plenty of civilised countries in the world disagree with you:
 

Quote

 

 

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16 minutes ago, bramble said:

Plenty of civilised countries in the world disagree with you:

 

Now the question remains, with so many countries recognizing this, I wonder why Turkey hasn't been forced to pay any reparations yet? I mean just "recognition" gives the Armenians who lost their people, nothing as a compensation.

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34 minutes ago, Erdmann said:

 

Now the question remains, with so many countries recognizing this, I wonder why Turkey hasn't been forced to pay any reparations yet? I mean just "recognition" gives the Armenians who lost their people, nothing as a compensation.

 

Actual payment of reparations for large-scale crimes committed by nation-states is comparatively rare. The country in question must first be entailed in a system of enforcible legal obligations that requires it. Sadly, that is uncommon now. And no one has an economic or geostrategic interest in sanctioning e.g. Turkey for it.

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16 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

The country in question must first be entailed in a system of enforcible legal obligations that requires it. Sadly, that is uncommon now.

 

Because it has not been initiated, duh. One starts with Turkey in this day and age.

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52 minutes ago, Erdmann said:

 

Now the question remains, with so many countries recognizing this, I wonder why Turkey hasn't been forced to pay any reparations yet? I mean just "recognition" gives the Armenians who lost their people, nothing as a compensation.

BTW, to be precise it was not only the genocide of Armenians but of other Christians in that area too.

My Lebanese friend's grandmother who was a little girl at that time hid under the bed and managed to avoid being killed and fleed to Lebanon.

The rest of her family was executed.

 

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20 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

Actual payment of reparations for large-scale crimes committed by nation-states is comparatively rare. The country in question must first be entailed in a system of enforcible legal obligations that requires it. Sadly, that is uncommon now. And no one has an economic or geostrategic interest in sanctioning e.g. Turkey for it.

Germany is still paying... why should other countries be an exception?

Once again, a double-standard from EI side.

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59 minutes ago, Erdmann said:

 

Now the question remains, with so many countries recognizing this, I wonder why Turkey hasn't been forced to pay any reparations yet? I mean just "recognition" gives the Armenians who lost their people, nothing as a compensation.

 

4 minutes ago, Erdmann said:

 

Because it has not been initiated, duh. One starts with Turkey in this day and age.

 

For the Armenians there is no lobby with clout, unlike the Israel lobby for instance.

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5 minutes ago, Erdmann said:

 

Because it has not been initiated, duh. One starts with Turkey in this day and age.

 

4 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Germany is still paying... why should other countries be an exception?

Once again, a double-standard from EI side.

 

I never made a statement of "should".  Turkey should pay reparations to descendants of the Armenian genocide.  I gave a statement of fact.  Genocide reparations enforcement is sparse.  Germany pays reparations because the outcome of WWII is that European countries that participated in genocide are bound into a legal framework that requires it and is enforced by courts -- that is just and correct, but it is nevertheless an outcome of the way in which Germany was defeated. 

 

Turkey was defeated in WWI and barely participated in WWII.  Instead, Mustafa Kemal undid aspects of the Turkish WWI defeat, meaning that the present-day Turkish state is partly constructed around avoidance and rejection of claims that might have been made against a defeated Ottoman state.  Changing this will require either a war or massive economic pressure.  No one is willing to have either.  The descendents of Armenian genocide victims have been fighting for it for decades, and they've made progress on the international recognition front, but they don't have the leverage to force Turkey to pay them reparations, unfortunately.

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3 minutes ago, bramble said:

 

 

For the Armenians there is no lobby with clout

 

Yes, precisely.  There is some number of Armenians in the USA in particular who are descendants of the Armenian genocide escapees, but present-day Armenia has little geostrategic value compared to, e.g., Turkey.  The Armenian lobby in the USA in particular is very active and well-organized, but it does not have much more clout than the Turkish embassy.

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1 hour ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

Turkey should pay reparations to descendants of the Armenian genocide.

On what basis?

 

1 hour ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

Germany pays reparations because the outcome of WWII

No, it doesn't. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Germany paid 1 time compensation to all Zwangsarbeiter (who were treated as traitors, that's why USSR didn't demand any payments to them), that was the last payment related to WWII.

 

There is no such law, where descendants are entitled to any kind of compensation with regards to criminal/international criminal law. Descendants only have a right to compensation for property confiscations because property can be inherited. This, however, also wasn't regulated well in Germany: for example, Bavarian courts dismissed compensation claims for confiscations in Berchtesgaden Alps, where Hitler built his residence. On the grounds that the Nazis did pay compensation, although it was way too small and had nothing to do with market prices.

 

Since human beings live not as long as turtles (up to 200 years), I have doubts that there is even one Armenian survivor of that genocide. So, there can be no compensation claim, just moral recognition of the crimes. At the beginning of his political career Erdogan actually carefully suggested to do this (sorry, no source, I just remember I read it sometime somewhere). Apparently decided not to push it.

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42 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

On what basis?

 

The issue is legally complex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_reparations) but the moral case for reparations to descendants of war crimes is strong, in my opinion.  Insofar as we accept that people should inherit goods, harms are also heritable and ought to be made whole if possible.  We can say that the value of the claim depreciates over time and eventually ends up as only a moral claim to recognition, but at what rate should this depreciation take place?

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5 hours ago, klubbnika said:

There is no need to pass a resolution about these crimes as they have been acknowledged by the respective countries and apologized for.

 

 

Who has apologized for genocide?

 

Take Belgium for example.   It has apologized for killing Patrice Lumumba, but not for killing millions of Congolese.

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3 minutes ago, SA618 said:

 

Who has apologized for genocide?

 

Take Belgium for example.   It has apologized for killing Patrice Lumumba, but not for killing millions of Congolese.

 

In fact, Emmanuel Macron was pilloried in France for going on Algerian media and saying the obvious: that the colonization of Algeria involved crimes. He had to walk it back!

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1 hour ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

The issue is legally complex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_reparations) but the moral case for reparations to descendants of war crimes is strong, in my opinion.  Insofar as we accept that people should inherit goods, harms are also heritable and ought to be made whole if possible.  We can say that the value of the claim depreciates over time and eventually ends up as only a moral claim to recognition, but at what rate should this depreciation take place?

Could you name at least one case where descendants got any compensation for crimes done to their ancestors? Given that Europe has always been a bloodbath of nations, if this will be taken into account, then everyone should pay compensations to everyone.

 

I can only think of Native Americans, those in the US still receive some money from the government. But that is not a compensation for crime done to their ancestors, that is rather a compensation for taking their property...

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12 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Could you name at least one case where descendants got any compensation for crimes done to their ancestors? Given that Europe has always been a bloodbath of nations, if this will be taken into account, then everyone should pay compensations to everyone.

 

I can only think of Native Americans, those in the US still receive some money from the government. But that is not a compensation for crime done to their ancestors, that is rather a compensation for taking their property...

 

It's hard to separate the property theft from the war crime in many cases.  In the case of the Armenians, there was definitely a lot of uncompensated property theft.

 

I myself said above that reparations for anything are for "practical" reasons extremely rare.  That doesn't mean that they aren't right.

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Cyprus is a more recent case where lots of properties were confiscated (on both sides). Both sides want unification. But will there be any compensations? I doubt.

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